Ignorance?

[LSK]

One of the reasons we have such confusions over Catholic Teachings is that we had a breakdown in Catechesis during the late 60’s up through the 1990’s. That is starting to change in many places. Once you see a strong teaching of the Catechism in parishes and schools you will see a shift in this area. People will not be as confused as they have been in the past several years.

Another reason there has been a breakdown in knowing exactly what was Catholic Teaching and what was not is because many priests were afraid to preach strongly from the pulpit as to what is the Truth and what is not the Truth. If the people are not taught, and the priests are not preaching how are Catholics supposed to KNOW.

As to what the Church can and cannot do, I suppose we could demand more imposition of excommunication upon Catholics that do not strictly follow Catholic Teachings, but that means that we must be willing to do that across the board, on all issues, and that each Catholic be willing to submit in complete obedience to the teachings of the Holy Mother Church.

Ignorance is one thing - outright defiance is another.

 

[Pug]

Karin:

So where are these people going wrong? Do they not know (hard to believe in this day and age) or do they just not care? Why is the Church not doing anything about it?

I think the Church did do something. They published the CCC. That is a massive improvement! Now there is at least something **officially **promoted as a source of decent answers. We live in the day and age of library science, etc. I think if a Catholic wants answers, they will go looking, and who knows what they will find? They may find Richard P. McBrien’s Catholicm as the best reference at their library and carefully study it. (I did).

If a person starts out with a sufficient base of catechesis, then they will navigate the waters well enough. But if they lack catechesis, they cannot tell the good from the bad, so if they encounter the bad, they flounder. And many of the modern errors are perfect at undermining in a subtle way, so just some error throws it all out of wack. There are many books out there that say they are Catholic, but woe to the person who innocently believes that claim. (I did).

Do not take for granted that a novice Catholic knows what an imprimatur is or knows that such a thing as a papal encyclical exists. They probably have no idea other than reading the Sunday bulletin and taking whatever class the pastor offers during lent for a way to learn more about the faith. Too bad for them if the class is on the enneagram! They’ll take the class gladly, unaware. (I did).

However, things have gotten better since I had to struggle with the problem. Fortunately for me, St. John of the Cross (and other spiritual writers) had already saved me. That, too, was easily publicly available in the library, and I eventually read it. That was orthodox, and turned the tide.

 

[Heart_Of_Mary]

FightingFat:

What about conscience?

Some people prefer to use their brains and think about issues themselves rather than just follow a set of rules. You may think this is a bad thing, but it is a truth none the less. If someone is devout in their belief and has truly thought and prayed about an issue, but come to a conclusion in opposition, as I understand it, they are still wrong, but it is not necessarily a sin.

The catechism has A TON on “conscience” - check this one out - very very interesting (however, it must be noted that it seems this is only ok with some if the conscience lines up with all teaching of the church…hmmmm…this seems pretty clearly to say that we are OBLIGATED to follow our conscience - so do other conscinece references in the Catechism)

**1782 **Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. **“He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”
**

 

[mlchance]

Heart Of Mary:

The catechism has A TON on “conscience”

Yes, it does. It’s funny what one learn when one doesn’t selectively quote the text:

1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path, we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.

1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
• the Golden Rule: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: “Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ.” Therefore “it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble.”

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Heart_Of_Mary]

mlchance:

Conscience does not change or override the truth. Failing to properly conform one’s own conscience to the truth is itself sinful. The Church says IVF and sterilization are wrong. If one’s conscience says otherwise, then one’s conscience is also wrong.

– Mark L. Chance.

So you are saying if one’s conscience goes against official church teaching it is wrong?? Well, that makes no sense at all (and of course we know that EVERYTHING the church teaches and condones ALWAYS makes sense, right?? uh oh - here come the whips…beat me if it will make you feel better ). a conscience is an INDIVIDUAL thing - not a group mind set.

HOM

 

[Church_Militant]

Karin, Now ya know why Catholic Answers is here…

 

[Heart_Of_Mary]

mlchance:

Yes, it does. It’s funny what one learn when one doesn’t selectively quote the text:

1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path, we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1787 Man is sometimes confronted by situations that make moral judgments less assured and decision difficult. But he must always seriously seek what is right and good and discern the will of God expressed in divine law.

1788 To this purpose, man strives to interpret the data of experience and the signs of the times assisted by the virtue of prudence, by the advice of competent people, and by the help of the Holy Spirit and his gifts.

1789 Some rules apply in every case:

• One may never do evil so that good may result from it;
• the Golden Rule: “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them.”
• charity always proceeds by way of respect for one’s neighbor and his conscience: “Thus sinning against your brethren and wounding their conscience . . . you sin against Christ.” Therefore “it is right not to . . . do anything that makes your brother stumble.”

– Mark L. Chance.

Those who think we must BLINDLY follow the teachings of the church without seeking our own conscience can prove their “side” from the Catechism and those who believe that we must all follow an informed conscience even if it is not in line with church teachings can prove their side from the Catechism. It goes both ways. The bottom line is in the end we will ALL BE ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD AND GOD ALONE - PERIOD. I would venture to say that He (God) will be asking us if we used the brain that He so graciously provided for us to seek Him with or did we follow man blindly because we were too weak to think for ourselves?

HOM

 

[mlchance]

Heart Of Mary:

So you are saying if one’s conscience goes against official church teaching it is wrong??

That is exactly correct, and it is precisely what the Church herself teaches. It is intellectually dishonest to cherry pick one paragraph from the CCC to assert something is contrary to what the Church fully teaches.

1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.
Heart Of Mary:

I would venture to say that He (God) will be asking us if we used the brain that He so graciously provided for us to seek Him with or did we follow man blindly because we were too weak to think for ourselves?

HOM

http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[LSK]

Heart Of Mary:

So you are saying if one’s conscience goes against official church teaching it is wrong?? Well, that makes no sense at all (and of course we know that EVERYTHING the church teaches and condones ALWAYS makes sense, right?? uh oh - here come the whips…beat me if it will make you feel better ). a conscience is an INDIVIDUAL thing - not a group mind set.

HOM

If your conscience, as a Catholic, goes against Church teachings then it has not been properly formed.

If you choose, of your own free will to commit sin over and over again then you can wound your conscience so much that you can, eventually, kill it.

One of the things people who do not understand conscience always try to accuse people with properly and well-formed consciences of having is a ‘group mind set’. We don’t. We struggle all the time with moral choices, with the fact that sin usually is hooked into something pleasurable and easy and we struggle with the false promises of what looks like happiness as portrayed by the secular world. What we know is that if we can keep our eyes on the prize - eternal life with Our Lord and Savior - by living the life as outlined by the teachings of His Bride, The Holy Mother Church, then we can be truly happy here and now as well as eternally, and we can withstand the slings and arrows of those who think we are robots and idiots and then dare us to “whip” them in order to make themselves feel better.

Oh and yes, the Church always teaches and condones what makes sense.

 

[Heart_Of_Mary]

mlchance:

Yes, it does. It’s funny what one learn when one doesn’t selectively quote the text:

– Mark L. Chance.

Well, you do have a point there. However, I find it much easier to “selectively quote text” as you put it than to print the whole Catechism each time I use it in an answer. I don’t think CA has that much web space, do you?
HOM

 

[Heart_Of_Mary]

LSK:

Oh and yes, the Church always teaches and condones what makes sense.

If it ALL made sense, then there would be no discussion here or anywhere else where Catholic faith is a topic.

HOM

 

[LSK]

Pug:

I think the Church did do something. They published the CCC. That is a massive improvement! Now there is at least something **officially **promoted as a source of decent answers. We live in the day and age of library science, etc. I think if a Catholic wants answers, they will go looking, and who knows what they will find? They may find Richard P. McBrien’s Catholicm as the best reference at their library and carefully study it. (I did).

If a person starts out with a sufficient base of catechesis, then they will navigate the waters well enough. But if they lack catechesis, they cannot tell the good from the bad, so if they encounter the bad, they flounder. And many of the modern errors are perfect at undermining in a subtle way, so just some error throws it all out of wack. There are many books out there that say they are Catholic, but woe to the person who innocently believes that claim. (I did).

Do not take for granted that a novice Catholic knows what an imprimatur is or knows that such a thing as a papal encyclical exists. They probably have no idea other than reading the Sunday bulletin and taking whatever class the pastor offers during lent for a way to learn more about the faith. Too bad for them if the class is on the enneagram! They’ll take the class gladly, unaware. (I did).

However, things have gotten better since I had to struggle with the problem. Fortunately for me, St. John of the Cross (and other spiritual writers) had already saved me. That, too, was easily publicly available in the library, and I eventually read it. That was orthodox, and turned the tide.

:clapping: I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[LSK]

Heart Of Mary:

If it ALL made sense, then there would be no discussion here or anywhere else where Catholic faith is a topic.

HOM

The Church teaches the Truth. The Truth always makes Sense. The fact that not everyone understands the Truth is a different point. Many of us, at one time or another, have not undertstood the Truth. For instance, you thought that only one paragraph on the conscience in the Catechism meant that every Catholic could follow their own conscience in terms of right and wrong. That is incorrect, and not in line with Catholic teaching. However, many people would make a similar mistake unless they were properly catechized. This does not mean that it does not make sense, it only means that it had not been learned by the person.

 

[Heart_Of_Mary]

mlchance:

That is exactly correct, and it is precisely what the Church herself teaches. It is intellectually dishonest to cherry pick one paragraph from the CCC to assert something is contrary to what the Church fully teaches.

1800 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience.

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif

– Mark L. Chance.

Cherry pick?? Intelectually dishonest? Oh Puhleeez…Why does it bother you guys that someone may want to think for themselves or listen to God and see what HE has to say?? To follow ANY man blindly is just wrong. To be informed, take the advice and teachings into consideration and then listen to God is the way to go. If the church is “always right” then why should we bother thinking for ourselves???Oh right - I just remembered - mindless zombies are easier to control…( and NO - I am not saying those who follow the church are mindless zombies - not by a long stretch. I am saying that those who do not have an INFORMED conscience - which includes church teachings AND listening to God may be easier to control…)

HOM

HOM

 

[Breton]

If you have the time, please read this article by George Cardinal Pell that was published in First Things magazine’s May 2005 edition.

firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0505/articles/pell.html

This quote from the article will give you a taste of what Cardinal Pell has to say:

“But while some see conscience as God’s invitation to embrace His law as free subjects, others see it as a radical call to personal freedom. Indeed, for many people today, the word “conscience” suggests not law at all, but the freedom to judge by our own personal resources and the right to act as we each think best—a rejection, in other words, of the need for morality and creed; a claim that I should be allowed to live as I choose.”

 

[Karin]

LSK:

The Church teaches the Truth. The Truth always makes Sense. The fact that not everyone understands the Truth is a different point. Many of us, at one time or another, have not undertstood the Truth. For instance, you thought that only one paragraph on the conscience in the Catechism meant that every Catholic could follow their own conscience in terms of right and wrong. That is incorrect, and not in line with Catholic teaching. However, many people would make a similar mistake unless they were properly catechized. This does not mean that it does not make sense, it only means that it had not been learned by the person.

So the problem is that people have not been taught properly?
IF that is the case perhaps CCD and RCIA classes need to be reworked so people learn CORRECTLY!

 

[mlchance]

Heart Of Mary:

Cherry pick?? Intelectually dishonest? Oh Puhleeez…Why does it bother you guys that someone may want to think for themselves or listen to God and see what HE has to say??

You want to hear God’s voice? Listen to and heed his Church.
Heart Of Mary:

To follow ANY man blindly is just wrong.

No one other than you has said anything about following anyone blindly. Another form of intellectual dishonesty: the strawman.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Karin]

Heart Of Mary:

Cherry pick?? Intelectually dishonest? Oh Puhleeez…Why does it bother you guys that someone may want to think for themselves or listen to God and see what HE has to say?? To follow ANY man blindly is just wrong. To be informed, take the advice and teachings into consideration and then listen to God is the way to go. If the church is “always right” then why should we bother thinking for ourselves???Oh right - I just remembered - mindless zombies are easier to control…( and NO - I am not saying those who follow the church are mindless zombies - not by a long stretch. I am saying that those who do not have an INFORMED conscience - which includes church teachings AND listening to God may be easier to control…)

HOM

HOM

What man are Catholics following blindly? I thought that they followed GOD.

 

[LSK]

Heart Of Mary:

Cherry pick?? Intelectually dishonest? Oh Puhleeez…Why does it bother you guys that someone may want to think for themselves or listen to God and see what HE has to say?? To follow ANY man blindly is just wrong. To be informed, take the advice and teachings into consideration and then listen to God is the way to go. If the church is “always right” then why should we bother thinking for ourselves???Oh right - I just remembered - mindless zombies are easier to control…( and NO - I am not saying those who follow the church are mindless zombies - not by a long stretch. I am saying that those who do not have an INFORMED conscience - which includes church teachings AND listening to God may be easier to control…)

HOM

HOM

Being a Catholic means that one has decided, of their own free will, to accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic Faith. If you do not accept all the teachings of the Catholic Faith you are not in communion with Rome, then you are not a faithful member of the Church…no one is forcing you to be a member of the Catholic Church. If you don’t want to be a member, don’t…but do not be upset if we point out to you that a well-formed conscience means a conscience that rejects teachings that are not in communion with the teachings of the Holy Mother Church. The Church teaches the Truth. Why would one not want to embrace the Truth?

 

[Breton]

Karin:

So the problem is that people have not been taught properly?
IF that is the case perhaps CCD and RCIA classes need to be reworked so people learn CORRECTLY!

Not just RCIA and CCD classes but seminaries as well. Why are our priest afraid to preach strongly?