Ignorance?

[Church_Militant]

God bless you and console you in all things Gianna. Know in your heart that God loves you and your husband and that you are forgiven.

Y’know, back in the 50’s my Mom was told that she’d never have children after a miscarriage, I was the first of 3 miracles, (my brothers and I).
Pax tecum,

 

[mercygate]

Giannawannabe:

Mark,

I am one of those who underwent IVF, and did not know it was against Church teachings. No one ever told me that it may be wrong. This includes a parish priest, my MIL, mother, and grandmother (all who are well versed in their Catechism). I was a Sunday Catholic who thought I was a good person. I wanted a baby. It seemed okay to use my dh’s sperm and my egg. As stated in another thread, I felt “uncomfortable” with the procedure, but truly didn’t know enough to look into whether it was against Church teachings. Some of you are lucky enough to have been well educated in your faith from the get go. My journey was longer. Once I discovered that dh and I had sinned by undergoing such a procedure, I went to Confession and still to this day feel somewhat guilty. We conceived 2 babies this way—both miscarried. I know that they have souls and are in Heaven waiting for me.
When I asked my mother why she didn’t tell me IVF was wrong–she replied “it wasn’t any of my business”. I make it my business now to tell others who are considering IVF and other reproductive techniques. They may not like to hear it, but I think it is my responsibility to educate—due to my own mistakes.

Ah, B’loved. Nobody can do it better than one who has been there. God can bring good out of ANYTHING, and you are a living witness to that.

 

[koda]

FightingFat:

If someone asked me, I would answer. I don’t go around looking for people to chastise though!

Look, I’m a bad example of most of the people here, I really don’t fit in very well at all, I’m sure that you’ll find lots of people with a nice comfortable right wing enough attitude for you!

God bless!

There seem to be a lot of folks who really delight in pointing out the faults of others (I’m not speaking of anyone in particular nor about only Catholics). This has always been the case because it seems to be human nature. My fear is that we are becoming modern day Pharisees - big on the letter of the law but ignorant about the spirit. I also agree with FF that ultimately things are being the individual and God. We do not know another persons heart. Jesus taught love, compassion and mercy yet many “Christians” seem to ignore these concepts in favor of self-righteousness. It is interesting to remember that Jesus spent most of his time with the sinners - they were the ones willing to listen to him because they knew they were far from perfect. The Pharisees, on the other hand, thught they already knew everything.

 

[Karin]

reen12:

Karin, I have a couple of questions for you.

All quotes by Karin

Would you please clarify for me, what you mean by:
“…get away with…”

Do you mean:
-they still call themselves, and think of themselves,
as Catholic?** YES**
-they still go forward to receive communion? Yes

What does “…ok…” mean, in this context? **OK in the above context means,how do they think it is right, correct accpetable to do this? **

Thanks,

reen12

 

[kamz]

koda:

There seem to be a lot of folks who really delight in pointing out the faults of others (I’m not speaking of anyone in particular nor about only Catholics). This has always been the case because it seems to be human nature. My fear is that we are becoming modern day Pharisees - big on the letter of the law but ignorant about the spirit. I also agree with FF that ultimately things are being the individual and God. We do not know another persons heart. Jesus taught love, compassion and mercy yet many “Christians” seem to ignore these concepts in favor of self-righteousness. It is interesting to remember that Jesus spent most of his time with the sinners - they were the ones willing to listen to him because they knew they were far from perfect. The Pharisees, on the other hand, thught they already knew everything.

EXCELLENT POST :yup: :clapping:

 

[kamz]

Karin, I have a couple of questions for you.

All quotes by Karin

Would you please clarify for me, what you mean by:
“…get away with…”

Do you mean:
-they still call themselves, and think of themselves,
as Catholic? YES
-they still go forward to receive communion? Yes

What does “…ok…” mean, in this context? OK in the above context means,how do they think it is right, correct accpetable to do this?

Thanks,

reen12

---

Karin, I’m sorry, it still comes way across like you are judging?
If you are not sorry but when one reads your posts it seems like you are most certainly passing judgement, you might not like this but it is not up to you Karin to decide what is correct and acceptable, that is up to God. There is a song we sing in our church, it is ALL OUR WELCOME IN THIS PLACE
not some, not just those who don’t sin time and again but All,

Karin, we all go home and have a rant every now and then, and then it hits us, wait a minute, why am I so bothered by this? Why don’t I just instead focus on living my life the way God wants me to live it and being the best person and Catholic I can be and quit worrying about why so and so is taking communion when they shouldn’t be, why? Because, God knows and that is enough, don’t you think he see’s it all Karin and knows it all?? So you need only worry about you and setting the best example for those who are watching you, I figure, when God makes me perfect then I can ask why is this person doing this or that, and guess what?
That isn’t going to happen so I better just bite my tounge and let God deal with the rest

 

[Pug]

thistle:

No its a mortal sin. Its stated in a book I have “How To Make A Good Confession” and carries both Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which means it is free from doctrinal errors.

Perhaps I am not understanding your point, or perhaps we are in disagreement, I can’t tell right now. Here is the sort of information I have behind my thoughts. This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**1859 **Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

It seems to me that it is possible to deny a particular doctrine simply on the grounds that one does not realize that it is part of the deposit of faith. Thus full knowledge would be lacking, and it would not be a mortal sin that the person is committing.

I do not have the particular booklet that you mention. So I cannot place what it says into the context of the whole book. Most booklets of that nature have a section that delineates what is required to meet the burden of a mortal sin, then they go on to list the grave matter and the venial matter in two separate lists. The things in the grave list are not mortal unless the proper conditions are met.

For example, killing an innocent appears in the grave list, but if you go motorboating on the ocean and unbeknownst to you, a scuba diver surfaces under your boat and is killed by the engine, you have not done a mortal sin. You lacked knowledge and consent. Nonetheless, it did happen, sadly.

Of course, if someone is feigning ignorance and claims they didn’t know X was wrong, that is a different ball of wax.

The reason I brought it up is that sometimes it can be distressing for a person (perhaps a lurker) to think they are being accused of a mortal sin when in fact they only did grave matter but not willingly or knowingly.

 

[Breton]

I’m not speaking for Karin here and I agree that ALL ARE WELCOME IN THIS PLACE.

But, not all are welcome to teach in this place if they mislead whether intentional or not. We have a responsibility to the community to evaluate one’s suitablility for teaching in the name of the Church and work to correct or bar those that would mislead through word or action. If you call that judgement, so be it.

 

[kamz]

read the very first post, she is not talking about being allowed to teach, that is for a different thread.

 

[Karin]

kamz:

Karin, I’m sorry, it still comes way across like you are judging? How do I come across as judging?
If you are not sorry but when one reads your posts it seems like you are most certainly passing judgement, you might not like this but it is not up to you Karin to decide what is correct and acceptable, that is up to God.
Once again, I AM NOT!
**I do know that it is not up to me it is up to God and the Church! **

Karin, we all go home and have a rant every now and then, and then it hits us, wait a minute, why am I so bothered by this? Why don’t I just instead focus on living my life the way God wants me to live it and being the best person and Catholic I can be and quit worrying about why so and so is taking communion when they shouldn’t be, why? Because, God knows and that is enough, don’t you think he see’s it all Karin and knows it all?? So you need only worry about you and setting the best example for those who are watching you, I figure, when God makes me perfect then I can ask why is this person doing this or that, and guess what?
That isn’t going to happen so I better just bite my tounge and let God deal with the rest

Yes I am ranting becuase these people that go against Church teaching or pick and choose what they want to follow are in many cases the ones that teach CCD, RCIA etc. I am asking how people who pride themselves on going against church teaching can still consider themselves Catholic?
**Once again, Please pay attention here, I am not judging I am asking how these types of people can still be considered Catholic, how they can teach RCIA and other classes etc. How they can basically SPREAD false teachings and no one says anything…??? **

 

[Karin]

Breton:

I’m not speaking for Karin here and I agree that ALL ARE WELCOME IN THIS PLACE.

But, not all are welcome to teach in this place if they mislead whether intentional or not. We have a responsibility to the community to evaluate one’s suitablility for teaching in the name of the Church and work to correct or bar those that would mislead through word or action. If you call that judgement, so be it.

EXACTLY!
And it is not only in a class setting it is teaching by example…if other Catholics see people or hear about it (as the example ABC and IVF) then they also think it is ok.

 

[kamz]

Yes I am ranting becuase these people that go against Church teaching or pick and choose what they want to follow are in many cases the ones that teach CCD, RCIA etc. I am asking how people who pride themselves on going against church teaching can still consider themselves Catholic?
**Once again, Please pay attention here, I am not judging I am asking how these types of people can still be considered Catholic, how they can teach RCIA and other classes etc. How they can basically SPREAD false teachings and no one says anything…??? **

ok, so this is in your church?? Because you certainly can’t speak for All Catholic churches and if it is so bothersome, why not try to do something about it?? Why start a post about it? I can start a post and ask why does abortion still exsist, why is it allowed, its wrong, its a sin, it is murder and we can all write and agree but in the end, I’ve got to get out and do something, support my local MCCL group, take a stand, march in protests, support pro life groups, vote pro life Senators, govt. etc.
What good is it to ask a question that is only going to get you a bunch of ranting, like, "yeah, why is that allowed? "
Karin, do something, go to your priest and ask him , WHY are you allowing this? Nothing can be done at this board for this situation, all we can do is talk about it but ACTION speaks louder than words, so ACT

 

[Karin]

kamz:

ok, so this is in your church??
Because you certainly can’t speak for All Catholic churches and if it is so bothersome, why not try to do something about it?? Why start a post about it? I can start a post and ask why does abortion still exsist, why is it allowed, its wrong, its a sin, it is murder and we can all write and agree but in the end, I’ve got to get out and do something, support my local MCCL group, take a stand, march in protests, support pro life groups, vote pro life Senators, govt. etc.
What good is it to ask a question that is only going to get you a bunch of ranting, like, "yeah, why is that allowed? "
Karin, do something, go to your priest and ask him , WHY are you allowing this? Nothing can be done at this board for this situation, all we can do is talk about it but ACTION speaks louder than words, so ACT

Well that is funny…go to the priest and tell him this stuff!!!
First lets start with this…

1. 
   *]Both of my kids are catholic one (the eldest)goes through the Catholic school system is in Confirmation class etc.
   *]I AM NOT CATHOLIC - but i still care what my kids are being taught regarding their faith!
   
   *]When I approached the Priest I am told …what do you know you are not even Catholic :banghead: like wait only Catholics know these things!!!
   
   So I ask you what would you like me to do…??? What is the next step???

 

[kamz]

YOUR NOT CATHOLIC???
Disregard everything I have posted

 

[FightingFat]

People are people Karin. They have complicated lives and ideas and aspirations and their current thinking is all tempered by a myriad of experiences we cam only guess at from the outside looking in. Lets not try to hard to tie them down to narrow minded philosphy, but embrace all the wonder of the human experience- God’s great gift to us. Each of us interprets these experiences in our own way, that’s a wonderful thing in my opinion!

 

[kamz]

Karin:

Well that is funny…go to the priest and tell him this stuff!!!
First lets start with this…

1. 
   *]Both of my kids are catholic one (the eldest)goes through the Catholic school system is in Confirmation class etc.
   *]I AM NOT CATHOLIC - but i still care what my kids are being taught regarding their faith!
   
   *]When I approached the Priest I am told …what do you know you are not even Catholic :banghead: like wait only Catholics know these things!!!
   
   So I ask you what would you like me to do…??? What is the next step???

1. 
   Your Not Catholic???
   Ok, I did not know that, wow, that does make it much different, are you becoming Catholic?
   I am Catholic and my kids all four of them Catholic too and the three school aged our in the Catholic school.
   And 1. if you are not Catholic, really, I guess the Priest is correct, your not even Catholic so why are your kids Catholic? Is your hubby Catholic? If so, then he should be the one to ask the questions.
   I fully thought you were Catholic and that does make a difference, if I don’t like how my kids are being taught, it is MY job to do something and to stand up and say something, if not me then who? If the Church is not doing a good job in your eyes you don’t settle, you do something, if this was happening to my kids and nothing would be done, I would pull them out of that school, instead of ranting on a message board about how can these people be allowed to do this or that and still teach or call themselves Catholic, I would take ACTION and take my kids out, believe me I’ve seen parents do it before, what are you trying to get at this point? Others to chime in with you? Of course, in some places this does happen, not all mind you but some but if you won’t take action for your kids then whose fault is that? You can tell us all about it but it will not help your kids, correct?? At the end of the day, your still sending them to a school that you seem unhappy with the situation, so what will this help? Take action, do something, if you don’t like what is going on then you do something, if I was not happy with my kids school teaching, I’d let the priest, teachers, principal know and if that said too bad, man, my kids would be out the door!!!

 

[Karin]

kamz:

Your Not Catholic???

Nope.** Does it shock you that a nonCatholic cares about this stuff? **

kamz:

Ok, I did not know that, wow, that does make it much different, are you becoming Catholic?

Why does that make it different? Not at this time…as the RCIA class is full of corrupted teachings!

kamz:

I am Catholic and my kids all four of them Catholic too and the three school aged our in the Catholic school.

So happy for you My two kids are Catholic and my eldest is in Catholic High School and my youngest (2) is still too young for school but when he is old enough he will also attend like his big brother Catholic school.

kamz:

And 1. if you are not Catholic, really, I guess the Priest is correct, your not even Catholic so why are your kids Catholic? Is your hubby Catholic? If so, then he should be the one to ask the questions.

The Priest in incorrect IMHO. I care becuase they are not being taught properly about their faith and are too young to say so!
My eldest is Catholic becuase my ex-husband is Catholic. My youngest is Catholic because I choose for him to be! Would love him (ex) to speak to someone but he lives across the country…and really could care less-so that leaves me!

kamz:

I fully thought you were Catholic and that does make a difference, if I don’t like how my kids are being taught, it is MY job to do something and to stand up and say something, if not me then who? .

me not being Catholic should not make a difference. I have pointed out to the Priest the errors in the teaching etc. I have stood up and said something…:banghead: so the question is WHAT NOW???

kamz:

If the Church is not doing a good job in your eyes you don’t settle, you do something, if this was happening to my kids and nothing would be done, I would pull them out of that school, instead of ranting on a message board about how can these people be allowed to do this or that and still teach or call themselves Catholic, I would take ACTION and take my kids out, believe me I’ve seen parents do it before, what are you trying to get at this point? .

I think you are confused…I have no issues with my sons high school (IT IS WONDERFUL!!!) I have issues with the Church (Parish) he goes to, is a member of, which I am a member of…that is supposed to teach him about his faith.

kamz:

Of course, in some places this does happen, not all mind you but some but if you won’t take action for your kids then whose fault is that? You can tell us all about it but it will not help your kids, correct?? At the end of the day, your still sending them to a school that you seem unhappy with the situation, so what will this help? Take action, do something, if you don’t like what is going on then you do something, if I was not happy with my kids school teaching, I’d let the priest, teachers, principal know and if that said too bad, man, my kids would be out the door!!!

Once again…I LOVE MY SONS HIGHSCHOOL:thumbsup: it is the PARISH/CHURCH I HAVE ISSUES WITH!!!

 

[kamz]

Karin:

kamz:

Your Not Catholic???

Nope. Does it shock you that a nonCatholic cares about this stuff?

kamz:

Ok, I did not know that, wow, that does make it much different, are you becoming Catholic?

Why does that make it different? Not at this time…as the RCIA class is full of corrupted teachings!

So happy for you My two kids are Catholic and my eldest is in Catholic High School and my youngest (2) is still too young for school but when he is old enough he will also attend like his big brother Catholic school.

The Priest in incorrect IMHO. I care becuase they are not being taught properly about their faith and are too young to say so!
My eldest is Catholic becuase my ex-husband is Catholic. My youngest is Catholic because I choose for him to be! Would love him (ex) to speak to someone but he lives across the country…and really could care less-so that leaves me!

me not being Catholic should not make a difference. I have pointed out to the Priest the errors in the teaching etc. I have stood up and said something…:banghead: so the question is WHAT NOW???

I think you are confused…I have no issues with my sons high school (IT IS WONDERFUL!!!) I have issues with the Church (Parish) he goes to, is a member of, which I am a member of…that is supposed to teach him about his faith.

Once again…I LOVE MY SONS HIGHSCHOOL:thumbsup: it is the PARISH/CHURCH I HAVE ISSUES WITH!!!

I will pray for you Karin, I don’t think you’d be happy anywhere,
the fact is, no place is perfect and if we look, we will always find something in our parish that we don’t agree with, maybe big maybe small but believe me, no parish is perfect and I don’t think you’ll ever be happy no matter where your at and that is sad.

 

[LSK]

One of the things you can do is find out where the materials that are being used in RCIA and CCD are from - and what kind of training the teachers of RCIA and CCD are getting. The better the training and the materials, the better the Catechisim instruction. I found that oft times the teaching is lousy and the information is lukewarm because the materials are outdated and/or the available teachers have not been adequately trained. Now this could be due to a variety of reasons - one of which could be an absence of funding. Another could be a lack of enthusiasm in the Parish itself.

You might look into the possibility of firing things up a bit around there. Contact your Parish Events Coordinator and see if there is a possibility of booking a speaker…someone from Catholic Answers or Father Corapi to come to your parish and get the people excited about being Catholic. The more people find themselves happy and excited about being Catholic, the more they will want to learn…and the more they want to learn, the more they will demand of their teachers.

One great resource is EWTN series done by Father John Corapi. His website is www.fathercorapi.com.

 

[Karin]

kamz:

I will pray for you Karin, I don’t think you’d be happy anywhere,
the fact is, no place is perfect and if we look, we will always find something in our parish that we don’t agree with, maybe big maybe small but believe me, no parish is perfect and I don’t think you’ll ever be happy no matter where your at and that is sad.

Kamz-
So what does me not being Catholic have to do with anything???..I like you am standing up for my Catholic kids. I am sure that you as a Catholic would not tolerate this stuff being taught to your kids.
Actually what I find sad is that finding a Parish that actually preaches what the Church teaches is so hard to find.
I could be quite happy where I am, if I did not care…but unfortunatly I do care-perhaps that is the sad part!!!