Ilegalizing Aboriton not the answer

[Bella92]

At the same time outlawing it makes society know its wrong.

Not everyone in society thinks it’s wrong, in the same way there are people who genuinely don’t see anything wrong with them drinking and driving, doing drugs, or trying to get away with an insurance fraud. While the latter actions has a direct negative knock-on effect to the general public in increased insurance costs and public safety, the general public don’t see abortion as directly affecting them. They see it as the individual woman’s right to choose, and nothing that affects them directly or even indirectly. Until the general public, society at large, is convinced they are affected by every abortion carried out, abortion being legal or illegal won’t make a blind bit of difference to them.

 

[Bella92]

For that reason is that the Church has given us things like NFP.

I would dispute the Church gave us NFP. Medicine did, when studies in human reproduction put the information out there for people to use.

 

[sw85]

Your Mom is right about how awful it was for women back in the days of back alley abortions.

The year before Roe v. Wade, there were fewer than 1,000 abortion-related deaths, legal or illegal.

In 2008 there were over 1.2 *million *abortions.

Let’s get our priorities straight.

 

[fix]

Can you think of any human behaviour that has stopped because it’s illegal? I can’t. We still murder, steal, drink and drive, do drugs, committ insurance and banking fraud, drive without tax and insurance, fail to comply with statutory regulations. All illlegal and all routinely done. Making abortion illegal would serve no purpose. Women who want abortions, will still get abortions.

The law is a teacher. The idea that the law makes no difference is frankly absurd.

 

[Brendan]

Can you think of any human behaviour that has stopped because it’s illegal? I can’t. We still murder, steal, drink and drive, do drugs, committ insurance and banking fraud, drive without tax and insurance, fail to comply with statutory regulations. All illlegal and all routinely done. Making abortion illegal would serve no purpose. Women who want abortions, will still get abortions.

Actually, it will. It will reduce the overall number of abortion, just as making rape illegal has reduced the overall number of rapes.

It will do so in the same way that all laws work, by the threat of punishment and by the incarceration of those who commit the crimes so they are prevented from doing it again.

Laws against rape reduce rape by discouraging those who would commit a rape, and by throwing rapists in prision where they cannot rape again. For a medical practicitioner, there would be the disincentive to perform abortion simply from the threat of prision (what Doctor or Nurse WANTS to go to prision). And the few that do, like the rapists, will be put into prision where they can perform their abominations on others.

Will some abortions still occur, yes, just as some rapes do occur. WIll there be fewer abortions? Yes, just as there are fewer rapes now than if rape was legalized (or even paid for the government :)

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The year before Roe v. Wade, there were fewer than 1,000 abortion-related deaths, legal or illegal.

In 2008 there were over 1.2 *million *abortions.

Let’s get our priorities straight.

And we were sold the lie that if abortion was legalized, it would be “safe, legal, and RARE.” I was there, and I remember the lies very well.

Over 50 MILLION babies have been killed since 1973. I don’t call that rare.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’ve also heard that making contraceptives more available will make abortion rare. Well contraceptives are easily accessible for a small fee, thanks to Planned Parenthood, yet the number of abortions have remained very high.

 

[Dawnia]

Both my Mom & Dad came from large Catholic Families and lived in poverty because of it, in today’s economic climate it’s just not plausible to have 7 or 8 kids and think you are going to be able to provided college educations for all your kids. Everyone suffers in that situation is that fair to the children brought into this world to live not having a home or food to eat because the church feels birth control is just as bad as abortion.
QUOTE]

It is attitudes like this that drive me nuts. :banghead: You act as if being poor is some disease that only birth control can cure. Well I’ve got news for you, but there are small families that live in dire poverty as well. I came from a family of 3 and we lived far below the standards of the much larger families (7-19 kids) in our area.

Birth control and abortion are all about being selfish and being more concerned with your own wants than what God wants. The Church teachs self sacrifice, humility, sefllessness. Promoting birth control and abortion creates more of the former and less of the latter.

 

[kingpomba]

I’ve also heard that making contraceptives more available will make abortion rare. Well contraceptives are easily accessible for a small fee, thanks to Planned Parenthood, yet the number of abortions have remained very high.

This is simply untrue.

Most abortions are unplanned pregnancies (obviously, this is just logical). Care to hazard a guess why they might be unexpected? Contraceptive failure or not using them at all.

The logic should be self-evident but here’s some excerpts from some of the most highly cited studies on this topic:

CONTEXT: Knowing the extent to which contraceptive nonuse, incorrect or inconsistent use, and method failure account for unintended pregnancies ending in abortion, as well as reasons for nonuse and imperfect use, can help policymakers and family planning providers support effective contraceptive use. METHODS: Contraceptive use patterns among a nationally representative sample of 10,683 women receiving abortion services in 2000-2001 were examined, as well as reasons for nonuse, problems with the most frequently used methods and the impact emergency contraceptive pills have had on abortion rates. RESULTS:** Forty-six percent of women had not used a contraceptive method in the month they conceived**, mainly because of perceived low risk of pregnancy and concerns about contraception (cited by 33% and 32% of nonusers, respectively). The male condom was the most commonly reported method among all women (28%), followed by the pill (14%). Inconsistent method use was the main cause of pregnancy for 49% of condom users and 76% of pill users; 42% of condom users cited condom breakage or slippage as a reason for pregnancy. Substantial proportions of pill and condom users indicated perfect method use (13-14%). As many as 51,000 abortions were averted by use of emergency contraceptive pills in 2000. CONCLUSIONS: Women and men need accurate information about fertility cycles and about the risk of pregnancy when a contraceptive is not used or is used imperfectly. Increased use of emergency contraceptive pills could further reduce levels of unintended pregnancy and abortion. - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12558092

Context:** Current debates on how to reduce the high U.S. abortion rate often fail to take into account the role of unintended pregnancy, an important determinant of abortion.** Methods: Data from the 1982, 1988 and 1995 cycles of the National Survey of Family Growth, supplemented by data from other sources, are used to estimate 1994 rates and percentages of unintended birth and pregnancy and the proportion of women who have experienced an unintended birth, an abortion or both. In addition, estimates are made of the proportion of women who will have had an abortion by age 45. Results: Excluding miscarriages, 49% of the pregnancies concluding in 1994 were unintended; 54% of these ended in abortion. Forty-eight percent of women aged 15-44 in 1994 had had at least one unplanned pregnancy sometime in their lives; 28% had had one or more unplanned births, 30% had had one or more abortions and 11% had had both. At 1994 rates, women can expect to have 1.42 unintended pregnancies by the time they are 45, and at 1992 rates, 43% of women will have had an abortion. Between 1987 and 1994, the unintended pregnancy rate declined by 16%, from 54 to 45 per 1,000 women of reproductive age. The proportion of unplanned pregnancies that ended in abortion increased among women aged 20 and older, but decreased among teenagers, who are now more likely than older women to continue their unplanned pregnancies. The unintended pregnancy rate was highest among women who were aged 18-24, unmarried, low-income, black or Hispanic. Conclusion: Rates of unintended pregnancy have declined, probably as a result of higher contraceptive prevalence and use of more effective methods. Efforts to achieve further decreases should focus on reducing risky behavior, promoting the use of effective contraceptive methods and improving the effectiveness with which all methods are used. - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9494812

 

[Carina20]

My point was to combat the idea that abortion does not need to be illegal, we just need to “change” the culture so people won’t choose it. but when something is legal, you will not successful combat this in the culture. That is happening now and we should do that no matter what the success is but to think that illegality of a behavior won’t make a difference is a total fallacy

I don’t know. I think we were pretty successful with slavery.

 

[Dawnia]

This is simply untrue.

Most abortions are unplanned pregnancies (obviously, this is just logical). Care to hazard a guess why they might be unexpected? Contraceptive failure or not using them at all.

The logic should be self-evident but here’s some excerpts from some of the most highly cited studies on this topic:

Sex is directly associated with pregnancy. It should come as a shock to no one that if you have sex…YOU MIGHT GET PREGNANT. There has only been one pregancy in all of history that wasn’t a side effect of sex. Contraception gives people the false idea that you can have sex without the side effect of pregnancy, which might be possible in the short term, but not in the long term.

And if you don’t consider >1 million abortions a high number, you have a very warped idea of what high numbers are. And that is just in the US. World wide figures are much higher.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Your Mom is right about how awful it was for women back in the days of back alley abortions.
I never understood how the Church can be anti-birth control in this modern time. I might be able to hang with the Church being pro-life if they did not look down on use of birth control.
Both my Mom & Dad came from large Catholic Families and lived in poverty because of it, in today’s economic climate** it’s just not plausible to have 7 or 8 kids and think you are going to be able to provided college educations for all your kids. Everyone suffers in that situation is that fair to the children brought into this world to live not having a home or food to eat because the church feels birth control is just as bad as abortion.**
I am pro-choice and think it’s the women’s right to decide not some man who sit’s high in his ivory tower of disapproval, it’s G-ds place to judge how I have lived my life and no one else’s.
Its fine if you are pro-life that’s your decision but don’t let that belief cause women to suffer and die in some filthy room when there is no need for it.

1. Then don’t have 7 or 8 kids, NFP is actually more effective than the pill.
2. It is not as bad as abortion.

 

[CollegeStinks]

It amazes me that people think hoards of women will actually resort to something as crazy as performing some sort of self-abortion in a back alley in the middle of some ghetto if abortion is outlawed. Really? You really think women would do that?

How many people would get kidney transplants, amputations, or face lifts in back alleys by amateurs if they were outlawed?

 

[Kevin_B]

It amazes me that people think hoards of women will actually resort to something as crazy as performing some sort of self-abortion in a back alley in the middle of some ghetto if abortion is outlawed. Really? You really think women would do that?

How many people would get kidney transplants, amputations, or face lifts in back alleys by amateurs if they were outlawed?

I’m very much pro-life, but I do need to correct you. People did this very often when abortion was illegal, and they do it often even today in other counties. They don’t " think" it’s going to happen, it’s happening already.

I think the term " back alley" is confusing you. It doesn’t literally happen in a back alley, just in an office of a disreputable doctor with no cleanliness or anesthesia

 

[Dawnia]

I’m very much pro-life, but I do need to correct you. People did this very often when abortion was illegal, and they do it often even today in other counties. They don’t " think" it’s going to happen, it’s happening already.

I think the term " back alley" is confusing you. It doesn’t literally happen in a back alley, just in an office of a disreputable doctor with no cleanliness or anesthesia

Abortion doesn’t have to be illegal to have “back alley” doctors. Grosnell is a prime example of that. And people still try DIY abortions. Making abortion legal didn’t stop the bad aspects of illegal abortion.

 

[Viki63]

I’m very much pro-life, but I do need to correct you. People did this very often when abortion was illegal, and they do it often even today in other counties. They don’t " think" it’s going to happen, it’s happening already.

I think the term " back alley" is confusing you. It doesn’t literally happen in a back alley, just in an office of a disreputable doctor with no cleanliness or anesthesia

Dr Nathanson, who spear-headed much of the drive to make abortions legal, has admitted that he invented the facts about the high incidence of back alley abortions and the women who died from them.
He made his figures up.
(He later repented, after seeing the abortion tape that became The Silent Scream.He died a Catholic)
A side note: many abortionists today are disreputable, and their offices lack cleanliness. They hush up the number of women who are injured or killed there - rush them off to hospitals.

 

[nitesnake]

I am completely against abortion, but I don’t think that illegalizing it would be the best solution if that means people will still get it and even endanger them our lives by going to an unorthodox place.

What are your views?

Since we are Catholics, it doesn’t matter what our opinions or views on this might be. It is absolutely forbidden by the church. Just like any other murder, we cannot condone or tolerate abortion in any way. That includes keeping it legal.

 

[KimberlyAnnP]

First, I work in healthcare and healthcare workers, whether MD or RN or other,cannot be *forced into performing abortions. Second, I agree that making abortions illegal will not stop them but rather open a black market industry for them ( think fetuses in dumpsters & you get a partial picture). I’ve known several girls that have had abortions. They all expressed a desire to have their children, but felt that they would be ostracized from their friends & family, left pregnant, alone, forced out of school, no place to live & no tools to care for their baby. One possible solution is to figure out how to create an atmosphere where young pregnant women who WANT to have their children, can, in reality, have & raise them. Any ideas?

 

[estesbob]

First, I work in healthcare and healthcare workers, whether MD or RN or other,cannot be *forced into performing abortions. Second, I agree that making abortions illegal will not stop them but rather open a black market industry for them ( think fetuses in dumpsters & you get a partial picture). I’ve known several girls that have had abortions. They all expressed a desire to have their children, but felt that they would be ostracized from their friends & family, left pregnant, alone, forced out of school, no place to live & no tools to care for their baby. One possible solution is to figure out how to create an atmosphere where young pregnant women who WANT to have their children, can, in reality, have & raise them. Any ideas?

So we whouldnt have laws against abortion becuase people might break them?

 

[KimberlyAnnP]

No, no, feel free to make it illegal, I’m just saying it won’t stop it but rather push it into the shadows along with drugs, prostitution, etc. “The true fix is rarely the easiest”-Me.