Ilegalizing Aboriton not the answer

  • Thread starter Thread starter Arturo_Ortiz
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
KimberlyAnnP said:
No, no, feel free to make it illegal, I’m just saying it won’t stop it but rather push it into the shadows along with drugs, prostitution, etc. “The true fix is rarely the easiest”-Me.
Click to expand...
Abortions quadrupled in the 2 years after Roe was imposed
 
This point might have already been made, but I’ve come around to an additional tactic in the fight for Life, one perhaps easier to make headway on for each us in our normal day.

Yes, we should pray and sacrifice daily for the unborn, their struggling mothers, their weak fathers. Yes we should publicly witness…we should write our Congressmen, march, offer Masses, help pregnant women, etc…all these, and more of them.

But we could probably all live our own parenthood with greater generosity, more self donation, more abandonment to the will of God, more joy in being a father or a mother. Joy should spill out of our house into the neighborhood. Neighbors should see a serene, confident Christian home. Over the years the neighbor children will sense that parenthood is a great and joyful calling, one not to be tolerated selishly, but one that is lived with great “enterprise”. Our coming of age relatives too will have the sense from our own quiet but constant example…that we are steady, rock solidly in love with our spouse and with Jesus Christ.
 
How did “they” keep track of illegal abortions before Roe v Wade? I don’t doubt your statement, just the ability to track all illegal abortions. But another important part of that fact is that abortions were happening before Roe V Wade. Hence, overturning the law would reduce the number performed, but in todays age of information and technology, I think a motivated individual would still find a way to have an abortion and as I stated earlier, would open up a profitable market for unscrupulous individuals I.e. do-it-yourself abortion kits sold on the internet. We need to find a better solution! Ideas?
 
KimberlyAnnP said:
How did “they” keep track of illegal abortions before Roe v Wade? I don’t doubt your statement, just the ability to track all illegal abortions. But another important part of that fact is that abortions were happening before Roe V Wade. Hence, overturning the law would reduce the number performed, but in todays age of information and technology, I think a motivated individual would still find a way to have an abortion and as I stated earlier, would open up a profitable market for unscrupulous individuals I.e. do-it-yourself abortion kits sold on the internet. We need to find a better solution! Ideas?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, you are never going to prevent all abortions. It’s just not reality. Reducing the number is all that can be expected. 😦

But, whether abortion is legal or not, there needs to be support for moms. That is one of the goals that the pregnancy resource center I work with has. They want to make sure that the moms are happy with their decision and have the resources they need to care for their child once born. Preventing the abortion is just the first step.
 
KimberlyAnnP said:
What does your resource center offer for resources?
Click to expand...
Clothes, baby supplies, diapers, etc. and connect them with other local organizations depending on their needs. Most of all we provide support, which seems to be what most of the women want more than anything.

We must be doing something right because women who have come to us for help, refer others. 😃 We have even had PP staff refer people to us.
 
Arturo_Ortiz said:
So my mom and I have had a talk about how abortion is bad, but she argues that making abortion illegal won’t solve anything. She says that there was a time when she lived in Mexico that abortions were completely illegal. She said that the only thing that did was to make women who wanted to get an abortion to go to an underground clinic " the black market". This is much worse as not only is the child getting killed, but also the mother’s life is endangered.

I am completely against abortion, but I don’t think that illegalizing it would be the best solution if that means people will still get it and even endanger them our lives by going to an unorthodox place.

What are your views?
Click to expand...
Suggesting that is somewhat like proposing to legalize murder because murderers and policemen die during the police chase. Or legalizing rape so that we can monitor and give contraceptives and STD protection for those about to be raped. Murder and rape are illegal because they are gravely immoral and are against the fundamental/integral rights. Allowing a grave evil to minimize complications is absurd to me.

Abortion should be illegal just as murder is illegal because it’s an assault against an innocent human being’s life. Sure, those who REALLY want to have abortion will find underground means to do so, but the risks and penalties will still be a deterrent to it. If it’s legal, more women will easily get an abortion and kill innocent human lives. 55 million lives have been forcibly taken since abortion has been made legal.
 
KimberlyAnnP said:
How did “they” keep track of illegal abortions before Roe v Wade? I don’t doubt your statement, just the ability to track all illegal abortions. But another important part of that fact is that abortions were happening before Roe V Wade. Hence, overturning the law would reduce the number performed, but in todays age of information and technology, I think a motivated individual would still find a way to have an abortion and as I stated earlier, would open up a profitable market for unscrupulous individuals I.e. do-it-yourself abortion kits sold on the internet. We need to find a better solution! Ideas?
Click to expand...
I’d say making abortion illegal, although part of the answer, is not enough. We need to spread a culture of life. Promote a change of hearts, more than a change of laws.
 
kingpomba said:
This is simply untrue.

Most abortions are unplanned pregnancies (obviously, this is just logical). Care to hazard a guess why they might be unexpected? Contraceptive failure or not using them at all.

The logic should be self-evident but here’s some excerpts from some of the most highly cited studies on this topic:
Click to expand...
54% of women who have abortions used contraception on the month they were pregnant.

92% of women who had abortions have used contraception some time in their life.

guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

A study in Spain showed abortions doubled along with increase in contraceptive use.

jillstanek.com/2011/01/study-spain-contraception-use-up-abortions-double-researchers-cant-figure-out-why/

I agree that unwanted pregnancies are the cause of abortion. But look, UNWANTING pregnancies is a parent’s mindset. It’s more than an issue of a woman having sex without using contraceptives. It’s an issue of women having sex without being open to life - the same mindset behind contraceptive use.

The 46% abortions wihtout contraceptives wouldn’t be prevented ONLY by contraceptive use. These parents values and mindsets are the crucial determining factor for procuring an abortion. Mothers with unplanned pregnancies would still not resort to abortion if they have been open to and respectful of their unborn child’s life. In this respect, it is questionable whether contraception really prevented abortion, or in fact fostered a mindset tending towards abortion.
 
Catholic1954 said:
Once evil is let in and takes hold, it is very, very difficult to get rid of it. There are millions and millions of Americans who were never born, because of abortion and millions more than that worldwide.
Click to expand...
Millions of people have abortions because it is not self-evident that murder is in fact taking place. Abortion is legal because it is not self-evident that abortion is murder. There is no legal bases for opposing abortion.

That’s all i have to say on the matter.
 
raikou said:
I’d say making abortion illegal, although part of the answer, is not enough. We need to spread a culture of life. Promote a change of hearts, more than a change of laws.
Click to expand...
Spreading a culture of life is the only practical way forward if we really want to save unborn people.
 
Abortion is murder and that is one reason why it should be illegal.
 
raikou said:
Abortion should be illegal just as murder is illegal because it’s an assault against an innocent human being’s life.
Click to expand...
If it was self evident that such was in fact the case then abortion would be illegal.
 
Dawnia said:
Unfortunately, you are never going to prevent all abortions. It’s just not reality. Reducing the number is all that can be expected. 😦

But, whether abortion is legal or not, there needs to be support for moms. That is one of the goals that the pregnancy resource center I work with has. They want to make sure that the moms are happy with their decision and have the resources they need to care for their child once born. Preventing the abortion is just the first step.
Click to expand...
I agree. It seems there is a lot of children in adoption homes and nobody is adopting them. If every Christian family adopted a child they might be taken more seriously. What is the point of fighting for the existence of the unborn, and yet not caring what happens to their lives once they have been born. What future do they have in America?
 
Linux said:
Millions of people have abortions because it is not self-evident that murder is in fact taking place. Abortion is legal because it is not self-evident that abortion is murder. There is no legal bases for opposing abortion.

That’s all i have to say on the matter.
Click to expand...
If abortion is performed, a baby will NOT be born. If abortion is not performed there’s a good chance a baby will be born. What’s not self-evident?
 
Linux said:
That a fetus has a personal soul. That is not self evident.
Click to expand...
Well it is with just a bit of mental work.
  • Is a soul unique?
  • When does a human become unique genetically?
  • When does it receive its unique identity?
  • Can its unique identity be changed into another identity?
  • Do humans develop for some period and then receive their identity?
  • Or do humans receive their unique identity and this in turn drives its development?
What theory of ensoulment seems to fit the answers to all these questions most simply?
Which theory requires fewer steps and explanations?

The Catholic Church to my knowledge hasn’t made a formal or final pronouncement on the timing of ensoulment. It’s not necessary to defend its position on the human rights of children and abortion.

But how are the data and answers lining up from this mental exercise? Relying only on our reasoning and observation, what is most self evident?
 
Edward_H said:
Well it is with just a bit of mental work.
  • Is a soul unique?
  • When does a human become unique genetically?
  • When does it receive its unique identity?
  • Can its unique identity be changed into another identity?
  • Do humans develop for some period and then receive their identity?
  • Or do humans receive their unique identity and this in turn drives its development?
What theory of ensoulment seems to fit the answers to all these questions most simply?
Which theory requires fewer steps and explanations?

The Catholic Church to my knowledge hasn’t made a formal or final pronouncement on the timing of ensoulment. It’s not necessary to defend its position on the human rights of children and abortion.

But how are the data and answers lining up from this mental exercise? Relying only on our reasoning and observation, what is most self evident?
Click to expand...
Nothing you have said here has made it evident that a fetus has a personal soul, and it certainly isn’t self evident that a fetus is a person in the legal sense of the word (as opposed to the catholic sense of the word). You are merely asserting things motivated by your faith and asking questions that really has no contextual relevance in defining when a biological object can be legally considered a person.

Rhetorically implying that the genetic materials for a person are ready at conception and represents what a person actually is is certainly not enough to convince a court of law since you have yet to demonstrate why this genetic material should be legally considered a person. You are putting the kart before the horse. You are asserting that such material has the legal identity of a person; but genetic material alone is clearly not what the courts define as personal in the first place, but rather these are the building blocks that eventually develops into a person given time in the eyes of the court. And they have no legal bases to think otherwise. The biggest assertion here is the idea that the church does not need to rationally defend its position in matters of civil law, which is ludicrous. That attitude will have no effect on the abortion issue whatsoever.

Your argument merely amounts to saying that you have the truth; but unless you can demonstrate that truth (that a fetus has a personal soul at conception) there is no reason for the state or any legal body to acknowledge it, much less make civil laws that support the Catholic moral agenda.
 
Linux said:
Nothing you have said here has made it evident that a fetus has a personal soul, and it certainly isn’t self evident that a fetus is a person in the legal sense of the word (as opposed to the catholic sense of the word). You are merely asserting things motivated by your faith and asking questions that really has no contextual relevance in defining when a biological object can be legally considered a person.

Rhetorically implying that the genetic materials for a person are ready at conception and represents what a person actually is is certainly not enough to convince a court of law since you have yet to demonstrate why this genetic material should be legally considered a person. You are putting the kart before the horse. You are asserting that such material has the legal identity of a person; but genetic material alone is clearly not what the courts define as personal in the first place, but rather these are the building blocks that eventually develops into a person given time in the eyes of the court. And they have no legal bases to think otherwise. The biggest assertion here is the idea that the church does not need to rationally defend its position in matters of civil law, which is ludicrous. That attitude will have no effect on the abortion issue whatsoever.

Your argument merely amounts to saying that you have the truth; but unless you can demonstrate that truth (that a fetus has a personal soul at conception) there is no reason for the state or any legal body to acknowledge it, much less make civil laws that support the Catholic moral agenda.
Click to expand...
Well that’s fine. It’s up to you and your own sincere examination of the data and logic you hold in your head to arrive at a conclusion about self-evidency.

To be frank, you’re confused in your thinking or at least in your response above, bringing in ensoulment and faith and legal points and biology all into one sentence. I kept them in their own lanes.

Now as I pointed out the Church’s position on abortion isn’t contingent on ensoulment…its position stands on natural rights, which doesn’t need to call in supernatural points of argument. The Church makes those arguments too, but they can stand independent. So, if you are a Catholic, you have two fights on your hands.

Pax.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top