Illegal Immigration: What to do?

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Lisa N:
After reading your recent series of posts, I do have to wonder why you came up with such odd misconceptions. If you read my posts you would have noticed that one of my major concerns about illegal immigration is that it allows the workers to be exploited by their employers. They are paid substandard wages, live in disgraceful little shacks, and have no worker’s compensation although they often work in dangerous occupations. Because they are not legal workers they have no recourse against these employers. Further because of their lack of documentation they are exploited by check cashing companies that take a huge cut out of their checks to give them cash. They are exploited by landlords who can demand large,non-refundable deposits before they can rent an apartment.

I take it you believe the current system allowing the exploitation of these people is the way to go? Or could you possibly see the merit in establishing some kind of documentation that would allow the people to come to the US to work legally and thus be protected by the same laws our citizens and legal immigrants have to protect them?

Lisa N
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if the government would make it easier and more affordable to get legal working visas, and legal seasonal visas, there would be no exploitation.
 
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TarAshly:
Oh Lord keep my words patient and charitable. i had to literally walk away and take a deep breath before posting. …i have lived in Mexico and worked in the orphanages there. i have been to the slums,
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May we take it then that you have written all this up and complained loudly and long to Vicente Fox? What did he say? Has he done anything? Do you thnk he will? If so, what, if not, why not?

Did you contact any media or legislators while you were living there? Did they offer help in running stories or taking action - please update us on your efforts.
 
Scott Waddell:
No, they felt no need to justify it. They would have simply said it was theirs by right of conquest. This native-population-as-victim concept is purely a modern invention that would not only have been alien to the Spanish, but also to the conquered population whom I’m willing to wager would look on the modern whiny fusspots as a disgrace to their memory.

Scott
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Let’s not forget also that some of the local civilizations were oppressing others before the Spaniards arrived, for example, the Aztecs and their “flower wars” (where they did battle with whomever was available to get prisioners for sacrifices). The Spaniards would not have defeated the Aztecs had it not been for the help many other peoples gave to the Spaniards to defeat the Aztecs.

cheers
 
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TarAshly:
if the government would make it easier and more affordable to get legal working visas, and legal seasonal visas, there would be no exploitation.
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To the best of my recollection when te US had the bracero program in full force which allowed day workers or temporary workers in, the wages and living conditions were the same. Getting a legal permit to work does not of itself resolve “exploitation”.
 
Dj Roy Albert:
Moctezuma (not “Montezuma”) made the mistake of offering the Spaniards gold to go back across the waters to where they came from.

It took Cortez about 7 years to enslave the Aztec Nation.
It took the U.S. government over 400 years to do the same to the natives that populated parts of North America.

I am a descendent of both Aztec & Mescalero Apache peoples.
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Moctezuma made many mistakes when dealing with the Spaniards. I think that the biggest was to not destroy them when he had a chance.

Also, Cortez had the help of many other native peoples of Mexico to conquer the Aztecs.

As an aside, the Spaniards were having great difficulty withthe Aztecs after the conquest was over (sorta like Iraq after the major combat operations were over). It took the apparition of the Blessed MOther as la virgen de Guadalupe to soften the hearts of the Aztecs.

Cheers
 
As a Mexican who emmigrated here 15yrs ago I appreciate your passion and efforts you’ve done to help the people in Mexico both there and here.

I must say that I’ve read all of LisaN’s posts here and do not see why or how they have affected you so. She makes good points. She has repeadetly stated that she is concern that illegals are treated badly by their bosses, landowners, checkcashing companies,etc… So it seems to me that she recognizes that the problem of illegal immigrations hurts not only Americans but also the illegal immigrants themselves.

I think that the problem of illegal immigration cannot be solved by the US alone. It is in the interest of Mexico for Mexicans to come and work here since those same Mexicans send billions of dollars back to Mexico (I have heard more money that either tourism and petroleum income).

I believe that the US has a right to protect its borders. I also believe that people have an obligation to seek a better life for their families, if that involves sacrificing much and comming to the US illegaly so be it. I would agree with Lisa that a type of guest worker program that would allow for those illegal immigrants to work here legally for a time and then allow them to go back to Mexico and reapply for the work program is the way to go. Unfortunately, some (not many) employers who use illegal labor because its cheap might not use legal labor (or at least not under the guest work program) but I think that it would be an improvement for both the US economy and the way the MExican workers would be treated.

I’m sorry if i’m not being very clear and/or concise…it’s a big problem and it’s hard to talk about it in little pieces (for me anyway).

Cheers
 
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Norwich:
Be very careful friends, remember, as far as the native American Indians are concerned, most of your ancestors were illegal immigrants!!!😃
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I guess this will place most Mexicans in a conundrum (however that’s spelled) since some of my ancestors are Spanish and some are native Mexicans (pre-Columbian).

Cheers
 
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HagiaSophia:
May we take it then that you have written all this up and complained loudly and long to Vicente Fox? What did he say? Has he done anything? Do you thnk he will? If so, what, if not, why not?

Did you contact any media or legislators while you were living there? Did they offer help in running stories or taking action - please update us on your efforts.
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While i was down there my friends and i did write letters to Presidente Fox and his associates, we were replied. he stated that the government is doing all it can to help with the poverty levels in their country while it was one of those generic responses you get when writing any politician we were glad to have at least made our thoughts and concerns known. my husband and i plan on adopting a child from the orphanage where i volunteered. I spoke at my college about what needed to be done, continue to work with ESL students to help them adapt to this country and our language. installed two reading programs in my community to start a spanish and english reading and mentoring program for ESL students. I also often donate money and time to the charities and organizations and missionaries who work in that country and others in need of help. and while legal work permits dont do ALL the work, they help as does opening peoples narrow minds to a world outside ours. As far as what i think Presidente Fox will or will not do. to be honest im not sure. i think the government needs some organizational help and some help with dealing with national budgets,deficets, and finances. Maybe someday he will either be offered or recieve this help. i think its a matter of education and time.
 
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TarAshly:
if the government would make it easier and more affordable to get legal working visas, and legal seasonal visas, there would be no exploitation.
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Do ya think? Did you NOTICE THAT IN EVERY ONE OF MY POSTS I HAVE STATED SPECIFICALLY THAT WE DO NEED TO MAKE THIS PROCESS EASIER?

It is incredibly irritating that you think because we disagree on the homosexual agenda that anything I say is invalid. I did NOT say that the lack of English skills interferes with my sensitive American nature. I said that this is putting a HUGE financial burden on the rest of our citizens. Do you think it’s fair for people to come here illegally, not pay taxes yet use the services available to taxpaying citizens? I don’t. And I don’t like our citizens’ education and healthcare being compromised because we have to spend money to accommodate people who are here illegally.

I believe that the illegal resident problem is damaging for both sides of this debate. It is a serious problem for our infrastructure because illegal residents put a huge and disproportionate burden on these services. But also because they are illegally here, they are subject to exploitation because they have no recourse. The SOLUTION to this problem is to streamline the worker process so that people can come legally, without having to spend a fortune on an immigration attorney. Once the people have this documentation they will have many protections currently unavailable.

Please read the posts before you respond.

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
.The SOLUTION to this problem is to streamline the worker process so that people can come legally, without having to spend a fortune on an immigration attorney. Once the people have this documentation they will have many protections currently unavailable.
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Actually to me that isn’t the solution, it is but a bandaid. There needs to be pressure put upon the government in Mexico to provide a more stable life and environment for its own citizenry.

There is somthing shameful about their own government telling people that they must abandon their extended family, their place of birth and go into a different country and culture where often they face not just the financial hardships but the emotional separations of many years while they struggle on alone. Families often don’t survive the separation, various other social ills occur.

It would seem to me that closing our border would provide the American side with with the security of a safe border and force the government which exports its people because it will not change its system in the 20th century towards responsibiity. Thus we have a long term solution, not a quick fix it.

When Fox went in to office I had high hopes although I didn’t personally like him - but so far, it’s the same ole, same ole.

We need to end the problem both for the people of Mexico and for ourselves. Many nations have poor, hurting and desperate populaces. All of them have to go through the process when they want to immigrate. It should be no different whether they come in via the northern border, smuggled on ships from the far East, dump themselves on the shores of the south east or come north.

The first step in immigrating it seems to me is to show some respect for the people taking you in.
 
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HagiaSophia:
Actually to me that isn’t the solution, it is but a bandaid. There needs to be pressure put upon the government in Mexico to provide a more stable life and environment for its own citizenry.

The first step in immigrating it seems to me is to show some respect for the people taking you in.
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I think the temporary guest worker visas are a solution to ONE of the problems, that of people coming here without documentation because it is expensive and difficult to obtain.

I realize that will not solve the systemic problems within Mexico. I am not sure how we can pressure President Fox or the Mexican government to change their entire country. What do you think? It’s very sad that a country with such a hardworking populace and extensive natural resources sends its own citizens across the border because as unpleasant as some of the US jobs are, they are apparently better than what the people can obtain in their own country.

I don’t know the big picture soution but I do think we need to streamline the temporary worker visas as one step
Lisa N
 
How can I respond to this…
Well a few things. One, not all Latin Americans are or amerindian descent. Just look at any Spanish language TV show, and one would think that Mexico is as “blanca” as Spain herself is. I personally knew a few Mexicans of French herritage as well.

DJ, I have a suggestion, stop listening to the leftist propaganda and get rooted in reality. One last thing, as for my ancestors, they did not STEAL LAND, they did not RAPE or any of that, and as they were Italian and Jewish, they did not have a easy time of it either.
Dj Roy Albert:
Unless you are Native American, or descended of indigenous peoples then **you are descended from immigrants , **& ILLEGAL immigrants most likely.

Do you really believe that your ancestors had the right to rape, murder & steal land from indigenous peoples? Does this give you the right to keep others from entering a country of which you are not a native & they may well be?

Do you not realiize that ALL “Latin Americans” are descended of indigenous people & are in fact Native Americans?

The United States of America IS NOT “America”. “America” is the name given to the ENTIRE WESTERN HEMISPHERE, not the United States alone. I laugh at people that call themselves “American” because that word applies to all people that live on this land mass, not just U.S. citizens.

The people you call “illegals” are NATIVE AMERICANS.

You’re statement was racist & disgusting.
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send them back!!! the nerve of these creatures who want to make a dollar an hour producing our food!

if we don’t crack down hard pretty soon good catholic americans won’t be able to afford 2 Suv’s, 4 bedroom houses, 30 inch flat screen t.v.'s, DSL or cable, direct tv, comcast, eating out at least once a week, vacations, etc.

yeah we truly are in crisis here. we’re talking about our standard of living people. again, if we don’t crack down hard, dying in a terrorist attack might become only 987969868698698589 times less likely than getting hit by a car.

better go join the minutemen stat!!!
 
Living in Washington State, I have to say that I think a lot of people underestimate what illegal immigrants bring to this country, namely labor that Americans simply will not touch. There’s a lot of people who voice concern about wages being pushed down because of illegals working for less, but I don’t see many American families willing to work for the state minimum wage to pick apples for a season, nor do I ever see Americans apply for dish-washing positions at resturants.

That being said, I’m not saying they’re an economic boon to the U.S., as they take a lot from our healthcare, and as someone who works in emergency medicine I treat illegals ALL THE TIME. Another problem that they face is exploitation by employers who will toss them out and call the INS if they complain, and then hire some other illegal who will keep their mouth shut.

Having also worked with the legal process for immigration, I have to say that it NEEDS to be streamlined and made easier. Many illegals really DO want to immigrate here, and take the cheapest, dirtiest jobs, and many are quite willing to pay taxes, but the legal loopholes we cause for them are terribly daunting. I think the answer is to open up the way for “immigrant workers”, giving them some security and protection, while ensuring that they are taking jobs that are not being applied for by Americans. Bush’s plan actually made a lot of sense to me, one of the few ideas of his that I can say that about. The reason that many are illegal is because it’s HARD to become legal nowadays. This isn’t the legal system that was in place when our grandparents and great-grandparents came over, even though we do have tons of work available for them, work that ONLY illegals are going after. I have absolutely no problem with those who come here and want to work, and would pay taxes too if it didn’t pop them up on the INS radar. Once the means to being legal, at least to be a legal resident worker, are improved, we can work on cracking down on those who really are exploiting the system.

Barring that, it’s all about the MechWarriors!:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
First of all the Mexican government is not for the people. It is corrupt and corruption is very deep. So expecting the Mexican government to do something to help the US is ludicrious unless they are going to get something out of it mainly to line their own pockets. This corruption is well known by the Mexican people and they really don’t expect it to change much. It was a huge deal that someone from a different party was elected to the presidency, but it doesn’t change all the corruption that is everywhere.

The majority of Mexicans are kind and generous people, even with the little that they have. I know because I lived there. Many people live in conditions that make poor people in the US look wealthy.

The illegals that I’ve been aware of come here to support their families and make a better life, because that is not available to them in Mexico. It is expensive by their wage earning standard to live there. If they earn a dollar here it is often equavalent to many Mexican pesos. So for the same “low wage” here, they earn so much more than for the same amount of work in Mexico.

My experience was that rich Mexicans had no desire to bring up people to the middle class. For as Catholic as they were, I often saw little charity to the less fortunate. As Americans we often paid our employees more than a rich Mexican family would pay them. This is not because we had more money, because rich Mexicans are highly invested in the US, but because we felt it was the right thing to do. Mexicans would chide us as fools for paying so much, which was really not extravagant.

So what to do about illegal immigration. I think closing the borders and having certain entry areas is the first step. They come they get finger printed, documented, and they sign that where they are going. They will be given documentation that will have their fingerprints and some id number on it and is to be presented at time of employment. Employers are required to submit this info to the government. I guess a physical exam could also be required at point of entry to address health issues. There could be other laws dealing with review of status, crimes committed, etc.

Also keep in mind that there is some mentalitiy in Mexico that the US stole New Mexico, Arizona, and California. So they feel some entitlement to come here. I’m not sure how wide spread this is, but I was told this by a Mexican.

It is not just the Mexicans who are coming across the border. And I’m not even talking about terrorists. Many come from Central America and when they cross the Mexican border, the Mexicans are not too nice to them.

This will have to be unilateral and it will probably make lots of people mad. The question becomes do we have anyone with enough guts to do it.
 
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Norwich:
The problem is Dj that your rants and tirades do nothing more than give justification to those who oppose you. Lisa is probably a person of high intelligence, that does not mean that she is either right or wrong. She has an opinion, one that I tend to disagree with but, when you post some of the un-though out gall that you have been, all you are doing is reinforcing the very prejudice you so despise and at the same time displaying your own personal prejudices. That is not dialogue, its polarisation. Polarisation is a situation where the further apart you are the louder you have to shout to be heard and the more you are perceived to be extreme. Simple equation really.

If you want to be understood:

THINK CAREFULLY,
LISTEN DILIGENTLY
SPEAK QUIETLY.

Or, if you want it another way:

MAN WAS BORN WITH TWO EARS AND ONE MOUTH,
THEREFORE HE SHOULD LISTEN TWICE AS MUCH AS HE TALKS.

Could be a lesson for all of us.
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I have avoided this thread for the last month because it caused me to feel so much rage that it became almost unbearable. I was suspended for a week because of the opinions I expressed here, which I found more upsetting than anything since I (unlike some people) never resorted to talk of murder & violence. I was suspended nonetheless.

I’m an honest & straight forward person, if I sense hatred I confront it. If by confronting hatred I am seen as “extreme” or “prejudice” then that’s someone’s personal opinion of me which is really of no importance. I admit that I have my own prejudices, which could be justified when the history of my people is taken into consideration, but keep in mind that I am the father of a loving young daughter who is at least 1/4 German & I love her & her mother dearly, so my prejudices are not out of hatred but out of history.

I apologize if I have offended anyone directly. I have had to deal with racism & hatred all of my life, even in the Church, which saddens me more than words can express.
 
I am a late-comer here, but not to the issue. It has often torn me in two. It goes against everything in me to support anything not legal, yet I attend a parish that is largely immigrant (some legal, some not). I find myself liking Lisa N.'s comment as it reflects my own thoughts.

The process needs to be simple enough to allow those wanting to come work, even as simple laborers, to do so. It is imperative both for security and economic reasons that the location of foreign nationals and their income be tracked and some sort of fee or tax levied.

Those living here from abroad will receive and make use of services provided by the government. It is not asking too much that they help pay.

We can always convert the giant laser robot into a harvester, the Mech-o-matic
 
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Scott_Lafrance:
Giant robots and unmanned, automatic, radar controlled laser turrets.
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South Korea is actually planning to deploy small robots that can target automatically as well as by remote control. It might not be a bad idea to do the same on the US-Mexico border.

I once heard O’Reilly engage his guest about stopping the flow of illegals and his guest kept saying it was impossible and O’Reilly pointed out that the Chinese had stopped cold the flow of people coming in from North Korea. I’m with O’Reilly on this one.
 
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