I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[sola_scriptura]

No problem.

Go back over the 123,987,578,289,000 posts, most of them addressed to answering your questions, and reread them without Lorraine Boetner sitting on your lap

So the answer is NO you cannot provide proof for your statement beyond rhetorical snips?

 

[Wonderboo]

Women may not occupy a pastoral role, Paul is very clear on this issue. Scripture is not the Constitution, and the kingdom of God is not a democracy, it’s a monarchy.

where does paul say that?

 

[Ag_not]

**W: **Further, at best all you have is why women shouldn’t be bishops, fine why can’t I be a priest?

RA: If you live long enough you will be able to be a priest, prolly. Things tend to change in the RCC whenever its needed. That’s the convenient thing about man-made dogmas – just change them when needed.

Contraception anyone? Abortion anyone? Divorce anyone?

Seriously folks, I do applaud your stickiness and willingness to obey others sinners just like you (and boy, that sure can be demonstrated over 2,000 years). But I’ll have to go with Jesus.

R.A

So we should obey a sinner like you instead

 

[emeraldcoast]

Women may not occupy a pastoral role, Paul is very clear on this issue. Scripture is not the Constitution, and the kingdom of God is not a democracy, it’s a monarchy.

I normally like you, Sola…

 

[Wonderboo]

Contraception anyone? Abortion anyone? Divorce anyone?

Seriously folks, I do applaud your stickiness and willingness to obey others sinners just like you (and boy, that sure can be demonstrated over 2,000 years). But I’ll have to go with Jesus.

R.A

So we should obey a sinner like you instead
okay being a [Moderator removed uncharitable term] won’t get us anywhere this is the reason I’m not catholic is I cant figure this whole thing out…jesus didn’t make priests just fyi so why do they have to be men?

 

[Ag_not]

I think that has got to be the most perverted, grossly skewed, infantile, ignorant explanation of salvation by grace alone through faith alone I’ve ever heard. RA

I thank you :kiss4you:

I do try :harp:

 

[emeraldcoast]

So we should obey a sinner like you instead

okay being a won’t get us anywhere this is the reason I’m not catholic is I cant figure this whole thing out…jesus didn’t make priests just fyi so why do they have to be men?

The quotes are getting all messed up…

I know that I recall Jesus going to Mary Magdalene to share the good news of His resurrection with her first and sent her to share the good news to the apostles. Jesus always did things for a reason.

Maybe my notes are off from that Sunday School Class…

 

[Ag_not]

So the answer is NO you cannot provide proof for your statement beyond rhetorical snips?

Sola, Ive read, honestly, thousands of posts here addressed to your issues, which I honestly find interesting to a point, but it is utterly and completely irrelevant what anyone says to you - with my complete lack of scriptural and theological arguementative skills and knowledge there is NOTHING I can say to you that would make the slightest difference.

You are entrenched in your camp, and the Archangel Gabriel blowing his horn at 257 decibels in your left ear wouldnt make you bat an eyelid.

But you just wait till I get through RCIA - maaaan Im gonna hunt you down

 

[sola_scriptura]

where does paul say that?

**I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent (1 Timothy 2:12).

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect (1 Timothy 3:2-4).

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths (Isaiah 3:12).**

Sorry, this is what the Bible states. I’m just not predisposed to using gimmickry in order to adulterate the word of God to fit my world view. Sure, I’m a equal rights guy by nature (I’m an American and a lawyer after all). However, I’m a Christian first & at this point I’m a conservative Christian. I would not attend a church led by a female pastor (much less a homosexual God forbid).

I’m in the Army and have had female commanders, I’ve worked under female bosses, and I have absolutely no problem with any of that. However, the word of God is clear, and I cannot see any wiggle room in scripture with regard to this issue. No offense to my sisters in Christ.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Sola, Ive read, honestly, thousands of posts here addressed to your issues, which I honestly find interesting to a point, but it is utterly and completely irrelevant what anyone says to you - with my complete lack of scriptural and theological arguementative skills and knowledge there is NOTHING I can say to you that would make the slightest difference.

You are entrenched in your camp, and the Archangel Gabriel blowing his horn at 257 decibels in your left ear wouldnt make you bat an eyelid.

But you just wait till I get through RCIA - maaaan Im gonna hunt you down

So you’re saying that you are theological ill equipped to deal with my arguments right now – but maybe one day you won’t be? Yet you make statements with absolutely no way of know if they’re true or not? Do you expect me to take you seriously?

Trust me if you’re theologically ill equipped now RCIA won’t help you much. I’ve been studying scripture, theology, and church history for years – and I was smart enough to make it through law school, so do you seriously think a six week crash course is going to provide you with armor to “hunt me down” as you say?

It will be like a rabbit hunting a lion.

 

[Ag_not]

So you’re saying that you are theological ill equipped to deal with my arguments right now – but maybe one day you won’t be? Yet you make statements with absolutely no way of know if they’re true or not?

You have no way of knowing if your statements are true - in fact you have been shown many times here how you are in error but you are not intelligent enough with your law degree to see???/

Do you expect me to take you seriously?

I actually really want you to ingnore me - it saves me the trouble of ignoring you.

I’ve been studying scripture, theology, and church history for years –

Sadly with little effect I see.

and I was smart enough to make it through law school,

Im impressed, my two undergraduate degrees and the current Masters Im doing just pale into insignificance.

so do you seriously think a six week crash course is going to provide you with armor to “hunt me down” as you say?
It will be like a rabbit hunting a lion.

Did you spot the tongue in cheek emoticons at the end of my post. I was being flippant and trying to be light hearted. As you didnt respond in kind it was obviously totally wasted on you. Pearl before swine and all that.
Oh well.

Interestingly enough, for all your theological and scriptural studies and legal argumentative skills, you had me as a carte blanche to convince, and you didnt manage that either. Guess youve not won too many souls over to the real light from here have you?

Watch this wabbit WOORR!!!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent (1 Timothy 2:12).

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect (1 Timothy 3:2-4).

As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths (Isaiah 3:12).

Sorry, this is what the Bible states. I’m just not predisposed to using gimmickry in order to adulterate the word of God to fit my world view. Sure, I’m a equal rights guy by nature (I’m an American and a lawyer after all). However, I’m a Christian first & at this point I’m a conservative Christian. I would not attend a church led by a female pastor (much less a homosexual God forbid).

I’m in the Army and have had female commanders, I’ve worked under female bosses, and I have absolutely no problem with any of that. However, the word of God is clear, and I cannot see any wiggle room in scripture with regard to this issue. No offense to my sisters in Christ.

Whaddaya know, something else we agree on! This is fantabulous! I was I/F Baptist prior to God making me Catholic, and they don’t ordain women either, so it was never a problem for me. Most of the administrative and educational positions at my parish are held by women, so it’s not like we’re totally oppressed or anything. We have our vocations, the men have theirs. God knows what He’s doing.

 

[flameburns623]

**W: **Further, at best all you have is why women shouldn’t be bishops, fine why can’t I be a priest?

RA: If you live long enough you will be able to be a priest, prolly. Things tend to change in the RCC whenever its needed. That’s the convenient thing about man-made dogmas – just change them when needed.

Ahhh, I can still remember being faithful and obedient to the church that told me not to eat meat on Fridays or else I’d be in sin. Those were the good old days.

Funny thing was that God was already saying to me, “Hey, my child, that’s whack. I couldn’t care less about you eating meat on Friday.” Guess God was right all along – wow!!!:clapping:

Seriously folks, I do applaud your stickiness and willingness to obey others sinners just like you (and boy, that sure can be demonstrated over 2,000 years). But I’ll have to go with Jesus.

R.A

1. In fairness, Richard: the discipline regarding meat on Fridays was ONLY a discipline, not a doctrine. The RCC has distinguished pretty clearly between disciplines, Canon Law, traditions (with a small ‘t’) Tradition (with a capital ‘T’), and dogma. Unlike the LDS Church, these things aren’t muddy and vague.
2. Another head’s up on this whole subject: over the past 250 or so years, English-speaking Roman Catholic dogma has been dominated by a soteriological method known generally as ‘Molinism’, which places a much stronger emphasis upon holy living and good works than does the longer and much more well-developed theology of Augustinianism. The distinction is roughly the same as the distinction between Arminians and Calvinists, and you’re taking the Calvinist side against folks who are roughly approximating the Arminian point of view. A perfectly-orthodox and faithful Roman Catholic whose soteriology was rooted in Augustinian theology would agree with the vast majority of the arguments you have been making in this thread.
3. Next point: the hundred-pound elephant sitting in the room which no one has pointed out yet is that while one’s good works can give evidence of salvation, they are not proof absolute of the same. At least one associate of Billy Graham, a man named Charles Templeton, was a devout and apparently faithful evangelist and Christian writer for decades before rejecting the Christian faith and dying an atheist. The ‘blessed assurance’ that we love to point to from Scripture is actually only assurance so long as one is making at least some sort of reasonable progress in the Christian walk–which is why Augustinians, early Calvinists, and Jansenists have always held forth much stricter standards of Christian behavior than is popular in the present-day seeker-sensitive (and greatly watered down) versions of assurance we hear about today.
4. You are critical of the comments of Ag Not, but frankly–I can tell you of some very devout and active street preachers whose message is not much different from that sort of approach. There was a fellow who aired regularly on the Tim and Al Radio Show in St. Louis (weren’t you on that show once or twice, Richard?) who regularly corners complete strangers on the street, gets them to make a profession of faith in Christ, gives them a bumper sticker and a pamphlet, and sends them on their way. This was actually a very popular system of evangelism from the 1950’s through the middle 1980’s or so–I’ve done a little of it myself, frankly. It has fallen out of favor but it’s been done.

I’m surprised that some more able Roman Catholic members of the forum have not weighed in already. In fact, I haven’t seen many of those folks lately. If they do show, you may find yourself getting a real run for your money. I’ve had these discussions before and had my tail whupped a couple of times. The issues involved are not so simple as they’ve been presented thus far in this thread. Hence my suggestion to everyone to read Sungenis.

 

[Ag_not]

Sola - although I was trying to be light hearted and Im the first to admit I have a bit of a weird sense of humour - I have to admit as I was typing that last post I was thinking incredibly uncharitable thoughts about you

So here :hug3:

 

[Ag_not]

flameburn - Ive found your posts really informative in a very calm and ordered manner. Thank you. Ive learned a lot from them.

 

[blossom02]

Ag not, I read your story and I cried. I’m so happy that God has done for you what He has. He does it for all if we just stop and listen.

Good luck in your journey home.

You will be in my prays and please pray for me.

God bless

 

[Ag_not]

Ag not, I read your story and I cried. I’m so happy that God has done for you what He has. He does it for all if we just stop and listen.

Good luck in your journey home.

You will be in my prays and please pray for me.

God bless

Thankyou blossom

It’s very heart warming to read all the anti-marian treatises here, and yet know what we know.

Pray for me too - I fall all too easily

 

[blossom02]

Pray for me too - I fall all too easily

I fall easy also. Thats why I must always turn to him in prayer and in humility.

by the way you are learning at an incredible rate. You sure have been studying.

I made God laugh - I told Him I had plans. But He knew I needed a Mother and He sent me His (this says it all you where to go from here)

I will keep praying for you.

 

[graceandglory]

Grace,

Yeah, it’ s me.

RA

Cool beans. Welcome to CAF.

I heard you on BAM many yrs ago, and I have never heard a better singer.

Keep fighting the fight, brother RA.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Interestingly enough, for all your theological and scriptural studies and legal argumentative skills, you had me as a carte blanche to convince, and you didnt manage that either. Guess youve not won too many souls over to the real light from here have you?

Watch this wabbit WOORR!!!

Come on Ag_not you don’t want to be convinced away from your church do you?

If you’re going to be Catholic, then be Catholic boldly

I’m not here to steer anyone away from their church. I hope one day all churches will adopt the right theology. The Catholics were on track during the days of Augustine, but quickly departed from the sound theology of its greatest theologian and slipped into a regime of ritualism, Marian dogma, semi-pelagian soteriology, and so forth. I’m not saying I would have been Catholic if the RCC still held to the soteriology of Augustine (since my objections run deeper that soteriology), but we would certainly have a far better foundation which to dialog from.

So let’s get off to a better footing shall we?