I'm calling on everyone here in this forum EXCEPT Catholics !!!

[Pixie_Dust]

Might I ask that you learn to use the Quote feature? I don’t need to reply to myself.

RA: I did and I addressed it: "And why didn’t they do those good works??? Because they didn’t know Jesus. You cannot turn this into some treatise on the conditions of salvation/justification to the exclusion of other biblical passages. It’s merely a look at the outer proof from these people that inwardly they did NOT know God – which fits with both Romans and James per my explanation above. if they HAD known God and HAD a true faith, they would have done those good works like the others who were accepted.

That’s not what the text says at all. It wasn’t that they didn’t know Jesus, but that they didn’t do what He said!

RA: You answered your own question and solved the problem at the same time with that one statement. 1. Paul didn’t say “work for” your salvation, did he? He said work it out – i.e., show it in life, work it out, move with it, through each day, be obedient, do good works unto others. Yes, we are to work it out, meaning we already have it! And now, we are to work that inner salvation outwardly in our lives to effect others. Awesome, isn’t it? Moreover, who does it say is doing the work in us? That would be God.

I had it nearly 2000 years ago when Jesus shed His precious blood for my sins and those of the whole world. However, I am being saved and I will be saved if I persevere to the end. I press toward the mark of the high calling of God which is in Christ Jesus.

RA: The passage IN CONTEXT is about our salvation in Christ

yes but our salvation doesn’t come from “accepting Jesus as our Lord and Saviour” - that phrase is found nowhere in Scripture.

– read Romans 3 (our guilty place before God because of the Law), particularly Rom. 3:21 that starts talking about our God’s righteousness being revealed “apart from the law,” which leads into us being justified then “apart from works of the law” (v. 28). This leads directly into Chapter 4, which shows how someone can indeed be justified apart from the law and good works – i.e., Abraham. This is the model for showing how we, too, are justified in Christ.

Apart from works of the law, yes, but not apart from doing works which God has ordained for us to walk in, by His grace.

RA: For what they are intended to do, yes. But they are not FOR salvation. They are BECAUSE of salvation and show to the world the genuineness of one’s faith – i.e., whether it is a living or a dead faith; whether it is a true or false faith.

This is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. Faith and good works are two sides of the same coin. If you have works but no faith, you’re just as lost as you are if you have faith but no works. Can’t have one without the other.

RA: That’s odd. i still seem to be doing good works all over the place…Hmmm.

Except here on this forum where you are demonstrating a real lack of Christian charity.

**RA: **Yes, yes, I know. I was once Roman Catholic myself. I understand the party line.

Ephesians 2:10 is a party line?

The problem is that the Bible doesn’t say you are justified through good works done by God’s grace that is empowering you to do those good works.

No, we are justified by faith, which is a gift of God, and that faith is not something we work up in ourselves.

The Bible says that justification comes THROUGH Jesus Christ, his death on the Cross, and subsequent resurrection. Eternal life/justification is the FREE gift of God (Free means Free) that is appropriated through faith (i.e., like taking a present from someone).

And if you never unwrap a present and use it, it’s not much of a present, is it?

AFTER justification is completed, the good works manifest themselves as a RESULT of the completed justification becuase you have become a slave to righteousness in Christ. You are STILL empowered by God to do those good works that does not change.

You’re preaching to the choir here.

Any and all good works that are done are ONLY capable by the empowerment of God. Cool. But you say those “good works” are still FOR salvation/justification to be justified before God (unbiblical), while I say those are “good works” are BECAUSE of salvation/justification to justify us before men (Paul/James).

In the end, it is our works that we will be judged by, Scripture is clear on that.

BTW, Pixie, just FYI, the position you articulated has pretty much also spread throughout Mormonism. That is actually the whole Mormon teaching on “good works,” which you as a RC prety much echoed. Interesting.

Well the Mormons got one thing almost right - it’s a miracle. Too bad they don’t know the real Jesus and their works are basically useless. I don’t spend much time studying false religions so I’ll have to take your word on that.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Although he has problems unrelated to his apologetic work, Robert Sungenis has written a Magnum Opus on the subject presently under scrutiny by Richard Abanes and company. The book is called “Not By Faith Alone A Study of the Catholic Doctrine of Justification”, published by Queenship Publishing Company, 1997.

A couple of articles by Sungenis on the same subject from his website:

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/works1.htm

catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/sproul-just.htm

These might move the discussion along a bit. Sungenis has written or edited two other significant books, each of them monstrous in length and very slow reading. Just to be helpful: webforum discussions tend to re-invent the wheel over-and-over again, which may be useful for those of us who aren’t quite sure yet how a wheel actually works–but which can make a discussion tedious for those who have gotten the basics down somewhat better.

A head’s up on Sungenis–he tends to favor very severely conservative, even traditionalist Catholicism to the point that he has gone off the edge on some issues–a polite way of saying he has been alleged to be somewhat anti-Semitic at times, among other things. His apologetics don’t touch on such issues, but he does sully his reputation by the association.

I just took a look at the article you thoughtfully provided a link to and here’s a quote from Robert Sungenis that I think fairly sums up his view:

Therefore, in Romans 3:28, Paul really means: “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Ceremonial Law,” (but all other “good” works can, and do, justify a man).

He also cites what he calls a new breed of protestant exegetes, such as N.T. Wright, in their “New Perspective on Paul.” While I agree with some of what Bishop Wright has to say (in this and other areas) I also disagree with some of his views. However, that’s not really as much relevant here as is dealing with the Catholic view as depicted by Sungenis.

I disagree with Sungenis and view good works in a different way. They cannot justify – but rather are the fruit of the faith which justifies. Many opine that the words of James are in conflict with this idea – in particular his discourse at James 2:14-26.

Certainly James never points away from faith as the means of justification, rather he points to the additional requirement of works. However, for whose benefit is James revealing these things for? Does anyone think James believed God had any doubt that Abraham would obey His command to slay Isaac? Does God ever have any doubt pertaining to those He chooses, or is it us who fails to understand who God actually chose? Isn’t this what Paul referring to in his discourse in Romans 9?

 

[sola_scriptura]

That’s why James said, if we do NOT do good works our faith is dead and it won’t save. Therefore it is NOT faith alone.

You’re reading James in isolation IMO. Yes James did say that good works must accompany faith. However, that’s all he said. In other words if we run across someone who is starving and merely greet them with well wishes but ignore their hunger, have we really been conformed to the image of Christ? Obviously not – and isn’t this what we’re predestined for?

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son (Romans 8:29).

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Okay. Whatever. I’ve said my peace. Believe as you will.

“The Truth is out there” – The X-Files.

RA

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Pixie: it is our works that we will be judged by, Scripture is clear on that.

RA: Hmm, well, too bad scripture isn’t clear on exactly HOW MANY “good works” are ENOUGH “good works.” I suppose you’ll just have to take your best guess at that one, work work work work as hard as you can – and hope you made it on judgment day.

Good luck: “‘ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.’ Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due” (Rom. 4:3-4). :sad_bye:

R. A.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Okay. Whatever. I’ve said my peace. Believe as you will.

I believe I’ll stick with the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. Thanks for playing! It was fun and has really strengthened my faith.

“The Truth is out there” – The X-Files.

RA

Truth is a Person, His name is Jesus Christ.

 

[adstrinity]

RA: Hmm, well, too bad scripture isn’t clear on exactly HOW MANY “good works” are ENOUGH “good works.” I suppose you’ll just have to take your best guess at that one, work work work work as hard as you can – and hope you made it on judgment day.

ALL OF THEM!!!

How many good works? You should not stop doing good works. One should never not do good works. One should continually do good works!!! This isn’t even a question. There is no quota there is no ration. Do each and every good work you can even if it comes as a cost to you. The moment you stop doing or lapse in doing good works you do your works and your will and God does not want your will be done. All of them are enough. Anything less requires the Sacrament of Reconcilliation.

 

[emeraldcoast]

"RA: You answered your own question and solved the problem at the same time with that one statement. 1. Paul didn’t say “work for” your salvation, did he? He said work it out – i.e., show it in life, work it out, move with it, through each day, be obedient, do good works unto others. Yes, we are to work it out, meaning we already have it! And now, we are to work that inner salvation outwardly in our lives to effect others. Awesome, isn’t it? Moreover, who does it say is doing the work in us? That would be God. "

I am glad that you are here brother!! God Bless!

 

[sola_scriptura]

ALL OF THEM!!!

How many good works? You should not stop doing good works. One should never not do good works. One should continually do good works!!! This isn’t even a question. There is no quota there is no ration. Do each and every good work you can even if it comes as a cost to you. The moment you stop doing or lapse in doing good works you do your works and your will and God does not want your will be done. All of them are enough. Anything less requires the Sacrament of Reconcilliation.

So you think there’s a measuring rod on good works? So let’s say I don’t do good works for three days, does that mean I need to perform this sacrament you mention? How about 20 days, or 2 days? What’s the barometer?

Should I always doubt that God will keep His promises to me if I fail to meet this unknown quota of good works? Should I believe that there are things, which can separate me from the love of God? Are you saying it’s up to me and not God whether I’m saved or not? Am I my own potter or am I merely the clay?

 

[emeraldcoast]

In the end, it is our works that we will be judged by, Scripture is clear on that.

Well the Mormons got one thing almost right - it’s a miracle. Too bad they don’t know the real Jesus and their works are basically useless. I don’t spend much time studying false religions so I’ll have to take your word on that.

Pixie Dust,

You don’t really believe that in the end we will be judged on our works do you??

~Your Sister in Christ

 

[Richard_Abanes]

Basically, all I want to do is pick some of my favorite little guys…



:extrahappy:

:coffeeread:

:compcoff: (soooooo me)



:tanning: (wishful thinking)

:manvspc: (what happens every time I go on a message board)

RA

 

[emeraldcoast]

Basically, all I want to do is pick some of my favorite little guys…

:compcoff: (soooooo me)



:tanning: (wishful thinking)

:manvspc: (what happens every time I go on a message board)

RA

Oh come on…
:hug1: :grouphug:

 

[adstrinity]

Pixie Dust,

You don’t really believe that in the end we will be judged on our works do you??

~Your Sister in Christ

You’re a female!!! …Good to know! Thanks for sharing.

So you think there’s a measuring rod on good works? So let’s say I don’t do good works for three days, does that mean I need to perform this sacrament you mention? How about 20 days, or 2 days? What’s the barometer?

Should I always doubt that God will keep His promises to me if I fail to meet this unknown quota of good works? Should I believe that there are things, which can separate me from the love of God? Are you saying it’s up to me and not God whether I’m saved or not? Am I my own potter or am I merely the clay?

You. Calm down.

You do not perform the Sacrement, you go to it.

I told you there is no quota.

God promises you nothing if you do not obey His Will.

You should believe that there is only one thing that can separate you from the love of God and that is your separation of love for Him. If you willfully disobey Him and do not Love Him with all your being, then there is a chance.

It is up to you if you want to follow God to be saved. It’s up to God to save you. GOD OWES YOU NOTHING.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Pixie Dust,

You don’t really believe that in the end we will be judged on our works do you??

~Your Sister in Christ

I really believe that Jesus said that we will. Matthew 24:14-30 & 31-46; John 15:1-6; Rom 2:6; and Rev 20:13.

 

[Ag_not]

View attachment 4365

Ooohhhhhhhh my poor head

:hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Ooohhhhhhhh my poor head

:hug3: You’re not alone, dear. Tertullian once said “Arguments about Scripture achieve nothing but a stomachache and a headache.”

 

[Ag_not]

:hug3: You’re not alone, dear. Tertullian once said “Arguments about Scripture achieve nothing but a stomachache and a headache.”

And a very wise man he was too

 

[Pixie_Dust]

And a very wise man he was too

I am very interested in hearing your story about how the Blessed Mother brought you out of agnosticism. Have you posted it somewhere on here?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Let me get this straight, you were an agnostic until very recently and are considering a conversion to the Catholic church and you want me to talk you out of it?
An agnostic.
Considering a conversion to Christianity.
And you want me to talk you out of it?
No way. Pass.

Way late on this but I just wanted to say I could just KISS you (with a holy kiss, of course) for this post.

 

[steve_b]

James says the works about which he is talking is to show PEOPLE his faith and to prove his justification/faith to them – GOD: “I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works.” He doesn’t say “I will obtain my justification by my works.”

Let’s look at a few passages

Jas 2:

13 judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

Feeding and clothing the poor, help the sick, etc etc is the good works that show faith is alive. Those who don’t do this will suffer judgement.

Re: Mt 25:34-45

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?

NO!!!

15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

You think this is doing good works before men? That this means nothing before God?

Mt 25:34-45 shows how linked Jesus is to these good works. Jesus sends those who do NOT do good works to hell, becuse of what? What they did NOT do for the poor they did NOT do for Jesus.

20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23* and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Faith was active in Abraham by his works and his obedience to God, and faith was completed by Abrahams works. That’s why faith is NOT sola.

25* And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
RA:

Read Romans 4:1-5 (see above) and Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” Fairly clear.

IOW grace + faith and NO works of the law.
RA:

**Steve: **We are NOT justified by faith alone.

**RA: **You’ll have to tell God that one when you meet him. But before that day, I suggest you carefully and thoughtfully read Rom. 4:4 if you are trying to be saved by works: “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.” Ouch.

Allow me to let James answer you

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

You confuse grace, good works, works of the law. and faith.
RA:

For the life of me, I can’t understand why in all the world’s religions everyone wants to make sure they get some credit for working their way to God, whether its through “good works,” certain prayers, rites, rituals, ceremonies, etc., etc., etc.

You’re a sola scriptura guy. Show me where Protestantism is allowed in scripture.