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grandfather
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How do you know what God told Joseph, or Mary?
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grandfather
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adrift
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As a matter of fact, I have. But that really has little to do with your assumption because the argumet then is Mary couldn’t conceive without relations because you have never heard of it before. It is a bad argument to use.
to borrow from another [thread.](C:\Users\DeCock\Documents\Ann’s\Were Mary and Joseph Married When Jesus was Born - Catholic Answers Forums.mht)
She asks the angel how can this be? Do you think she was ignorant of how babies are made? Note that she does not say Joseph and I do not have relations but that she doesn’t have realtions with man. A strange question for a wife to ask. She was more than engaged to him as the following versus show.
How could Joseph invade the place where Jesus was held? That to me is unthinkable as well that another child would be born from the place Jesus was.
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onlyvoice
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It does not matter to me whether Mary remained a virgin or not. What is important is to heed the apostles’ exhortations to, “continue in the faith” (Acts 14:22) – that “ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).
I believe it is not right to speculate on matters not revealed by God. We THINK Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and therefore [by our own reasoning], she must be an untouched woman. Then we interpret the Scriptures to justify that belief. I do not believe that is how we “earnestly contend for the faith once delivered.”
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onlyvoice
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From the Scriptures, of course.
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onlyvoice
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Nothing is too difficult for me to believe that something happened, or will happen, if God tells me so. If He says, for example, that a man was swallowed by a fish and vomited out alive after 3 days in its belly, I would not hesitate for one second to believe that it actually happened. Likewise, if He tells me He made the first woman from the rib of the first human being that He created instantaneously from “the dust of the ground,” I would have no problem in believing on that too. Even if He tells me a man named Methusela lived for 969 years, that’s not too difficult for me to believe either.
Examine closely what she said. “How can this be since I do not know a man?” She was referring to the present time – DO NOT KNOW. She did not know her husband then so why should she conceive?
If Mary had planned not to “know” Joseph, or if she had made a vow to remain a virgin, wouldn’t she have said, “How can this be since I have vowed to remain a virgin?” Or, “How can this be since I will not know my husband?”
I’m sorry, but I see that interpretation as trying to justify a preconceived notion.
That is what we THINK, not what God says.
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onlyvoice
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Would you care to give us the details of this couple? Doesn’t matter if you think it’s a bad argument to use, ‘coz I don’t think so.
That’s exactly the problem. We rely more on human reason than on the sure word of God. “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Prov. 3:5).
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bmullins
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So God is limited to a written word? The Word of God is still alive and still reveals to us the depth of Revelation. God is not ‘bound’ into the bible, the bible is a reflection of something we see through a veil, through a reflection. Revelation is still ongoing and is through the Holy Spirit. Don’t try to limit God, he’s limitless.
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adrift
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To interpret the way you do makes it a strange question. She says it generically I know not man not that she is in the first part of marriage. If she had planned to know Joseph she would have I know not Joseph. If she had plaaned to know Joseph she would have assumed that it would be with Joseph. She was married to Joseph waiting to enter his home why would she not assume that he would come to get her that day?
Your onw preconceived notions stop you from seeing that is exactly what Mary is saying. She is asking the angel about her vow. How can it be since I know not man? The question if you were right would have been Oh Joseph and I are going to have a baby?
scripture says that not all is written in it. Show me in scripture that everything that was told to Joseph and Mary is recorded there.
There are many couples who practice a Josephite marriage.
Bartolo Longo, who died in 1926, and his wife, Marianna de Fusco.
Henry II, and Cunigunde of Luxemburg
Louis and Zélie Martin enter into marriage with this vow but later directed by their priest consumated their marriage.
Those are just a few.
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adrift
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Scripture please?
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Michael_Francis
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http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/Off-Topic--Alert.gifWith respect, guys…is it possible to stay on topic?
Several posts deleted.
Please get back on topic and stay there.
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jlhargus
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JL: Song of Solomon4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.“When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.” Matthew 1:24-25 I thought Mary always stayed a virgin.
[Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 **THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.
This gate, Mary’s womb, is to remain shut. It must NOT BE OPENED, NO ONE may enter THROUGH IT. She is to remain ever virgin, NO ONE, no other children are to enter through it. Because The Lord God, Jesus, has entered through Mary the gate of heaven.
[NBRS 30:3 “WHEN A YOUNG WOMAN still living in her father’s house MAKES A VOW TO THE LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 AND HER FATHER HEARS about her vow or pledge BUT SAYS NOTHING TO HER, then all HER VOWS and every pledge by which she obligated herself WILL STAND. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her. 6 "IF SHE MARRIES AFTER SHE MAKES A VOW or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself 7 AND HER HUSBAND HEARS about it BUT SAYS NOTHING to her, THEN HER VOWS or the pledges by which she obligated herself WILL STAND. 8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.]
[Lk1:30 And THE ANGEL SAID unto her FEAR NOT MARY for thou hast found favour with God 31 And behold THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb AND BRING FORTH A SON and shalt CALL HIS NAME JESUS 32 He shall be great and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever and of his kingdom there shall be no end 34 THEN SAID MARY unto the angel HOW SHALL THIS BE SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God] Unless Mary had taken a vow of virginity, as the early Church Fathers taught, why would she, a betrothed woman ask, “HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? Wouldn’t conceiving be the most natural and desired thing for a betrothed to expect, especially a Jewish woman in those times?
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jlhargus
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JL: Yes indeed Trust in the LORD with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. How do we TRUST in the LORD. Listening to the Church the PILLAR and GROUND of TRUTH, 1Tm3:15.
EPH 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world hath been **hid in God **who created all things by Jesus Christ 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be KNOWN BY THE CHURCH the manifold wisdom of God11 ACCORDING TO THE ETERNAL PURPOSE which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord
Paul even checked with that VISIBLE ORGAINIZED Apostolic Fellowship, the Chruch, the pillar and ground of TRUTH, which Christ SENT and PROMISED to lead into ALL TRUTH and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against it.
[Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.]
[Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, **tell it unto the church: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.]
Just as the OT Ark of the Covenant couldn’t be touched by men nor entered into because the presents of God met with His people there. So Mary the Ark of the New Covenant cannot be touched nor entered into because of the presents of God.
Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.
Mary the living ark would contain, in her womb, the real living Word of God, CHRIST, the real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.
2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified
EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle** 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle
LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God
2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims
LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **
2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God
2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?
LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart
LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **
2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts
LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord
2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household
LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house
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PeterGStanley
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Because of her Question - “How can this be since I do not know man?” You would assume that she would think that Joseph was to be the father and would not ask this question as a Jewish woman about to be married.But she asks this question that should make you think - Why? There is also ancient document that infer that Joseph was a much older man possibly in his 60s - not a young man. There are many reason why such a marriage would take place - such as to protect her reputation as she would be a pregnant women without a husband. Possibly to stop other men from approaching her because she had made a vow of virginity - you would think that the Holy Spirit had some role here that allowed Joseph to Marry Her without marital relations after all God is directly involved in this Marriage .Also to understand the scriptures better the English translation does not show entirely what the Greek language ( original language of the gospel ) is saying or is trying to convey it becomes lost in the translation to English.
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Tantum_ergo
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If Mary was betrothed to Joseph and planning on having a normal sex life in marriage, why on earth did she respond to Gabriel with 'how shall this be since I do not know man?"
She was betrothed, and in Jewish law, that meant that she and Joseph were legally bound and could indeed have sexual relationship lawfully. So being told she ‘would conceive’ (not ‘you will conceive this week before your marriage preparation’), wouldn’t she say, “Great, so me and Joe are going to have a boy?” The Messiah in Jewish prophecy was supposed to be a descendant of David (Joseph was, and so was Mary) and a great leader. . .there was nothing in prophecy which said the Messiah would be a Son of God. If Mary was told, you will conceive and bear a son, and she was planning on a normal sex life, why would she say, “I do not know man”??? Did she think God didn’t know the date of her wedding and was telling Him, “wait a minute, I know I’m betrothed and Joe and I can have sex, NOW but it’s considered kind of crass to anticipate the big marriage ceremony, I can’t have this baby until the big wedding night?”
Or was she saying as has been taught by the Church (and the writers of the gospel almost certainly met Mary and were TOLD by her what she had planned and what she knew) that 'look, I want to be a consecrated virgin for God’s glory. In Jewish law though I can’t just go to the nearest convent; I have to have a male protector. So I cleared it through the rabbi that a nice man will marry me and let me live my life as a consecrated virgin under his protection, in order to fulfil the letter of the law, for if a woman makes a vow and her husband permits it, she may do as she vows." And if she planned that, her response to Gabriel makes perfect sense, “Wait, God wants ME to have a baby? Me, a consecrated virgin? I have no plans to have sex but if I’m engaged to be married you must be telling me that Joseph and I will be full husband and wife? How can this be if I have promised God my virginity? How can I do God’s will if His will is for me to be a virgin and now you’re saying His will is that I have a baby?”
And THAT"S when Gabriel tells her that it’s not about Joseph. . .'the holy one to be born of the overshadowing of the Spirit will be the Son of God."
IOW, Mary is to remain a virgin and have a child . . .not Joseph’s child, but the Son of God.
And she does.
And remember, Scripture never ever mentions any other child as being the child of Mary except for Jesus.
Ever.
And there were literally thousands of Scripture scholars reading the bible for 1500 years before some (not all) Protestants came along. How come they had no trouble preaching and teaching her Perpetual Virginity when they read the same words ‘until’ that we read today? How come written prayers about her Virginity date back to the 3rd century and there are no works talking about “Jesus’s family: Mary, Joseph, and all the brothers and sisters”?
po18guy
Well-known member
Here, you are assuming a very modern anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox (even anti-protestant!) Christian view, which is inconsistent with scripture and adds facts that are not in scripture. As well, it relies only on private interpretation of the Church’s scripture - private interpretation which is prohibited and spoken of by the very same bible (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16).
In Luke 1:38, Mary declared herself to be the bond slave of the Lord. How much freedom does a bond slave have? Those who were involuntarily enslaved had no freedom except that granted by their master. But Mary enslaved herself, in full knowledge, and after questioning and contemplating Gabriel’s message to her. During her visitation to the house of Zechariah, Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking infallibly, declared Mary to be “the mother of my Lord” (Luke 1:43). Since Jesus, even in His human nature, cannot be separated from the Father and the Holy Spirit, He is also the Lord. You and I both call Him Lord. In this sense, Mary declared herself to be the bond slave of her own Son, Who is also Lord, correct? We can see this from the fact that she was with Him from the annunciuation to the crucifixion, bearing witness to her status.
Anecdotally, I know a couple that have been married for 30 years, and have not consummated that marriage. And, the wife was not visited by an angel, and is not a bond slave of the Lord. If someone who is absolutely free to have children chooses not to, are you saying that someone who was not planning to have even one child, could not remain virgin?
Name Mary’s “other children” from scripture. Name Joseph’s children from scripture. Please! If you read the bible at all, you know that the “brother” and “sister” argument is silly, as it applies to numerous other persons and situations.
And, for over 1,500 years, there was no thought that the mother of the Son of God would even consider for the slightest moment that she was no longer the bond slave of the Lord and was free to have a child (this also adds to scripture that she wanted a child, and that the couple was capable of producing a child).
Please explain this: Mary was betrothed, as you have said. She was in that exact state when Gabriel visited her. Yet, look at her words, her question to Gabriel when he told her that she was to conceive and bear a son: “How is this to happen, since I do not know man?” (Luke 1:34). Slow down just a minute here and think about this particular situation for probably the first time since you have been Christian:
- Virgin
- Betrothed
- Soon to live with her husband
- Knows children are produced by “knowledge of man”
- Is so perplexed that she questions Gabriel how on earth she is going to conceive.
Indeed, since the three main founders of the protestant rebellion either believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity (Luther, Zwingli), or did not reject it (Calvin), the proper question here is:
What has happened to protestantism?
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Almagore
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I agree 100%
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PJM
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From Haydock’s Catholic Commentary:I thought Mary always stayed a virgin.
Matt.1:24-25
Ver. 18. The account of the birth of Jesus Christ follows his genealogy. From these words, “before they came together,” Helvidius and others have started objections, which have been answered long ago by St. Jerome, where he shews in many examples from Scripture, that the words before and until do not signify what happened afterwards; for that point is left indefinite, but only what was done before, or not done. Thus when it is said, Sit thou at my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool, Psalm cix, by no means signifies, that after the subjection of his enemies, the Son of God is no longer to sit at the right hand of his Father. In common conversation, when we say that a man died before he reached his 30th year, we do not mean that he afterwards attained it. Or, should we say that Helvidius died before he did penance, we cannot mean that he afterwards did penance: the same conclusion should be deduced from the words, “before they came together,” the end being accomplished by the power of the operation of the Holy Ghost, without their going together. If we should advance, that such a man was cured before he went to a physician, the natural inference would be, that he did not go to a physician at all.
Ver. 24. The heretic Helvidius argues from this text, and from what we read in the gospel of Christ’s brethren, that Christ had brothers, and Mary other sons. But it is evident that in the style of the Scriptures, they who were no more than cousins were called brothers and sisters. (Haydock)
Ver. 25. See note on ver. 18. — St. Jerome assures us, that St. Joseph always preserved his virginal chastity. It is “of faith” that nothing contrary thereto ever took place with his chaste spouse, the blessed Virgin Mary. St. Joseph was given her by heaven to be the protector of her chastity, to secure her from calumnies in the birth of the Son of God, to assist her in her flight into Egypt, &c. &c. We cannot sufficiently admire the modest reserve of both parties. Mary does not venture to explain to her troubled husband the mystery of her pregnancy; and Joseph is afraid of mentioning his uneasiness and doubts, for fear of troubling her delicate mind and wounding her exquisite feelings. So great modesty, reserve and silence, are sure to be approved by heaven; and God sends an angel to Joseph in his sleep, to dissipate his doubts, and to expound to him the mystery of the incarnation. (Haydock)
That explains it well
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grandfather
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Are you saying the scriptures tell us everything God told Mary and Joseph?
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grandfather
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