I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[ralphinal]

I would say that this is the context Paul was refering to when he wrote about having the saints pray for you. He didn’t mean pray to dead people so they could pass it along to God.

So you would not refuse another’s request for prayer?

 

[Cat]

Chris, I just noticed something in your profile. You’re only 26.

I’m 51. I’ve lost a lot of people. Maybe you have, too, since many young people are in the military and on the front lines overseas. Or maybe you’ve experienced deaths in your family. I hope not, because that’s sad for someone so young.

At any rate, as you grow older and lose people who are dear to you, you begin to recognize that these people aren’t dead. My mother is still alive. I talk to her.

All the intellectual arguments that you have grown up with in evangelical churches will dissipate when you lose someone you love. You will realize that they really have nothing to support those arguments with other than a few verses of Scripture in the Old Testament, and one verse that talks about Jesus is our mediator.

But there are other verses and passages that imply that it IS right and good to speak with those who are in heaven. I mentioned the transfiguration. There are several passages in Revelation that speak of the prayers of the saints in heaven. The entire book of Revelation reveals a whole spiritual world that is all around us and happening at this very moment. We are part of something much bigger than our own small lives.

You must read the Scripture in its entirety in order to use it to argue against the ancient traditions of Christians. You can’t take it out of context, picking and choosing verses that support your POV and ignoring all the troublesome verses.

Someone who talks to saints does not dishonor Christ, but rather, we honor Him by taking seriously His Scriptures that say that the Dead are Alive in Christ.

Perhaps when you lose someone you love dearly, it will be easier for you to see why you would ever want to talk to “some dead guy.” I hope this doesn’t happen anytime soon for you and your loved ones–long life to all of you.

 

[churchcamefirst]

The historic Christian practice of asking the saints for their intercession is that it is shared by more than 3/4 of the Christians on earth.
But it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the 16th century.
Revelation 5:8 tells it all.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do.
1Tim 2:1-4
Rom 15:30-32
Eph 6:18-20
Col 4:3
1 Thess 5:25
2 Thess 3:1
2 Thess 1:11
Matt 5:44
Heb 12:22-23

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I’m sorry, but your mental gymnastics don’t pass for logic.

Mental gymnastics…

Your kind of logic produces a paper god securely bound between a leather cover.

There is no sweeping generalization. It is a fact that much of the Catholic doctrines and dogma do not square with Scripture. And as for Tradition, of course the Scriptures were built upon much tradition, but here and again if you are coming out with so called traditions that do not square with Biblical teachings, the so called traditions then would not be truth. And the the revolving door game with Scripture interpretation doesn’t cut it either.

Thanks, I got what I expected… No answers, no insight and tired old rhetoric.

I can show you a dozen Catholics right now in my old parish that have six different points of view on Scripture and Tradition and a couple of them that are not too fond of Benedict XVI!

What of it? I can show you a half dozen denominations who have different points of view on Scripture and a few of them think well of Benedict.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

So you would not refuse another’s request for prayer?

No.

But that doesn’t mean we are to pray to dead people to intercede for us with God. Jesus is the only go-between with us and the Father. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

The historic Christian practice of asking the saints for their intercession is that it is shared by more than 3/4 of the Christians on earth.
But it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the 16th century.
Revelation 5:8 tells it all.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do.
1Tim 2:1-4
Rom 15:30-32
Eph 6:18-20
Col 4:3
1 Thess 5:25
2 Thess 3:1
2 Thess 1:11
Matt 5:44
Heb 12:22-23

None of these verses is about praying to dead people who are in heaven. Rather, these verses are compelling us to have our fellow believers at church pray for us. You don’t have to be dead to be a saint.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

chris,
I may have misunderstood your statement. I have to ask, are you saying Jesus is some dead guy?
The Bible teaches Our Lord is the God of the living. Mt.22:32
When a person dies they are immediatly in the presense of the Lord. Do you know what happens then? I’ll let you tell me.

God bless,
jean8

No. My question was:

If you can pray directly to Jesus (A.K.A. God in human flesh), why would you want to pray to a saint ?(A.K.A. some dead guy)

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Are you a man or a woman?

I am a male.

And Jesus is God, which means he understands us better than we understand ourselves. He also understands what we are going through better than we do.

 

[sambos671]

No. My question was:

If you can pray directly to Jesus (A.K.A. God in human flesh), why would you want to pray to a saint ?(A.K.A. some dead guy)

My thought to many non catholics on this issue would be this. When a Christian dies and goes to heaven are they no longer apart of the body of God? they cease to be a part of christianity? Do you think heaven is only about self indulgent praise of God? Or do you think we will be about God’s work. do you think being in the presence of God diminishes our role in the church? How much more then can you imagine we would wish to be a servant to God’s church? The Angles are particpants with God and they have a work regarding our salvation. They proclaim it and they are mentioned throughout scripture. Everytime there is an act of God Angles are present why? They aren’t being saved yet the scriptures tell us they look into these matters. Why? They’re with God? So then how much more the christian who is redeemed?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am fed up with the false misconceptions by Protestant Christians who insist that we worship Mary and the saints. I will put this in plain English.

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary and the saints. It is veneration and honor due to them because they lived out the life that Jesus Christ taught them! They are also in Heaven with God. They are much closer to God than you and me.

I get the same cringes, when I come across threads that make this false claim about Mary. I have to pause and pray, or not engage. The Mysteries of the Holy things of God, Jesus told us not give them to swine less they trample them. Protect the pearl of Grace in your soul. The blessed Mother experiences her birth pains with us who suffer for Christ and those who reject his Mother in order to come to Christ. In the end every knee will bow in heaven, under the earth, and on the earth. It will be a surprising sight when seperated brothers find Mary with her Son in heaven. We must pray for them, our blessed Mother Mary would not want any harm to come to them, as She prays for all of us. IF I can give any encouragement here is; that We as Catholics are bless’d to be in the family of God, where we have a Father, Mother, Brother in Jesus and all of us who recognized this Catholic family since the foot at the Cross.

Peace

 

[Chris_LaRock]

My thought to many non catholics on this issue would be this. When a Christian dies and goes to heaven are they no longer apart of the body of God? they cease to be a part of christianity? Do you think heaven is only about self indulgent praise of God? Or do you think we will be about God’s work. do you think being in the presence of God diminishes our role in the church? How much more then can you imagine we would wish to be a servant to God’s church? The Angles are particpants with God and they have a work regarding our salvation. They proclaim it and they are mentioned throughout scripture. Everytime there is an act of God Angles are present why? They aren’t being saved yet the scriptures tell us they look into these matters. Why? They’re with God? So then how much more the christian who is redeemed?

But Jesus Christ alone is our go-between. He is our only advocate with God the Father.

Let’s suppose you are praying to Mary, or a saint. An image of that person appears in front of you. Do you assume the spirit is who you think it is, or do you test the spirit to see if it is from God?

Praying to Mary or the Saints opens you up to be tricked by demons.

 

[ralphinal]

Chris, if I asked you to pray for me, will you tell me that Jesus is the only advocate with the Father?

 

[ralphinal]

But Jesus Christ alone is our go-between. He is our only advocate with God the Father.

Let’s suppose you are praying to Mary, or a saint. An image of that person appears in front of you. Do you assume the spirit is who you think it is, or do you test the spirit to see if it is from God?

Praying to Mary or the Saints opens you up to be tricked by demons.

Unrelated. If you are praying to Jesus or the Father and an image appears, do you know it is from God?

 

[Cat]

But Jesus Christ alone is our go-between. He is our only advocate with God the Father.

Let’s suppose you are praying to Mary, or a saint. An image of that person appears in front of you. Do you assume the spirit is who you think it is, or do you test the spirit to see if it is from God?

Praying to Mary or the Saints opens you up to be tricked by demons.

You’re reaching on this. I would venture to say that 99% of Catholics have never seen a “vision” of Mary or any of the saints.

Don’t you have faith in God? Do you not believe He will protect us as we commune with Him and call upon His saints to pray for us? Do you honestly think that the Lord will allow a demon to attack or oppress a Christian who is truly seeking the Will of God and His answers to their prayers?

Asking a human being on this earth to pray for you opens you up to be maligned and gossiped about. But you should ask anyway.

I think you’re making a big deal out of a little deal. I said it once before and I’ll say it again–Catholics are not required to ask for the intercession of saints. If you become Catholic, you are free to utterly ignore the saints, other than to respect their lives.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You’re reaching on this. I would venture to say that 99% of Catholics have never seen a “vision” of Mary or any of the saints.

Sure we all have, you never seen the vision on the miraculous tillma of Our lady of Guadalupe and others? You know some Jw’s exploded a bomb near the vision, all got ruined except the vision on the tillma. Scientists are still stumped by this vision and cannot explain it, other than it comes from the divine. Besides the visioin reflects her coronation from Revelations 11:29-12:1

 

[sambos671]

But Jesus Christ alone is our go-between. He is our only advocate with God the Father.

Let’s suppose you are praying to Mary, or a saint. An image of that person appears in front of you. Do you assume the spirit is who you think it is, or do you test the spirit to see if it is from God?

Praying to Mary or the Saints opens you up to be tricked by demons.

So by your logic a christian should never ask another to pray for them because if they do Satan may attack them? Keep in minds Catholics understand the meaning of worship than what you do. for you prayer is worship. To the Catholic it’s communication. ie I pray thee well.

 

[Peter_J]

I read that into what you said. Sorry.

I see no reason to change what we say because English speakers are poorly educated. We have no way to compell anyone else to use our terminology. I guess I do not have a solution.

If you mean that we have no way to force others to understand the phrase “pray to Mary” as “honor Mary and ask her to pray for us”, then I agree.

But my question is, even if there were a way why would we want to?

To me it just doesn’t make sense for Catholics to say to Protestants “We can talk with you about these issue, IF you first agree with us that ‘pray to Mary’ means ‘honor Mary and ask her to pray for us’.” Just as it doesn’t make sense for Protestants to say to Catholics “We can talk with you about these issue, IF you first agree with us that ‘pray to Mary’ doesn’t mean ‘honor Mary and ask her to pray for us’.”

What right do any of us have to place that kind of pre-condition on a dialogue?

 

[adstrinity]

If you are praying directly to Jesus, as we are told to do, why would you want to pray to some dead guy?

Ah-ah. You changed the premise. You asked what can they do initially. I answered you. Now you are implying that they cannot, when I told you that they indeed can.

Also, I also ask women to bring my petitions before God.

 

[ralphinal]

If you mean that we have no way to force others to understand the phrase “pray to Mary” as “honor Mary and ask her to pray for us”, then I agree.

But my question is, even if there were a way why would we want to?

To me it just doesn’t make sense for Catholics to say to Protestants “We can talk with you about these issue, IF you first agree with us that ‘pray to Mary’ means ‘honor Mary and ask her to pray for us’.” Just as it doesn’t make sense for Protestants to say to Catholics “We can talk with you about these issue, IF you first agree with us that ‘pray to Mary’ doesn’t mean ‘honor Mary and ask her to pray for us’.”

What right do any of us have to place that kind of pre-condition on a dialogue?

Other than dialog implies coming to common terms together. If we cannot reach an agreement on what the words themselves mean, then the doctrines are useless.

 

[hays1122]

Cat;4208232:

You’re reaching on this. I would venture to say that 99% of Catholics have never seen a “vision” of Mary or any of the saints.

Sure we all have, you never seen the vision on the miraculous tillma of Our lady of Guadalupe and others? You know some Jw’s exploded a bomb near the vision, all got ruined except the vision on the tillma. Scientists are still stumped by this vision and cannot explain it, other than it comes from the divine. Besides the visioin reflects her coronation from Revelations 11:29-12:1

Where can I see this "the miraculous tillma of Our lady of Guadalupe "? I typed this into google and didn’t find anything that showed what this vision is. Can you give me a website so I can see what you are referring to please.
I find this very interesting when I read about the visions that catholics have had around the world. Why don’t Methodists or Lutherans see Mary? I have heard of non catholics seeing visions of Jesus but never Mary. I also wonder about other religions. What do muslims,Buddists, have visions of?