I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[SIA]

Were Adam and Eve created imperfect?

I know where you are going with this. My answer is that God chose Mary for a special purpose, he didn’t give her divinity. She was a human (imperfect) creature given grace by God to give a virgin birth to the Messiah. Nothing in Scripture elevates her to divinity.

Adam and Eve ruined their perfection which we all have inherited ever since called original sin.

 

[Thing]

Where does Scripture say that Jesus was the new Adam and Mary the new Eve? It’s a matter of perspective which we don’t share.

For by a man came death, and by a man the resurrection of the dead. 22 And as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.

…Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.

45 The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

 

[SIA]

Thing:
okay, and Mary?

 

[Thing]

I know where you are going with this. My answer is that God chose Mary for a special purpose, he didn’t give her divinity. She was a human (imperfect) creature given grace by God to give a virgin birth to the Messiah. Nothing in Scripture elevates her to divinity.

Adam and Eve ruined their perfection which we all have inherited ever since called original sin.

Who told you He gave her divinity, did Adam and Eve have divinity?

 

[Thing]

okay, and Mary?

SIA:

It’s a matter of perspective which we don’t share.

I’m sorry, but your perspective has just changed, I think?
You may as well be killed for a sheep as a goat.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

I know where you are going with this. My answer is that God chose Mary for a special purpose, he didn’t give her divinity. She was a human (imperfect) creature given grace by God to give a virgin birth to the Messiah. Nothing in Scripture elevates her to divinity.

Adam and Eve ruined their perfection which we all have inherited ever since called original sin.

Really SIA, this doesn’t make any sense… Unless you equate the sinlessness of a created being as somehow being divine in nature, which, by-the-way, is a ridiculous notion.

 

[Mannyfit75]

okay, and Mary?

St. Ireneus, Bishop of Lyons said:

Jesus Christ is the New Adam, the Lord of the New Creation ( I Cor. 15:45-49 ) and Mary the New Eve who undid what the first Eve had done. The first Eve disobeyed God and thereby brought sin and death into the world. The New Eve, Mary, obeyed and believed God’s message which was given to her at the Annunciation ( Lk .1 :26-38 ), and brought salvation and life to the world in her son, Jesus, who crushes the head of the serpent. Mary, like us, shares in this victory .

Tertullian ( +220 ), another Church Father, used the Eve-Mary parallel as a secondary argument in favor of the virginal conception of Jesus Christ and emphasizes the act of faith involved. Building on the insights of Justin, Ireneus and Tertullian, the theme of the Eve-Mary parallel was expanded upon after the Council of Nicaea in the year 325.

St. Ambrose of Milan ( +397 ) writes, “it was through a man and woman that flesh was cast from paradise; it was through a virgin that flesh was linked to God.” St. Jerome (+420 ) succinctly stated, “Death through Eve, Life through Mary.” (Epist. 22,2 I ). St. Peter Chrysologus ( +450 ) picked up on this theme in his writings, “Christ was born of a woman so that just as death came through a woman, so through Mary, life might return.”

In our own century. Pope Pius XII is responsible for the principle papal contributions on this theme. In the Encyclical, AD CAELI REGINAM. dated 11 Oct. 1954, he wrote: "Mary, in the work of Redemption was by God’s will, joined with Jesus Christ, the cause of salvation, in much the same way as Eve was joined with Adam. the cause of death.

The Fathers of the Second Vatican Council recall the Eve-Mary parallel in the document on the Church. LUMEN GENTIUM, Chapter 8, the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They quote from the Church Fathers, Sts. Ireneus, Jerome, and Epiphanius : "What the virgin Eve bound by her unbelief, Mary loosened by her faith, "( L.G. 56 ) In the same document, the Eve-Mary parallel is treated in relation to the Church: “For believing and obeying, Mary brought forth on earth the Father’s Son. This she did, knowing not man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, as the New Eve. who put absolute trust. not in the ancient serpent, but in the messenger of God.( L.G. 63) We, the faithful of the Church are called to follow Mary’s example of trusting faith and fidelity to the Holy Will of God.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I just don’t see why the Immaculate Conception and Marian devotion is such a tough concept for protestants? Mother of God. Think of that for a minute! Mother of God. It’s in the Creed! Theotokos! Mary shares the blood of Christ, literally. The same blood flows in their veins. She CHOSE to bear him as her Only Son. She could have said no, but chose this sublime responsibility. She wasn’t a run of the mill woman. The tired argument that David, Moses, Jeremiah and all the other guys were just typical sinners used by God so why isn’t Mary? is just cheesy and comparing apples and oranges.

This is the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, guys! None of us can understand Mary’s role in Jesus’ earliest days as a little toddler, child, and teenager. What role did she play in His upbringing? It must’ve been powerful indeed. And to bring a perfect child through an imperfect womb makes no sense.

Mary was with Christ at many of His most critical moments from protecting Him as a baby to Cana to some of His early preaching to the Passion and beyond to the pieta moment of holding her sweet Son’s dead body in her arms.

She is closer to Christ than anyone ever born. Why is it a tough concept to ask her to pray WITH US to her Son whom she is closer to than anyone?

When I was a kid and I went to Sean or Steve or Scott’s house, I rang the doorbell and who came to the door? Mom. “Can Scott come out and play?” Imagine knocking on Jesus’ door, who would answer most likely? Who ever knows a little boy better than his mother?

No one is worshipping Mary over Jesus. It’s poppycock and protestants know it. I heard one person on this thread say that asking Mary’s intercession opens the way to demons!? I think much the opposite…I think a denial of Mary’s intercession, purity, aid and devotion shows a diabiolical force at work in the intellect. Simple math equation: Jesus is the Church, Mary gave birth to Jesus, Mary is the Mother of the Church. It doesn’t take trigonometry for that one…

 

[hays1122]

I believe that on Judgment day God will want to know what we did for His glory on earth. Did we live our lives so that He was glorified.
There are too many things we need to be working on in our own lives to be finding fault.
It’s such a complicated situation really.
If we say, “Lets just all get along,lets agree that we worship the one true God” ,then someone will accuse us of getting ready for that “One world religion and the anti-Christ”. There are enough religions out there that we know don’t put our Lord Jesus Christ first.
Why not concentrate on those other religions instead of attacking the beliefs of those who put Jesus Christ in the same throne as we do. Protestants are “protesters”. That’s why they don’t agree with any of the many protestant denominations.
I find it intersting too that there are white churches,black churches,mexican american churches. Why is that?
That’s one thing I think our Lord in heaven is not pleased with.
Is that the true sign of christian love when we have separate churches for different races within our denominations?
Lets work on that!

 

[theistgal]

I know where you are going with this. My answer is that God chose Mary for a special purpose, he didn’t give her divinity. She was a human (imperfect) creature given grace by God to give a virgin birth to the Messiah. Nothing in Scripture elevates her to divinity.

Adam and Eve ruined their perfection which we all have inherited ever since called original sin.

So I take it you don’t agree with the Eastern Christian idea of “theosis”?

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

This is the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, guys! None of us can understand Mary’s role in Jesus’ earliest days as a little toddler, child, and teenager. What role did she play in His upbringing? It must’ve been powerful indeed. And to bring a perfect child through an imperfect womb makes no sense.

I certainly would not deny the importance which Mary played in Jesus’ life and especially his upbringing, but I feel that there is often undue emphasis placed by the Catholic Church on the credit and honor ascribed to Mary for her role. When a lathe, a chisel, or a level is used to produce a fine carving, do we honor the tools or the craftsman? Mary’s faith and obedience to God is most certainly a great example to all believers, but in the same manner that great acts of faith and obedience by all believers are an example unto others.

When I read the words “Blessed are you among all women” I do not read that as “you are being placed above others because of your great faithfulness” but rather “you are blessed among women because God has chosen to come into the world through you”. That blessedness is thus not due to an inherent characteristic of Mary, but rather is completely tied to the actions of God giving her the gift of bearing the our Savior.

 

[LilyM]

I certainly would not deny the importance which Mary played in Jesus’ life and especially his upbringing, but I feel that there is often undue emphasis placed by the Catholic Church on the credit and honor ascribed to Mary for her role. When a lathe, a chisel, or a level is used to produce a fine carving, do we honor the tools or the craftsman? Mary’s faith and obedience to God is most certainly a great example to all believers, but in the same manner that great acts of faith and obedience by all believers are an example unto others.

When I read the words “Blessed are you among all women” I do not read that as “you are being placed above others because of your great faithfulness” but rather “you are blessed among women because God has chosen to come into the world through you”. That blessedness is thus not due to an inherent characteristic of Mary, but rather is completely tied to the actions of God giving her the gift of bearing the our Savior.

Since when is a human being comparable to a mere tool? You prefer to denigrate the whole human race and all the work we do rather than elevate Mary to her rightful position.

WE do God’s will because we CHOOSE to, as evidenced by the fact that Adam and Eve had free choice NOT to, that Jonah chose (for a time) NOT to. We most emphatically do not act as a mere chisel or lathe which can neither know anything nor choose to do anything.

And you further must denigrate the Mother of God by calling her task a mere ‘role’ - with that label you turn her into a mere tradesman who does his work only half the day and then only because he is paid to do it!

As if raising the Son of God, her task which was taken on out of pure utterly unselfish love of God, was not something so extraordinary, and so utterly overwhelming for any ordinary mortal, that probably none of us besides her, the Immaculate one, would’ve dared accept - or could’ve successfully done it!

It was a task SO out of the common way that Mary absolutely would’ve needed to be prepared for it from the moment of her conception.

The even worse alternative, of course, inherent in calling her task a ‘role’ is to turn her into a mere actor who makes a living by pretending to be something they are not!

In any event, you show a profound lack of understanding of what it actually MEANS to bear and raise the Son of God.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Since when is a human being comparable to a mere tool? You prefer to denigrate the whole human race and all the work we do rather than elevate Mary to her rightful position.

WE do God’s will because we CHOOSE to, as evidenced by the fact that Adam and Eve had free choice NOT to, that Jonah chose (for a time) NOT to. We most emphatically do not act as a mere chisel or lathe which can neither know anything nor choose to do anything.

And you further must denigrate the Mother of God by calling her task a mere ‘role’ - with that label you turn her into a mere tradesman who does his work only half the day and then only because he is paid to do it!

As if raising the Son of God, her task which was taken on out of pure utterly unselfish love of God, was not something so extraordinary, and so utterly overwhelming for any ordinary mortal, that probably none of us besides her, the Immaculate one, would’ve dared accept - or could’ve successfully done it!

It was a task SO out of the common way that Mary absolutely would’ve needed to be prepared for it from the moment of her conception.

The even worse alternative, of course, inherent in calling her task a ‘role’ is to turn her into a mere actor who makes a living by pretending to be something they are not!

In any event, you show a profound lack of understanding of what it actually MEANS to bear and raise the Son of God.

There are many analogies used in the bible to describe the relationship between humanity and God, with different analogies capturing different aspects of that relationship…do Isaiah and Paul denigrate the human race when they compare us to clay in the hands of a potter?

I make no claim to personal righteousness or that I have any conception of what it was like to bring Jesus into the world, and I do not deny that it must have been a very difficult path of faith to walk. The choice to obey God is a significant and laudable one, but it is the choice of obedience to God that is important, not the use to which He puts us once we have surrendered to Him.

If we claim that the power to do God’s will comes from our own personal strength then I believe we are in error. God does not require our strength, he desires our humility and obedience.

There is no disgrace is acknowledging our weakness and inability to do what is right outside of the grace of God. Mary is an inspiring example of faith not because of some great and mystical personal strength, but because she submitted herself to God to do the work for which He had set her aside.

 

[adstrinity]

Since when is a human being comparable to a mere tool? You prefer to denigrate the whole human race and all the work we do rather than elevate Mary to her rightful position.

WE do God’s will because we CHOOSE to, as evidenced by the fact that Adam and Eve had free choice NOT to, that Jonah chose (for a time) NOT to. We most emphatically do not act as a mere chisel or lathe which can neither know anything nor choose to do anything.

And you further must denigrate the Mother of God by calling her task a mere ‘role’ - with that label you turn her into a mere tradesman who does his work only half the day and then only because he is paid to do it!

As if raising the Son of God, her task which was taken on out of pure utterly unselfish love of God, was not something so extraordinary, and so utterly overwhelming for any ordinary mortal, that probably none of us besides her, the Immaculate one, would’ve dared accept - or could’ve successfully done it!

It was a task SO out of the common way that Mary absolutely would’ve needed to be prepared for it from the moment of her conception.

The even worse alternative, of course, inherent in calling her task a ‘role’ is to turn her into a mere actor who makes a living by pretending to be something they are not!

In any event, you show a profound lack of understanding of what it actually MEANS to bear and raise the Son of God.

Yes, I was upset, too that the poster, a_mirror_dimly, used this analogy, but, think about it a bit more…if it wasn’t for those instruments, the masterpiece would not turn out as it did. It is BECAUSE of those tools that the craftsman uses, the statue turns out beautifully and it is only because of them, that the work has any merit at all, i.e., Jesus turned out to be compassionate and fully human because he got this from His Mother in both Nature and Nurture. It’s not a horrible analogy, but, what analogy isn’t lacking?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I certainly would not deny the importance which Mary played in Jesus’ life and especially his upbringing, but I feel that there is often undue emphasis placed by the Catholic Church on the credit and honor ascribed to Mary for her role. When a lathe, a chisel, or a level is used to produce a fine carving, do we honor the tools or the craftsman? Mary’s faith and obedience to God is most certainly a great example to all believers, but in the same manner that great acts of faith and obedience by all believers are an example unto others.

When I read the words “Blessed are you among all women” I do not read that as “you are being placed above others because of your great faithfulness” but rather “you are blessed among women because God has chosen to come into the world through you”. That blessedness is thus not due to an inherent characteristic of Mary, but rather is completely tied to the actions of God giving her the gift of bearing the our Savior.

Respectfully I must say I again disagree. We must respect Mary because God Himself made her and chose her and she followed Him all the way. I can hardly compare the Blessed Virgin Mary with a chisel or paint brush. She is no mere instrument but a servant–the servant of servants in my opinion. She is a creation of God so therefore we do NOT worship her. But this wonderful creation had a free will to say no to God, she did not have to take the destiny she chose. She uniquely participated in our salvation! She herself was part of a plan before the foundation of the world to bring us sweet perfection and the Savior of the World! How can we not pay her homage and give her devotion? I’m so thankful and loving to my mother for giving me life. Now of course God gave me life through my mom but what if my mom had been one of those selfish types that says, “I don’t want kids!” My mom chose to cooperate with God and I’m here as a result. And who am I? I’m nothing compared to Christ! How much more should we thank the loving woman that opened her womb to GOD! And look at the rich tradition starting so early in the Church of paying her homage and devotion. It’s so illogical and just implausible that God would permit His Church to pay homage to Mary for 1500 years and allow ‘idolatry’??? I just can’t imagine how Christ would tell John, “woman, behold your son, son behold your mother” without a Church concept behind it and more meaning than just a ‘take care of her for me when I’m gone, ok?’ context? The historic Church has given Mary far too much love, devotion, and prominence to be discounted and chided 1500 years after the fact. She is the mother of God with the Son of Man’s blood in her veins. She’s no chisel! She’s my mother.

 

[Leeann]

This thread hasn’t been posted in for awhile - but I’d like to make a post with regards to some of the prayers that may incline protestants to believe that the “adoration” or “veneration” offered to Mary…or the requests passed on to her…tend to lean more towards full on “worship” and why they see it like that.

www.catholic.org website

The first prayer is to Jesus:

Act of Consecration to Jesus
*Lord Jesus Christ, I consecrate myself today anew and without reserve to your divine Heart. **I consecrate to you my body with all its senses, my soul with all its faculties, my entire being. I consecrate to you all my thoughts, words and deeds, all my sufferings and labors, all my hopes, consolations and joys. In particular I consecrate to you this poor heart of mine so that it may love only you and may be consumed as a victim in the fire of your love. **
I place my trust in you without reserve and I hope for the remission of my sins through your infinite mercy. I place within your hands all my cares and anxieties. I promise to love you and to honor you till the last moment of my life, and to spread, as much as I can, devotion to your most Sacred Heart.

Do with me what you will, my Jesus. I deserve no other reward except your greater glory and your holy love. Take this offering of myself and give me a place within your divine Heart forever. Amen. *

The next are to Mary:

Act of Consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary

I.

I venerate thee with all my heart,
O Virgin most holy,
above all Angels and Saints in paradise,
as the daughter of the Eternal Father,
and to thee I consecrate my soul with all its powers.

Hail Mary…

II.

I venerate thee with all my heart,
O Virgin most holy,
above all Angels and Saints in paradise,
as the Mother of the only begotten Son,
and** to thee I consecrate my body with all its senses.**

Hail Mary…

III.

I venerate thee with all my heart,
O Virgin most holy,
above all Angels and Saints in paradise,
as the beloved Spouse of the Spirit of God,
**and to thee I consecrate my heart and all its affections, **imploring thee to obtain for me from the Most Holy Trinity
all the means of salvation.

Hail Mary…

AND:

Act of Oblation to the Blessed Virgin Mary

My Queen! my Mother!
**I give thee all myself, and,
to show my devotion to thee,
I consecrate to thee my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart, my entire self. **
Wherefore, O loving Mother,
as I am thine own,
keep me, defend me,
as thy property and possession.

Amen.

You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

Respectfully I must say I again disagree. We must respect Mary because God Himself made her and chose her and she followed Him all the way. I can hardly compare the Blessed Virgin Mary with a chisel or paint brush. She is no mere instrument but a servant–the servant of servants in my opinion. She is a creation of God so therefore we do NOT worship her. But this wonderful creation had a free will to say no to God, she did not have to take the destiny she chose. She uniquely participated in our salvation! She herself was part of a plan before the foundation of the world to bring us sweet perfection and the Savior of the World! How can we not pay her homage and give her devotion? I’m so thankful and loving to my mother for giving me life. Now of course God gave me life through my mom but what if my mom had been one of those selfish types that says, “I don’t want kids!” My mom chose to cooperate with God and I’m here as a result. And who am I? I’m nothing compared to Christ! How much more should we thank the loving woman that opened her womb to GOD! And look at the rich tradition starting so early in the Church of paying her homage and devotion. It’s so illogical and just implausible that God would permit His Church to pay homage to Mary for 1500 years and allow ‘idolatry’??? I just can’t imagine how Christ would tell John, “woman, behold your son, son behold your mother” without a Church concept behind it and more meaning than just a ‘take care of her for me when I’m gone, ok?’ context? The historic Church has given Mary far too much love, devotion, and prominence to be discounted and chided 1500 years after the fact. She is the mother of God with the Son of Man’s blood in her veins. She’s no chisel! She’s my mother.

You are correct that the relation between servant and master is another good analogy for the relationship between humanity and God. In particular as you point out it captures the element of choice and obedience which is a critical aspect of this relationship. One aspect which it does not capture quite as well, however, is our reliance on God in order for us to carry out His will, as He say is John 15:5, “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.” In this sense the analogy of the tool is apt…without the guiding hand of the Craftsman a tool accomplishes nothing.

Regardless of which of these two analogies you view the relationship through (and again, I believe that both reveal certain truths) the task to which we are called is not of our choosing, but of God’s…our choice is whether or not to be obedient to that call. If we choose to be obedient, God will grant us the strength to carry out the work to which He has called us. As is written in 1 Peter 4:11, “whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever”. If a master gives one servant a task which is humble and another a task which is visible and honored and both carry out their works with obedience and humility, does this bring more credit to the servant chosen to carry out the honorable task? To carry out God’s work is not to bring credit to ourselves, but to glorify God.

In the same way, Mary is a great example and model to all for her submission and obedience to the will of God. However, it is through God’s strength that she was able to carry out His will, and it is to Him that we should ascribe the glory and honor.

 

[LilyM]

You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

So it’s wrong to give yourself utterly to your spouse in marriage - it ‘takes away’ from God - as if our love or our devotion is a pie which has only a limited number of pieces to be shared?

Few if any marriages succeed without such whole-hearted devotion of husband and wife to each other, and even Jesus commends the fact that they become one flesh (and ideally one mind and heart as well). Clearly HE didn’t see any conflict between unity with spouse and devotion to God.

And then when you proceed to have children and devote your whole self to them as well, as a good parent must do, that too is wrong? Not just because it’s supposedly taking away from your devotion to your spouse but your devotion to God too?

You have a very poor and misguided notion of what love is and what human beings are capable of if you think it’s not possible to devote oneself completely at one and the same time to God the Father, AND the Holy Spirit, AND Jesus - AND Mary, spouse and children in addition. These forms of love and devotion don’t conflict with each other one iota.

 

[dolphinlove]

So it’s wrong to give yourself utterly to your spouse in marriage - it ‘takes away’ from God - as if our love or our devotion is a pie which has only a limited number of pieces to be shared?

Few if any marriages succeed without such whole-hearted devotion of husband and wife to each other, and even Jesus commends the fact that they become one flesh (and ideally one mind and heart as well). Clearly HE didn’t see any conflict between unity with spouse and devotion to God.

And then when you proceed to have children and devote your whole self to them as well, as a good parent must do, that too is wrong? Not just because it’s supposedly taking away from your devotion to your spouse but your devotion to God too?

You have a very poor and misguided notion of what love is and what human beings are capable of if you think it’s not possible to devote oneself completely at one and the same time to God the Father, AND the Holy Spirit, AND Jesus - AND Mary, spouse and children in addition. These forms of love and devotion don’t conflict with each other one iota.

Good post LilyM, well done
How are you anyway? Missing WYD?

 

[ralphinal]

You can’t serve two masters - if you “consecrate” yourself completely to JESUS - then it’s done…why bother going elsewhere and by what right does Mary have to “us” - our whole beings??? These prayers to Mary aren’t simply asking her to intercede and present petitions to Jesus…they’re elevating her to HIS position…giving her what is to be given to HIM alone.

If I enlist in the army, how many masters will I serve? God? The President? The Chair of the Joint Cheifs? How many generals? On down the line.

It is not serving more than one master if the ones between you and the top are all serving the same one. Mary, and all saints, point us to Christ. Just like followingthe command of a sargent does not mean I am disobeying the general.