I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[Peter_J]

You clearly do not understand English. GRAVEN means carved; sculptured. Whether you have BELLS or whatever is not the issue. Do you have sculptured image of someone in your cathedral? If you have, you have violated the commandment.

The next statement is the NEXT verse. The 2 statements have 2 distinct meanings.

1 - No graven image (verse 4)
2 - No bowing down. (verse 5)

You’re quite right that it says (1) and (2), not just (2).

But clearly (1) has to be taken with a grain of salt, because even before the time of Christ we see examples like Lord commanding the making of the Ark of the Covenant.

To be honest, I don’t feel any need to get into a big discussion about the matter since it was dealt with pretty thoroughly at the 7th ecumenical council in 787 AD. (Interestingly, a lot of Protestants accept the first 6 ecumenical councils, but express reservations about the 7th.)

 

[Usagi]

Have you read this work and if so do you agree with it?

I have not, and I’m not very comfortable with St. Alphonsus’ language, but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have no reason to believe that the Church’s approval of that book means that as a Catholic I am actually supposed to be worshipping Mary or elevating her to a deific level. There is far more clear and direct Catholic teaching saying just the opposite.

I have seen a quotation of the “omnipotent” passage before, and that’s what I took away from it – that St.Alphonsus is using such language because Mary’s will is always in line with God’s and therefore what she seeks is already what He was going to do, not that she has some kind of power over Him or is an independently omnipotent being. (It’s logically impossible to have two omnipotent beings, if you think about it.)

Usagi

 

[LilyM]

Usagi;4290914:

Thanks for the clarification. It still stands though that the Catholic church endorses this work and finds it profitable for catholics to read and practice. Correct?

Incorrect. The church tolerates and permits the contents of the book, and tolerates and permits the reading of it by Catholics, and believes that SOME may find it profitable, not necessarily the generality of Catholics. Similarly to church ‘approval’ of apparitions, which means it is OK to belive them, far from necessary and probably not even profitable for all except inasfar as the messages - prayer, penance and so on - are what the church always and generally calls us to anyway.

It’s a fairly negative form of toleration - merely along the lines of ‘there’s nothing wrong in this book/apparition’. Far from a ringing endorsement.

Certainly no endorsement of the contents, as noted above, no real indication that it considers the work generally profitable.

If I understand correctly, ‘Nihil obstat’ literally means ‘nothing hinders’ its publication, ‘Imprimatur’ literally means ‘let it (permit it) be printed’. Again, the message is one of toleration and not endorsement.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You clearly do not understand English. GRAVEN means carved; sculptured. Whether you have BELLS or whatever is not the issue. Do you have sculptured image of someone in your cathedral? If you have, you have violated the commandment.

The next statement is the NEXT verse. The 2 statements have 2 distinct meanings.

1 - No graven image (verse 4)
2 - No bowing down. (verse 5)

Actually I understand English quite well - always got A’s when I was in school.

I will repeat the verse you cited, and ask that you take special note of the words I’ve underlined and made slightly larger, immediately following “graven image”:

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

The text is clear: No graven images, NOR any likenesses of any thing in heaven, earth or in the water are to be made in order to be the object of worship. If you stop with what we read in verse 4 and don’t allow God to complete His commandment, then only the Amish are going to Heaven.

Furthermore, the chapter and verse divisions in your Bible were put there by a Catholic, several thousand years after those words were written down initially. God didn’t inspire the writers of Scripture to add verse numbers and chapter divisions in their writings.

It is NOT…do not bow down to (any) graven images. If it was, it would have been phrased thus.

It is phrased thus, you are making eleven commandments where there are ten.

And God would be saying if others built the graven images, don’t bow down to them. BUT…God is saying…DO NOT BUILD THESE GRAVEN IMAGES…YOURSELF!..and then NOT to bow down to them.

If your mother tells you ‘pixie, do not play outside with those filthy kids. You must not be their friend’.

DO YOU then tell your mother…so I cannot be their friend but I can play with them…Riiiight???..WRONG! You are not even to play with them.

Again, it shows us there is tremendous difficulty in holding onto the truth.

.

I daresay I’m not the one with difficulty. I searched diligently, prayerfully, and earnestly - I found the Truth in Jesus Christ, and in the Church of which He is the Head.

 

[justasking4]

justasking4;4290987:

Incorrect. The church tolerates and permits the contents of the book, and tolerates and permits the reading of it by Catholics, and believes that SOME may find it profitable, not necessarily the generality of Catholics. Similarly to church ‘approval’ of apparitions, which means it is OK to belive them, far from necessary and probably not even profitable for all except inasfar as the messages - prayer, penance and so on - are what the church always and generally calls us to anyway.

It’s a fairly negative form of toleration - merely along the lines of ‘there’s nothing wrong in this book/apparition’. Far from a ringing endorsement.

Certainly no endorsement of the contents, as noted above, no real indication that it considers the work generally profitable.

If I understand correctly, ‘Nihil obstat’ literally means ‘nothing hinders’ its publication, ‘Imprimatur’ literally means ‘let it (permit it) be printed’. Again, the message is one of toleration and not endorsement.

Have you read the Glories of Mary and if so what did you think? Are you comfortable with it?

 

[guanophore]

You are simply amazing… :bowdown2: :bowdown2: Again you don’t disappoint. What is the Living Word of God today? Couple of examples of it would greatly increase my understanding…

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John. 1:1.

We encounter the living Word of God daily in the sacraments, where grace meets with faith.

“In HIm we live, and move, and have our being”. The HS is alive and well in the Church that was founded by Christ.

What is the difference between honour, veneration and worship?

The highest form of worship is the Holy sacrifice of the Mass. If you are ever ready to attend Divine Liturgy, you will find that it is Christ centered, not Mary centered. I think she is mentioned a couple times, but it is clear that she is not being worshipped.

I have been over the honoring and veneration before with persons using this login. Try searching honor or veneration and justasking4. I wish you guys would keep track of each other!

I am not sure you are capable of understanding this, because it seems that you cannot even grasp the basic biblical implications of honor.

 

[LilyM]

Have you read the Glories of Mary and if so what did you think? Are you comfortable with it?

Whether or not I have done so is totally irrelevant. The point is whether Glories of Mary is authoritative Catholic teaching, and is influential on a large number of Catholics, or not.

I don’t have to have read Luther’s 95 theses to know that they are NOT authoritative Catholic teaching and are NOT influential on a large number of Catholics. Same with Glories of Mary.

 

[guanophore]

If Mary’s faith never failed then what am i to think of Luke 2:49-50?

If God the Father gave you His only begotten Son to raise and you lost track of Him, wouldn’t you get anxious?

 

[guanophore]

Here is what the introduction of this work says…

As you see this work is quite influencial even though you may never have heard of it before. Would you consider this work to be part of the “fullness of the Truth” found only the Catholic church?

No, ja4, a commercial announcement is not the same as historical fact. Do you believe all those political announcements that are running on TV right now also?

The introducation to the book is not necessarily historical fact.

No, people’s private devotions reflect the fullness of the faith, but cannot contribute to it. The fullness of the faith was delivered to the Apostles, and public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. The Fullness of the Faith was complete ane entire, given once and for all to the saints.

If what you saying is true about the introduction to this work is that they are lying.

No, ja4. People that have a different opinion about things than you are not “lying”. They just see things from an alternate perspective. It is like the people giving those political TV ads. I am sure they hire people who believe what they are promoting.

If the book did make a stir, then it was in a very small region in Europe. I think you have no understanding how vast the Catholic Church really is.

Secondly, just look at some of the details of his work and compare them with details of the Marian doctrines and the stuff written about her. Its quite apparent.

What is quite apparent?

“stuff written about her” ???

Honestly, ja4, I don’t know why you have such an obsession with these things. Why does it bother you so much if people write poems and hymns to someone they love? What prevents you from just giving people persmission to express their feelings in their own way? How does this injure your faith?

 

[RobGentner]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John. 1:1.

We encounter the living Word of God daily in the sacraments, where grace meets with faith.
**AMEN!!
**
“In HIm we live, and move, and have our being”. The HS is alive and well in the Church that was founded by Christ.

**We use the HS gifts every day in many ways also! **

The highest form of worship is the Holy sacrifice of the Mass.
AMEN!!! If you are ever ready to attend Divine Liturgy, you will find that it is Christ centered, not Mary centered. I think she is mentioned a couple times, but it is clear that she is not being worshipped.
To us, but they don’t think ~ eerrr, normal?

I have been over the honoring and veneration before with persons using this login. Try searching honor or veneration and justasking4. I wish you guys would keep track of each other!

** guan, You are not familiar with the ask, and ask, and ask again concept of asking questions? It is called interrgation. The police use it when they know someone is lying! In this case I think they expect the “Truth” to change :whacky: **
I am not sure you are capable of understanding this, because it seems that you cannot even grasp the basic biblical implications of honor.
** guan, What makes you say that? We are suppose to be Christians. Just because people appear dumb doen’t make them dumb. Please have a little Christian Charity. Give justasking4 the benefit of the doubt!
Maybe he is just drunk!:extrahappy: **

 

[LilyM]

If God the Father gave you His only begotten Son to raise and you lost track of Him, wouldn’t you get anxious?

Besides which, if her faith failed why did she continue to look for Him for three days? Wouldn’t the real indication of failure of faith be if she had given up the search?

Furthermore, Luke 2:49-50 indicates that Mary and Joseph didn’t UNDERSTAND, which indicates nothing about whether they believed or not. You certainly believe in the Trinity - do you dare to assert that you properly understand it?

 

[guanophore]

.
This work goes far beyond this. Its actually endorsed by officals in the church. For example at the beginning of this work we see this:

Nihil obstat: Rev. Arthur J. Scanlan, S.T.D.
Censor Librorum

Imprimatur: + His Eminence
Patritius Cardinalis Hayes
Archiepiscopus Neo-Eboracensis
Neo-Eboraci
Die 16 Aprilis, 1931

This is an endorsement of a high church offical.

The mere fact this work is endorsed by the church is enough to matter. By endorsing this work the church concurs with what is written here. If it did not endorse this work and rejected it then there would be nothing to discuss.

No, ja4. You clearly do not understand the meaning of the endorsements. These do not make it Church teaching, or “endorsed” whatever you mean by that. Neither does it mean that it concurs with Church teaching.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
.
This work goes far beyond this. Its actually endorsed by officals in the church. For example at the beginning of this work we see this:

Nihil obstat: Rev. Arthur J. Scanlan, S.T.D.
Censor Librorum

Imprimatur: + His Eminence
Patritius Cardinalis Hayes
Archiepiscopus Neo-Eboracensis
Neo-Eboraci
Die 16 Aprilis, 1931

This is an endorsement of a high church offical.

The mere fact this work is endorsed by the church is enough to matter. By endorsing this work the church concurs with what is written here. If it did not endorse this work and rejected it then there would be nothing to discuss.

guanophore
No, ja4. You clearly do not understand the meaning of the endorsements. These do not make it Church teaching, or “endorsed” whatever you mean by that. Neither does it mean that it concurs with Church teaching.

Then what does it mean? Have you ever come across any offical rebuke by the Catholic church on this?

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
If Mary’s faith never failed then what am i to think of Luke 2:49-50?

guanophore
If God the Father gave you His only begotten Son to raise and you lost track of Him, wouldn’t you get anxious?

Doesn’t her reaction here indicate a lack of faith in God if she was anxious?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4293034]
Originally Posted by justasking4
If what you saying is true about the introduction to this work is that they are lying.
guanophore;
No, ja4. People that have a different opinion about things than you are not “lying”. They just see things from an alternate perspective.

Huh? How can you say this? When i have a different opinion than you and others may have you have at times accused me lying. The same would apply here would it not?

It is like the people giving those political TV ads. I am sure they hire people who believe what they are promoting.

If the book did make a stir, then it was in a very small region in Europe. I think you have no understanding how vast the Catholic Church really is.

I know it has over 1 billion members and is spread through out the world. I was just reading that Vatican bank in which it was quote to having $4 billion in deposits and annual income of $40 million.

 

[LilyM]

Doesn’t her reaction here indicate a lack of faith in God if she was anxious?

In case you didn’t see this …

If her faith failed why did she continue to look for Him for three days? The real indication of failure of faith would be if she had given up the search.

Furthermore, Luke 2:49-50 indicates that Mary and Joseph didn’t UNDERSTAND, which is a very different thing to saying they had no faith. You certainly believe in the Trinity - do you dare to assert that you properly understand the triune nature of God that you believe in?

And Jesus was anxious to the point of sweating blood at Gethsemane, does that mean He lacked faith in the Father?

 

[justasking4]

In case you didn’t see this …

And Jesus was anxious to the point of sweating blood at Gethsemane, does that mean He lacked faith in the Father?

No. The Scriptures never speak of any lack of faith or uderstanding of the Father’s will on His part.

 

[LilyM]

Huh? How can you say this? When i have a different opinion than you and others may have you have at times accused me lying. The same would apply here would it not?

You lie when you repeat things that have many times over been explained to you not to be true - such as that an imprimatur on a book makes it official Catholic teaching. If I told you, being someone who can authoritatively teach on such things, that the sky is blue, explained to you why, and you persisted in saying that it was green, you’d be knowingly saying something contrary to the truth, therefore lying.

I know it has over 1 billion members and is spread through out the world.

No, I don’t think you truly know or appreciate the significance of the numbers here. If we allowed more generously than the quoted figures, and presumed that a million Catholics TODAY had been influenced by Glories of Mary, as opposed to a million people in the 250 years since it was written, that would still make only one-in-one-thousand of today’s Catholics. Being as it’s been 250 years, we must allow a substantially smaller percentage, no?

Now in what parallel universe does that mean it’s highly influential or commonly accepted teaching? Answer: in the parallel universe of someone who loves the book - like the person who wrote the blurb.

Just like the fact that a child says its first word makes it a clever child in the parallel universe of its parents who love it to distraction. In neither case is the assertion a lie, just a highly colourable opinion.

 

[Truthfaithlove]

Peter J – We don’t take God’s word with a pinch of salt. That would be evil. Because no man has the ability to judge God’s word. We take it as IT IS.

And no, that ‘us’ is not collectively catholic and not a call for you to make it collective either.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

What does John 6:45 tell us? It tells us EVERYONE. ALL…ANYONE who comes to Jesus DIRECTLY and listens to the Father will be taught. Again, we see there’s absolutely no need for any 3rd parties like Mary or the Pope.

Pixie Dust – Don’t tell me what the catholics have done in the past, we’re talking about scripture NOW. Those 2 verses speak for themselves. And like I already showed you in that example, only disobedient kids will ‘take a pinch of salt’ from what their parents say and perform selective compliance.

If your mother tells you ‘pixie, do not play outside with those filthy kids. You must not be their friend’.

DO YOU then tell your mother…so I cannot be their friend but I can play with them…Riiiight???..Those 2 statements should be taken together Riiight???..WRONG!

The instruction is VERY CLEAR. You are not even to play with them. And what kind of kid will say ‘NO, MY MOM SAYS I CAN PLAY WITH THEM BECAUSE AS LONG AS I AM NOT THEIR FRIEND, IT IS OKAY’ - EVIL KID ]

*** Let no man be deceived. God is not mocked. For whatever a man sows, that shall he reap.**
.

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;4293229]You lie when you repeat things that have many times over been explained to you not to be true - such as that an imprimatur on a book makes it official Catholic teaching.

Where specifically did i say this? Can you paste it here for me to read?

If I told you, being someone who can authoritatively teach on such things, that the sky is blue, explained to you why, and you persisted in saying that it was green, you’d be knowingly saying something contrary to the truth, therefore lying.

No, I don’t think you truly know or appreciate the significance of the numbers here. If we allowed more generously than the quoted figures, and presumed that a million Catholics TODAY had been influenced by Glories of Mary, as opposed to a million people in the 250 years since it was written, that would still make only one-in-one-thousand of today’s Catholics. Being as it’s been 250 years, we must allow a substantially smaller percentage, no?

Now in what parallel universe does that mean it’s highly influential or commonly accepted teaching? Answer: in the parallel universe of someone who loves the book - like the person who wrote the blurb.

Just like the fact that a child says its first word makes it a clever child in the parallel universe of its parents who love it to distraction. In neither case is the assertion a lie, just a highly colourable opinion.