I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

[LilyM]

Rob - think for a minute - Jesus himself said…"repent and believe the gospel"…was He telling them to believe in an “unfinished gospel”??? The “miles” of other books and oral tradition you have only prove the amount of heresies that have crept in.

Do I really need to point out that Jesus DIDN’T write the New Testament and THEN tell His followers to believe in His Gospel. The New Testament wasn’t begun to be written until approximately 20 years or more after He said those words, and certainly wasn’t complete until a good 60 years or so after His death.

His Gospel, for those who insist on confining that Gospel to the written word, was very much unfinished for many decades, so it is in fact sola scripturists who are the ones who, if one takes their logic to its right conclusion, believe that Jesus told us to follow an incomplete Gospel - it not having all been written down by the time He died.

For that matter He said and did much more AFTER saying those words, no? Surely your logic demands that His gospel be complete at the time he said them? If it was completed five minutes or five days later, your argument is equally as invalid as if it was 2,000 years.

But we who know the truth know that He passed on an ORAL Gospel, not a written one - an ORAL Gospel that contains all our current Traditions (including many that you believe in, such as the canon of written scripture itself, and truths about Jesus being one person with two natures, human and divine) and Magisterial teachings.

Why? Because Jesus is STILL AMONG US! (‘behold, I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS, until the end of the world’) and yet, being still among us, you choose to believe that He has remained silent and dumb for nigh on 2,000 years?

It’s the epitome of illogic. He Himself said HE would speak even after His ascension - through His Apostles (‘who hears you hears Me’). And if through them, then of course through those successors who they, who had the power to bind heaven and earth, chose to succeed to the Apostolic office, such as Matthias. And, equally importantly, no less in our time - He is no less present now and no more silent either!

 

[Peter_J]

It would be wonderful if we could discuss religion without bashing one another.
I came here to learn about the Catholic faith. I wouldn’t look down my nose at anyone for what they believe.

A “bash-free” CAF is certainly nice to imagine, but I don’t think it’s ever going to be a reality.

 

[guanophore]

**

That is wrong!. :tsktsk: We must defend our faith agenst demonic attacks! Remember ~ “But in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.” - 1 Peter 3:15**

You stopped a little soon there, Rob! Go on to the next part of the verse:

1 Peter 3:15-17
** yet do it with gentleness and reverence**; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

As you know I am shy and have a particular personality that makes it so hard for me to speak out and explain how sad I am about our brethern being under the control of the devil and corrupting our holy scripture. It makes me so sad!
I want to just hold and comfort the poor lost heretics that come here seeking forgiveness for their ignorance of our religion.

If this is true, you are going about it in a most abrasive manner. No one will let you “hold and comfort” them when they are busy being insulted by your approach. It is inappropriate to call our separated brethren “heretics” and is not productive to the mission of CAF. Nor, if you really believe what you have written here, is it productive to your own mission.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

It is much better to assume that our separated brethren are so out of ignorance, and not willful departure. The vast majority have embraced heretical beliefs because they don’t know any better. To qualify as a “heretic” one must have known the truth, then willfully abandoned it. This is certainly the case with the Reformers themselves. You will learn (if you are able to follow the forum rules and stay here) that most of these persons don’t even know that their beliefs originated with heretics. The believe their beliefs are “scriptural”. Most of them have also been badly misinformed about what the Catholic Church teaches. You will have a hard time correcting the ignorance if you sling insults at them.

That is why I make sure I treat them just like Jesus would. Why if they were in a temple changing money Jesus would be the first to run over to talk to them and explain His true feelings towards them and their little games!:dancing:

You are mistaken in this, Rob. Jesus reacted that way toward those to whom the fullness of truth had been revealed. On the contrary, most protestants are like the Samaritans, and have been separated from the Aposotlic faith for 500+ years, but don’t even know it.

So be nice to them and take the time necessary, remember we have to try and save their condemned souls. Think of what Jesus said about them: “You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:44

This is grossly inappropriate and offensive, Rob. Jesus was talking to persons to whom the fullness of revelation belonged. Our separated brethren are not in this category. Furthermore, it is nor right for us to judge whether the soul of another is condemned to hell. This is God’s job, and taking it upon yourself is the epitome of arrogance.

Remember be nice! They deserve all our love !

You might want to consider reading your own words!

God Bless

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello To All!

As I’ve said before, it is my opinion that you cannot use the argument to prove the argument. Why quote the Bible and the Catechism if the person you are quoting to believes it says something totally different?

That’s nonsense.

Only non-catholics raise the Virgin Mary up to “worship status”. Catholics do not. Period.

You can venerate (love, desire) Mary. You can adore (love intensely or deeply) Mary. You can praise (approve, commendate, admire) Mary.

You cannot worship Mary as if she were God the Father. You cannot choose to pray to her instead of The Father, The Son, or the Holy Spirit. In other words, you would have to in your heart and in your mind worship only Mary and deny God to be commiting idolitry, which is really the quandry here.

There are many definitions of these words that will lead you back to worship if you so desire. Heck by non-catholic standards if you go on and on about your Fettucini Alfredo too much, you’re worshipping it. Come on Folks.

Ask any apologist if you want to. Quote any verse in the Bible. Quote any Canon in the Catechism. It’s not rocket science. It’s non-catholics who insist Mary is something she’s not to us. If we as catholics don’t believe she’s The Alpha and The Omega, then there is no worship going on. Period. End of argument. An element in idolitry is that you have to first deny God is the One True God. We do not in any way deny God.

And to Rob:

Rob, as a person on here who constantly touts his religion and is very quick to put labels on other christians, you should at least be able to admit when you’re wrong.

To All Christians:

Please believe me when I say that most catholics do not go around calling non-catholics heretics. A lot of us are converts ourselves and have family members and friends who are Protestants.

We should all remember to not judge one another. Put it out there and be done with it. If you don’t agree with me even about the very existance of God, I will not judge you. Only God knows whose going to be seated with Him. Some holier-than-thou catholics may just find themselves listening to the prayers of non-catholics while in Purgatory.

Peace Be With You.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4313817]
Originally Posted by justasking4
By singing hymns of praise to Mary and using such titles of praise to her name. The following is from post # 699. Its only a partial list:

“Mediatrix
Mediatrix and Conciliatrix
Mediatrix of All Grace
Mediatrix of Salvation
Mediatrix of the Mediator
Minister of Life
Mirror of Justice
More Beautiful Than Beauty
More Glorious Than Paradise
More Gracious Than Grace
More Holy Than the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the Entire Angelic Hosts
Morning Star
Most Venerable
Mother Most Admirable
Mother Most Amiable
Mother Most Pure”

These are the kinds of things that should be said only of God and never of a created being.

guanophore
If you feel so strongly about that, it would be a good idea not to use this hymn or a prayer like it.

Do you think this is a good idea for anyone to sing and pray about if they consider themselves a follower of Christ?
Should Christians think of Mary as the “Seat of Wisdom”?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Good point. However only God is worthy of these kinds of titles and never of a created being.

Not necessary. Many of these titles are only applicable to God and not man.

Those titles are making specific statements about Mary that are never said of her in Scripture. Secondly, these kinds of titles should only be spoken of God.

guanophore
This is your judgement, and personal opinion, and you are certainly welcome to it. What is it inside of you that prevents you from tolerating others who think/believe differently?

These kinds of things should trouble you also. Even with your knowledge of Scripture i would think even you would have some serious concerns about what this hymn is claiming about Mary. I can only guess you desire the approval of men than the truth.

Why do you feel such a strong need to make others over into the image of what you feel and believe is right for yourself?

If the truth mattered to you you also would be helping your fellow Catholic to see the light about these things.

You come to a Catholic board and chastize Catholics because they do not believe as you do.

I’m here to discuss and to get others to think…

 

[happilycatholic]

Hi JustAsking:

First of all, where did these “titles” come from? Do we know?

I’m curious, what do you think Seat of Wisdom means?

 

[Cinette]

In every debate there is always some conclusion. Have we reached any conclusion on this thread after more than 800 postings?

Some posters just never go beyond a certain point. Not only do they repeat the same questions over and over and over again (I think I am going to write a song over and over and over again and again and again) but they change their style - much like the characters in soap operas who change their characters from time to time (I stopped watching soapies many years ago when I noticed how personalities changed their characters which of course doesn’t happen in real life). But the personalities of certain posters do. I wonder why? Curious :ehh: :doh2:

 

[happilycatholic]

I believe you just came to the best conclusion possible!

 

[justasking4]

Hi JustAsking:

First of all, where did these “titles” come from? Do we know?

I’m curious, what do you think Seat of Wisdom means?

Good questions and i’m not sure. However i do know many of these titles would apply only to God and not men. Also many of these titles have no basis in fact for Mary. The NT is all we know of her and those that knew her best never apply most of these titles to her. Its the speculations of men.

 

[happilycatholic]

Whoa, I’m not here to argue, debate or convert anyone. You believe what you believe and I’m okay with that.

I just thought I’d try to understand.

What bothers you about calling the Virgin Mary the Seat of Wisdom?

 

[justasking4]

Whoa, I’m not here to argue, debate or convert anyone. You believe what you believe and I’m okay with that.

I just thought I’d try to understand.

What bothers you about calling the Virgin Mary the Seat of Wisdom?

The Scriptures never call her by such a title nor infer it. This is one of the problems with a church that goes beyond the Scriptrues and essentially uses speculations to exalt her. Its misleading.

 

[Cinette]

The Scriptures never call her by such a title nor infer it. This is one of the problems with a church that goes beyond the Scriptrues and essentially uses speculations to exalt her. Its misleading.

JustAsking4 - does this mean there are 4 people comprising the poster/s on this thread?

 

[happilycatholic]

Well for starters, as a catholic I have no problem believing that the Virgin Mary is the Seat of Wisdom because of the following way it is used in the reference:

(1) MARY, you are the Seat of Wisdom because the Son of God, the eternal Wisdom, assumed flesh from you, dwelt in your virginal womb, and as an Infant rested in your arms. As the Son of God, Jesus is called Wisdom.

If you agree that Jesus is “Wisdom” as is stated here (and by yourself in stating that only God deserves these titles) then you must concur that the Virgin Mary is rightly referred to as the Seat of Wisdom. Or maybe you don’t glean intellectually that “Seat of Wisdom” is a metaphor for the Mother of Christ.

You can’t have it both ways.

But I see that you are vaguely referring to the sola scriptura theory. Well, I hate to break it to you but it does state that Mary is the Mother of Christ.

With all that aside, you do realize you cannot follow the sola scriptura theory and implement that by individual interpretation. It’s totally contradictory.

In other words you can’t say "I believe only in what the Bible says " and then tell yourself what the Bible says. You would then be following self prescribed beliefs. Unless of course you also complement yourself with infallibility.

In that case I applaud your bravery in putting your salvation into your own hands.

 

[justasking4]

JustAsking4 - does this mean there are 4 people comprising the poster/s on this thread?

i thought you were not talking to me anymore…:manvspc:

 

[Cinette]

i thought you were not talking to me anymore…:manvspc:

Which “me” is this? Which of the personalities? I know that I got exasperated with one of you!

 

[johnnydigit]

Or perhaps it’s just that they know a false religion when they see it!

the devil is much smarter than us. what the devil cannot trump us on is our faith. they have tossed away their faith in order to go with their eyes, their minds, and what their feelings say, all of which the devil has a greater power over us. if they realized this, they would retain their faith, the faith which established His Church 2000 years ago. they refuse to have faith in this regard.

 

[CWBetts]

We need to make it clear to Protestants that we should not be forced to defend Catholic doctrine with Protestant theology. Most notably, being forced to bend our practices according to the false dactrine of Sola Scriptura also knawn as “Scripture Alone.” Scripture is not the only scource of revelation, not because Scripture says there are other sources, but because other sources are not eliminated. In fact, Sola Scriptura cannot be found in the Scriptures making it self-refuting. So as Catholics, we should not be restricted from using Holy Tradition as defense of our practices.

 

[justasking4]

We need to make it clear to Protestants that we should not be forced to defend Catholic doctrine with Protestant theology. Most notably, being forced to bend our practices according to the false dactrine of Sola Scriptura also knawn as “Scripture Alone.” Scripture is not the only scource of revelation, not because Scripture says there are other sources, but because other sources are not eliminated. In fact, Sola Scriptura cannot be found in the Scriptures making it self-refuting. So as Catholics, we should not be restricted from using Holy Tradition as defense of our practices.

I agree. Please bring Holy-Sacred Tradition to the discussion. I’m still trying to understand exactly what it is.

 

[happilycatholic]

I agree. Please bring Holy-Sacred Tradition to the discussion. I’m still trying to understand exactly what it is.

Respectfully justasking, I’m still trying to understand exactly what problem you have with referring to Mary as the Seat of Wisdom.

Would you kindly answer.

Thanks.

 

[justasking4]

Respectfully justasking, I’m still trying to understand exactly what problem you have with referring to Mary as the Seat of Wisdom.

Would you kindly answer.

Thanks.

I answered in posts 805 and 807.