I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!

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JustAsking:

I believe that Mary is in fact referred to as the mother of Jesus in every Bible you can get your hands on.

So what is the actual reason you have an aversion to referring to Mary as the Seat of Wisdom?

The fact is none of those titles are offensive to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit so why are they offensive to you?

I’m not challenging you. I’m asking a simple question.
 
JustAsking:

I believe that Mary is in fact referred to as the mother of Jesus in every Bible you can get your hands on.

So what is the actual reason you have an aversion to referring to Mary as the Seat of Wisdom?

The fact is none of those titles are offensive to The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit so why are they offensive to you?

I’m not challenging you. I’m asking a simple question.
i derive my theology from the Scriptures and its not wise to go beyond the Scriptures. When we do we are relying on the speculations of men. These titles are very misleading from what we know of her in the Scriptures. The Catholic church has allowed these titles and statements about Mary to go unchecked until you have not the biblical Mary but a Mary that in no way corresponds to the true Mary.
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Do any of these titles trouble you?
 
i derive my theology from the Scriptures and its not wise to go beyond the Scriptures.Well, you do have an opinion. It is wrong, but we knew that! It is wise not to depend on the scriptures unless you also depend on the writers to explain them to you. It is not wise to do otherwise actually. When we do we are relying on the speculations of men. **When we don’t we are depend on nhow smart we are and we all lnow that answewr in some cases! Better not to speculate go to the RCC and find out the truth! **These titles are very misleading from what we know of her in the Scriptures. **Like the scriotures were about her! He was just the woman that obeyed God’s request and singlehandly made it possible for all of us to be saved! **The Catholic church has allowed these titles and statements about Mary to go unchecked until you have not the biblical Mary but a Mary that in no way corresponds to the true Mary. **The RCC let them go unchecked because it realizes that she is the most important creature God ever made. Because we can actually form our lives to immulate. NEWS FLASH: Being nice to the Mother of God can’t hurt you. It is not required for salvation. It isn’t praticed by all Catholics. But because we Love Jesus, we must love His mother, just as He did! Now FA4 Go give your Mother a kiss! :rolleyes: . **
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Do any of these titles trouble you?
**Until I posted some of the names that Mary has been called you didn’t even realize how many there were! They don’t bother us, we love her, She helps us be saved. Why do they bother a heretic?🤷
**
 
I answered in posts 805 and 807.
**
Hi Justasking4The100thTime, :tiphat:

Getting a little lazy are you?
Remeber the rules, you violated No. 5!
PS: You are in the lead only Leeann and Mailman even have a chance of catching up! I am so proud of you! Keep up the good work! Be careful, lf you don’t want to be eliminated. Follow the rules:
  1. Be sure the question you ask is really stupid and insulting to Catholics. (Remember to make sure that it has been answered at least one dozen times or you must ask another question in the same post!. You always get extra points for attacking Jesus’ Mother) 😛
  2. When the question, Deny that the poster answered the question being asked! ( If you repeat the question again you get double points! If the poster respondes to the same question you get the “Bonus” points!)
  3. Never agree with anything that agrees with the Catholic faith. (Extra points for each of the 5 “sola” that you can interject into your response 👍
  4. Pretend not to understand. Have them repeat their answer over and over again! :confused: (If they get angry toy advance to the next level of competetion):banghead:
  5. You can not refer back to another thread you already posted because they may notice that you are asking the same questions, over and over again. :tsktsk: ( You will lose 5 points for each time you do that)
  6. Unpon winning the game the Devil will personally greet you upo arrival. He will crown you as a Good and faithful Servant! You will then receive your eternal “reward” Hint: Use the prize money to buy fire proof underwear! :extrahappy:
God Bless

**
 
I agree. Please bring Holy-Sacred Tradition to the discussion. I’m still trying to understand exactly what it is. 🤷
** Hi T1T! :tiphat: Sure JA4, all you had to do was ask! Oh do your friends call you JA4 or F1T or JA4T1T?

I rather call you “Just Asking 4” (JA4); rather that "The100thTime " (T1T); or JA4T1T that seems too formal. Let me know!

Ok, per your request here is your first lesson in Holy-Sacred Tradition :bowdown2: :

The Holy Sacred Tradition Of Calling The Blessed Mother, The
Seat of Wisdom

Oh Blessed Seat of Wisdom Do not let me be deceived by the false wisdom of the world which teaches me to consider this world as the final aim of man. To consider you to only be a woman. Help me always to act according to true Christian wisdom: to mortify all my inordinate inclinations, and never attach my heart to the vain, perishable goods of the world, to guard against sin, to practice virtue and good works, and to love God above all things and with my whole heart. I believe you can help me because:
  1. MARY, you are the Seat of Wisdom because the Son of God, the eternal Wisdom, assumed flesh from you, dwelt in your virginal womb, and as an Infant rested in your arms. As the Son of God, Jesus is called Wisdom. The Father thinks of Himself from eternity. This thought of the Father is a distinct person—the Word, the Wisdom of God.
But the Son of God is also called Wisdom because in the work of redemption divine wisdom shows itself in the highest degree. After becoming Man, Jesus taught us wisdom. He taught us that temporal goods are vain and possess true value only in so far as they are means for obtaining our final destiny. He has reminded us to be most earnest about saving our souls.

Seat of Wisdom, you bore in your womb Him who is the personal and eternal Wisdom of God, and whose words and teaching give evidence of wisdom in the highest degree. Obtain for me the grace to embrace wisdom with my whole soul as I see it in the doctrine of your divine Son.

(2) MARY, divine wisdom showed itself in you in a particular manner. Evil and ruin were brought upon the human race through a woman, Eve, our first mother. God’s wisdom therefore ordained that salvation and grace should be brought to the whole human family through a woman. You are that woman, our second, better Mother. Eve permitted herself to be deceived by a spirit of bell, so that she became disobedient and ate of the forbidden fruit. God’s wisdom ordained that you should be obedient to an angel of heaven who announced to you the will of God, and caused you to say, “Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.” Eve’s sin came from unbelief, for she no longer believed what God had told her and Adam; you placed all your faith in the words of the angel Gabriel and thus repaired the sin of Eve. Thus the wisdom of God knew how to create in you a woman who was like our first mother in all things, but who used the privileges and graces received, not as did Eve, for our harm, but for our eternal salvation.

The wisdom of God also showed itself in your marriage, that the birth of the Son of God might not become known before the time, that your reputation might remain free from reproach, and that the divine Child might have in Joseph a foster-father and a protector.

In His divine wisdom God fulfilled His prophecies through you. Though very poor, you were a descendant of the royal house of David; you lived at the very time when the sceptre had passed from the descendants of David into the bands of strangers; your home was at Nazareth, but in obedience to a decree of Caesar you went to Bethlehem and there brought forth your divine Child. After your return from Egypt, you went to Nazareth where Jesus lived with you up to His thirtieth year. For that reason He was called a Nazarene.

Divine Wisdom made you share in the poverty, the humiliation, and the persecution of Jesus. God kindled in you the fire of divine love, reared you in the school of suffering, bestowed upon you a heart full of compassion and mercy toward men—a heart which knew no greater delight than to comfort the afflicted, to save sinners, and to do good to all. He afforded you opportunities to acquire countless merits, and gave you the grace to attain the highest degree of holiness. Thus you became the Queen of heaven. “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!” (Rom. 11,33)

(3) MARY, you teach us true wisdom. The highest of all wisdom is to know how to live a good life. You possessed this wisdom more than anyone else, for you loved God above all things and sought His holy will in everything. You faithfully used every grace and means of salvation, in order to unite yourself more intimately with God and to become daily more like Him. Help me to imitate you that I may obtain that heavenly wisdom which makes me good and happy here and blessed forever in heaven. Let me be guided by divine Wisdom as willingly as you were. Everything tends to make me a devoted Christian and to lead me to eternal joy. Never let my wisdom oppose the wisdom of God. Whatever God wishes is always good.

PRAYER OF THE SEAT OF WISDOM
Confirm in our minds, we beg of You, O Lord, the mysteries of the true faith that we who believe Him who was conceived of a Virgin to be true God and Man, may deserve to arrive at eternal joy, by the power of His saving resurrection. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

Mass for the Blessed Virgin as The Seat of Wisdom are celebrated on Saturdays! JA4 come to a Catholic church near you ands see how we honor Jesus’ Mother. How pleased He and His father mist be with the real believers!👍 **

God Bless!
 
Do you think this is a good idea for anyone to sing and pray about if they consider themselves a follower of Christ?
No. Clearly you have indicated that your understanding of this practice is deficient, and it would not benefit you spiritually because your conscience is weak
Should Christians think of Mary as the “Seat of Wisdom”?
I don’t believe I am in a position to tell other Christians what they “should” think. I think of her this way because Jesus is the embodiment of wisdom to me. In Him, all the fullness of God dwells bodily. He grew upon the seat of her pelvis within her womb for 9 months, and then at her breast, then in her lap. She was the place where he sat when He came into the world. To me, wisdom chose to use her as His seat.
These kinds of things should trouble you also. Even with your knowledge of Scripture i would think even you would have some serious concerns about what this hymn is claiming about Mary. I can only guess you desire the approval of men than the truth.
I don’t think that you are in a positionto tell other Christians what they “should” think, either. I will also remind you that it is against the forum rules to attempt to pull Catholics away from their faith, and to disrespect the Catholic faith.

You may think you are insulting me by suggesting that I desire the approval of men more than the truth. Let me say, in response to this, that it is only here, among persons like yourself, that I find myself disapproved for my devotion to the mother of the Lord. If I wanted your approval more than the truth, why would I just not publicly abandon anything related to Mary? Why would I just not play the part, and agree with you? In that way, I am sure I would get the “approval of men”. It sure would be a lot easier!

Now, the insults that have falled upon the Mother of My Lord have also fallen upon me!
If the truth mattered to you you also would be helping your fellow Catholic to see the light about these things.
As I have told you many times, I do not feel, as you do, that I have some sort of God given mission to pull up the weeds planted in God’s field. I have been taught that this is not my job, but one that has been given to the angels at the end of time. Now, you are not only trying to get me to abandon the Apostolic faith, but also to engage in behavior specifically forbidden in the scriptures, by which you claim to know the truth.
I’m here to discuss and to get others to think…👍
It sure seems as though there is another agenda at work in your comments here!
 
The Scriptures never call her by such a title nor infer it. This is one of the problems with a church that goes beyond the Scriptrues and essentially uses speculations to exalt her. Its misleading.
Well, we read the scriptures differently, don’t we? Have you ever read about the gifts of the HS in the book of Isaiah? Did you know that the Spirit of Wisdom is one of the titles given there for who would rest upon Christ?

Did you ever wonder what happened when the HS “overshadowed” Mary?
 
**
It isn’t easy to “change” religions. Family members, co-workers even life long friends may be lost. Many fallen away catholics confess that they did it for “family peace” How sad to condemn yourself to eternal damnation to have temporal peace! SIGH,** Foolish children! :imsorry:
Pray on your desire to save your eternal soul or remain separate from God’s full graces.
Honestly, you just pointed out some reasons I have had the opposite affect. I’ll point them out:

I do not think only Catholics are the ones going to heaven, and I think anyone who does obviously believes they know who goes to heaven and not. No offense meant.

I do not think I am going to burn in hell just because I do not accept the CC as my church, I do not believe I have to belong to a group to be accepted.
 
I agree. Please bring Holy-Sacred Tradition to the discussion. I’m still trying to understand exactly what it is. 🤷
You can start with your Bible. It is a product of Sacred Tradition. 👍
i derive my theology from the Scriptures and its not wise to go beyond the Scriptures. When we do we are relying on the speculations of men.
If this were true, then you would have no Scriptures from which to derive your truncated version of the faith. The criteria for what books were to be included, and the table of contents are both products of sacred tradition, and are beyond the scriptures. If these are nothing but “speculations of men”, then you have no valid bible.
These titles are very misleading from what we know of her in the Scriptures.
No, I don’t think so. However, I will agree that a persons knowledge of the scripture would have to be profound in order to appreciate the beauty of the titles. I also think one who was only limited to scripture for the revelation of God would not be able to appreciate them, and would find them misleading.
The Catholic church has allowed these titles and statements about Mary to go unchecked until you have not the biblical Mary but a Mary that in no way corresponds to the true Mary.
LOL. Well, we see it differently. We believe the “true Mary”, just like the “true Christ” cannot be confined to the scriptures. I suppose you will say that, since it is not in the Scriptures, she never changed his diaper, either!

Or for that matter, since we never see Jesus or the Apostles relieving themselves or taking a bath, they never did, or the thought they might have conducted personal hygiene is a
“speculation of men”?
 
Well, we read the scriptures differently, don’t we? Have you ever read about the gifts of the HS in the book of Isaiah? Did you know that the Spirit of Wisdom is one of the titles given there for who would rest upon Christ?

Did you ever wonder what happened when the HS “overshadowed” Mary?
**
Hi :tiphat: Guan,

JA4 doesn’t actually read the Bible it is against the rules! The Devil hates Jesus and the truths contained in the Bible. Of course, he has a list. It contains ten things he can ask. I don’t think he is even allowed to use the JKV or another corrupt version of the real bible,😛 You may check with him on that!

Your postings are 100% on point!👍
You really expend too much time trying to explain the unexplainable. It is easy to be understood but not by a closed mind!

He doesn’t want to learn he wants to insult Catholics and Jesus’ Mother. I believe it is root in his childhood and abandonment Issues.

God Bless**
 
what is sad is that their disdain for Mary keeps them from learning about the immensity of her role in Salvation History. they may get a glance of the main biblical types she represents, but the fog won’t let them go any further.

Mary unquestionably being a type of New Ark of the Covenant is without a doubt the easiest role to recognize.

show them how the Virgin Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. they will have no choice but to accept that there is more to the Blessed Virgin than they thought.
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=55698

**
justasking4**, does Scripture show that the Virgin Mary is a type of New Ark of the Covenant or does it not?
 
**
Hi :tiphat: Guan,

Your postings are 100% on point!👍
You really expend too much time trying to explain the unexplainable. It is easy to be understood but not by a closed mind!

He doesn’t want to learn he wants to insult Catholics and Jesus’ Mother. I believe it is root in his childhood and abandonment Issues.

God Bless**
I respond to postings from ja4 because Scripture enjoins us to “answer a fool, according to his folly”. Primarily I do so for the lurkers, who may learn something, and have been taught to ask the same questions or bring the same calumnies. There is a lot of rampant anti-Catholicism out there.

I agree with you about the root of hostility toward Mary. I think there are a lot of people who have had less than nurturing relationships with their mother, and it affects their attitudes toward motherhood. I watched a fascinating PBS last night about motherhood, including an interview with the Dalai Lama with some quotes about motherhood, what it is, and how important it is. You would think this would be hard for a person taken from his mother at a young age. But he has a better grasp of the power of motherhood than a lot of Christians, it seems to me.
 
Honestly, you just pointed out some reasons I have had the opposite affect. I’ll point them out:

I do not think only Catholics are the ones going to heaven, and I think anyone who does obviously believes they know who goes to heaven and not. No offense meant.

**I don’t either nor does the RCC. We do believe that you can go to heaven through the “graces” given to the RCC. **

I do not think I am going to burn in hell just because I do not accept the CC as my church, I do not believe I have to belong to a group to be accepted.
**Hi fellow Knight! :tiphat: **

**Christian. Up to a point you are correct.
But what you said is too general.
1 ) You don’t have to accept the CC as your church. But without the grace of the CC no one can get to heaven. If you want to fully worship God as he wants to be worshiped you should join the CC.
Otherwise some TV preacher will fill your head with “stuff”. (Remembered the TOS)
  1. You must " belong" to a group called “Christians” by being basptisted in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" “to be accepted” by Jesus. The Devilis another story, He accepts anyone! ::mad: **
**Because of your “young” age I will never play with your mind. Like I do with other posters , like my buddy JA4 and others. Although everything I say to them is “true”, I joke with them, attempting to get them to stop playing games and get real! 🙂 They know when I am joking!

No one knows who has been chosen. Many have been called, and only God knows that answer. I hope with me attempting to save souls ,by making them realize that the CC, the first and only church, has the answers to salvation more fully than churches that only follow the 5 “sola”. They sometimes lead themselves straight into hell. The Bible and God’s Church says that not I. The other churches were made much after the true chuch and as such are counterfeit an imitations.
I t is the truth it is a fact .Anyone can see that with their own eyes if they will only OPEN them.

God Bless.

Really these threads aren’t the best place to search for truth, too many Protestants here to get much of that!😃

Rob**
 
The Saints in heaven are unified to God and therefore they possess a supernatural dignity which reflects God’s glory and is worthy of our veneration. Although as far as I’m aware the Bible does not explicitly mention the veneration of Saints, it does contain the principles by which the practice of the Church developed.

The Old Testament contains references to veneration of Angels, and this makes sense because the Angels in heaven are also in the presence of God and reflect His glory, thus we read in Joshua 5:14

“And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?” 15And the commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.”

The Commander of the Lord’s Army is the Archangel Michael, whom Joshua worshiped, though its more proper to say venerated. Some Protestants will explain this away by saying this was a manifestation of the Son of God, however there are other clear examples of angels being venerated, for example in Daniel 8:15-17 the Archangel Gabriel is venerated.

Thus, it is not sinful to venerate those in union with God, it is just and reasonable. Remember, the best way to venerate a Saint is to mimic their virtue. It is also profitable for us to seek their intercession.
 
Dear Justasking4 - you state:“Originally Posted by justasking4
i derive my theology from the Scriptures and its not wise to go beyond the Scriptures. When we do we are relying on the speculations of men.” I’m wondering which men you think are merely speculating about things we understand a little differently than you.

Peace,

Gail
 
Originally Posted by RobGentner View Post

Hi Guan,

Your postings are 100% on point!
You really expend too much time trying to explain the unexplainable. It is easy to be understood but not by a closed mind!

He doesn’t want to learn he wants to insult Catholics and Jesus’ Mother. I believe it is root in his childhood and abandonment Issues.

God Bless

guanophore
I respond to postings from ja4 because Scripture enjoins us to “answer a fool, according to his folly”. Primarily I do so for the lurkers, who may learn something, and have been taught to ask the same questions or bring the same calumnies. There is a lot of rampant anti-Catholicism out there.

I agree with you about the root of hostility toward Mary. I think there are a lot of people who have had less than nurturing relationships with their mother, and it affects their attitudes toward motherhood. I watched a fascinating PBS last night about motherhood, including an interview with the Dalai Lama with some quotes about motherhood, what it is, and how important it is. You would think this would be hard for a person taken from his mother at a young age. But he has a better grasp of the power of motherhood than a lot of Christians, it seems to me.
i thought you were the only one who had the ability to read minds over the net. It now appears there are 2 by these 2 posts. After infallibility i wish i had this power to.:hypno:
 
Dear Justasking4 - you state:“Originally Posted by justasking4
i derive my theology from the Scriptures and its not wise to go beyond the Scriptures. When we do we are relying on the speculations of men.” I’m wondering which men you think are merely speculating about things we understand a little differently than you.

Peace,

Gail
I would start with those in your church who started the Marian doctrines and the speculations that have accumulated over the centuries about her that have nothing at all to do with her.
 
what is sad is that their disdain for Mary keeps them from learning about the immensity of her role in Salvation History. they may get a glance of the main biblical types she represents, but the fog won’t let them go any further.

Mary unquestionably being a type of New Ark of the Covenant is without a doubt the easiest role to recognize.

show them how the Virgin Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. they will have no choice but to accept that there is more to the Blessed Virgin than they thought.
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=55698

**
justasking4**, does Scripture show that the Virgin Mary is a type of New Ark of the Covenant or does it not?
Which writer specifically and explicitly says she is an ark? Chapter and verse please.
 
Dear Justasking4 - you state:“Originally Posted by justasking4
i derive my theology from the Scriptures and its not wise to go beyond the Scriptures. When we do we are relying on the speculations of men.”

I’m wondering which men you think are merely speculating about things we understand a little differently than you.

Peace,

Gail
**
Hi Gail,:tiphat:

Lets see there is Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Moses and a bunch of others guys!

If JA4 does answer you it will be with a question, There are rules!

God Bless **
 
i thought you were the only one who had the ability to read minds over the net. It now appears there are 2 by these 2 posts. After infallibility i wish i had this power to.:hypno:
Since we are on the topic of speculations, let’s hear yours! How do you think a person’s exeperience of motherhood might affect how they think of motherhood later in life, and maybe the motherhood of the theotokos?
I would start with those in your church who started the Marian doctrines and the speculations that have accumulated over the centuries about her that have nothing at all to do with her.
I guess that would be Luke and John, primarily, and Matthew. Luke parallels Mary with the Ark of the Covenant, and John shows Jesus always calling her “woman” *(mother of all living), then shows her being given as mother to the disciple that Jesus loves. Later, John shows her crowned in heaven, triumphing over the devil. These are the men that originated the “speculations” that have accumulated. 😃
Which writer specifically and explicitly says she is an ark? Chapter and verse please.
You have been shown these parallels dozens of times. Search
'justasking4 and ark of the covenant" and you will find all the posts. Chapters and verses are all included. 👍
 
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