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TLM08
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The concept of the “development of doctrine” can be used to justify nearly anything the Church wishes to do at later time.
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catholic1seeks
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Like the Canon of Scripture!! That took about 350 years to reach its final form!The concept of the “development of doctrine” can be used to justify nearly anything the Church wishes to do at later time.
**Remember: It’s an increase in UNDERSTANDING. The essential truths remain unchanged. Every single current belief held by the Catholic Church is directly linked to the deposit of faith given by Christ to His apostles (Jude 3).
The Church is the guardian of those truths. Part of the duty of the teaching voice withing the Church is to protect this deposit of faith from becoming heretical and corrupt. Guided by the Holy Spirit, the Church can and will accomplish this (Matthew 16:18).
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MariaG
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Yet isn’t that precisely what Christ said would happen when He told us that he would leave the Holy spirit to lead us since we were not yet ready to understand everything He had to tell us?The concept of the “development of doctrine” can be used to justify nearly anything the Church wishes to do at later time.
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guanophore
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This is not the case. I urge you to learn what the limits are on this development. The faith was “once and for all delivered to the Saints”, and new revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Nothing can be “developed” that is not grounded in the faith that Jesus entrusted to the Apostles.The concept of the “development of doctrine” can be used to justify nearly anything the Church wishes to do at later time.
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mdcpensive1
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TLM08
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Thank You for the kind words. As Catholics, we take it on faith that Christ is physically present in the Holy Eucharist. We cannot know it as a fact. As I received Holy Communion this past Sunday, my “amen” meant this: IF GOD WANTS IT TO BE SO …THEN IT IS SO!
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WatchfulPilgrim
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Hi Latingirl,
I can relate to all your questions. I just recently returned to the Catholic Church after 3 years of letting my doubts get the best of me. I just want to touch on a bit of your OP with some “new” thoughts:
Before these years of doubting I was devoutly Catholic. I can honestly tell you that my faith life was far richer as a Catholic, despite the lack of fellowship. My relationship with Christ gave me far more than these past 3 years of spectacular fellowhip with the Mennonites They were very very charitable, very involved in each others’ lives, etc… couldn’t have asked for a better community! But that is nothing in comparison to the intimacy with Christ one can have through the Sacraments.
) instead of what was handed down from the Apostles: the fullness of the faith. The original, 2000 year old interpretation is bound to be different than the man-made, 400 year old one.
I like what VociMike said in his first post here. “Become like a child and trust”. My error began when I arrogantly thought I could trust my own understanding of Scripture. Sola Scripturists put ALL of their trust in the interpretation they see (or most likely borrow from other men). But we must put all of our trust in God. He gave us the Church – it is a gift to us. The Sacraments, the Communion of Saints, the Eucharist, 2000 years worth of guidance… all gifts.
cont…
I can relate to all your questions. I just recently returned to the Catholic Church after 3 years of letting my doubts get the best of me. I just want to touch on a bit of your OP with some “new” thoughts:
Then, where are the laws and teachings of Scripture interpretation in the Bible? And where are the Table of Contents? Does the Bible say which writings, of all the writings circulating at time, were Scripture (inspired)?
I used to be afraid of this too. Catherine of Sienna, Gemma Galgani, Francis of Assisi, Theresa of Avila and Therese of Lisieux…Satan doesn’t produce saints like that!
Before these years of doubting I was devoutly Catholic. I can honestly tell you that my faith life was far richer as a Catholic, despite the lack of fellowship. My relationship with Christ gave me far more than these past 3 years of spectacular fellowhip with the Mennonites They were very very charitable, very involved in each others’ lives, etc… couldn’t have asked for a better community! But that is nothing in comparison to the intimacy with Christ one can have through the Sacraments.
Many of them borrow off each other their interpretations (protestant tradition
) instead of what was handed down from the Apostles: the fullness of the faith. The original, 2000 year old interpretation is bound to be different than the man-made, 400 year old one.They would have rejected Jesus’ use of mud to heal the blind man too. They probably also would have rejected the idea of the Incarnation. The Biblical facts are that God takes what is lowly and exalts it. He uses sinful humanity, water, bread, wine, oil, He even used dirt to heal a blind man! They deny God’s power when they reject the Sacraments. They confine God’s Presence in the world today to the indwelling Spirit. They do not see how much God has given us. I would be more fearful as a protestant, b/c rejecting the sacraments is, in effect, denying Christ. They were His ordained means through which the Spirit would be given (not limited to them though…)Most likely they would have rejected Jesus had they met Him 2000 years ago b/c the Church possesses all of the same evidence that Christ did for it’s divinity: lineage (succession), holiness, incarnation (Eucharist), miracles, man forgiving sins…
I like what VociMike said in his first post here. “Become like a child and trust”. My error began when I arrogantly thought I could trust my own understanding of Scripture. Sola Scripturists put ALL of their trust in the interpretation they see (or most likely borrow from other men). But we must put all of our trust in God. He gave us the Church – it is a gift to us. The Sacraments, the Communion of Saints, the Eucharist, 2000 years worth of guidance… all gifts.
B/c the mass is the highest form of prayer. We participate with all of Heaven during mass. Please read the Supper of the Lamb (or is it “The Lambs Supper?”) by Scott Hahn. When you look at Revelations you see the Mass: the altar, the Lamb, the prayers (Holy Holy Holy…), the incense… Scott Hahn teaches (as did the ECFs) that when we have Mass, all of Heaven is present. The Mass is where Heaven and Earth are met most profoundly. Heaven knows no time like we do. Whenever we celebrate Mass we are right back at calvary where the Son offers His life to the Father for us, and all of Heaven if present. That is why it is always good to make a good preparation for Mass – at least 10-30 minutes. Padre Pio (among many other saints) spent a great deal of time preparing for Mass. I want to say he took hours… If we had such faith and were so keenly aware of what we were about to partake of during Mass, I think we would take much greater care to be more mindful and reverent; spending some serious time reflecting on the mystery about to unfold before us and preparing our hearts and minds and stilling our spirits before it so that it never becomes so ordinary to us that it is taken for granted and participated in mindlessly.
In all my years of doubt, the Eucharist is what prevented me from making a commitment to the Mennonites. I don’t think I ever could have denied the Real Presence
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TLM08
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Well… not exactly. In the Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit supposedly leads the Holy Father… We are to follow whatever he says.
Evangelicals allow the Bible to be their authority. The Holy Spirit guides them individually as they read the Word of God.
Both have their shortfalls in my opinion. Can ONE man really be trusted with supreme authority? Certainly on the evangelical side, eveyone is going to have a slightly different take on the what the Word of God has to say.
I’ll just continue to seek Christ and pray for his guidance.
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WatchfulPilgrim
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The next time someone attacks you with the Bible, I want you to imagine they are your 16 year old daughter who just read the owner’s manual to your minivan and is arguing with you about how to drive it. “What are you talking about? I don’t need lessons, I just read the manual!” Or imagine they just finished watching a movie directed and produced by your best friend, and after watching it, they argue with him about the plot as if they understood it better than he…
Over 300 years there was no Bible.
Several, several hundred years later until the invention of the printing press…
History is very Catholic. Protestants have to revise history or at least assume there was some “faithful remnant” apart from the Catholic Church througout the time before the Reformation, b/c everything else in history points to the Catholic faith. The ECF writings are overwhelmingly Catholic. If the CC apostacized at some point, what does that say about Jesus’ promise to preserve the Church? And most importantly, if its possible for the church to have fallen into error at some point, then how can it be proven that it was not already in error when it preserved and compiled the canon of Scripture? How can it be proven that John 6 (eat my flesh…drink my blood…)for instance, was not erroneously inserted by Catholics to support their erroneous doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist?
Just some more thoughts to ponder that hopefully will help you defend your faith.
It really takes years to get a good handle on Catholic apologetics. I know you’re probably zealous about wanting to share your faith with others, but really the best way to share your faith is to immerse yourself in the Sacraments (particularly the Eucharist, and at least a monthly confession) so that you are spiritually strong. If you can, try to find a nearby chapel or church that has Eucharistic adoration and take time, every day if possible, but at least once or twice a week, to just sit and adore the Lord and let Him teach you there also. Jesus has to be the #1 place you get your strength. Knowledge is good, but doesn’t even come close to the love of the Eucharist.
Just think of all those who met Jesus for the first time 2000 years ago. They knew just about nothing of what we are talking about. Yet many of them came to faith just from encountering Jesus. The blind man, the woman caught in adultery, etc… none had more than a touch from Christ and a few words, but their lives were changed forever. Look at the work of Mother Theresa. That is the work of someone immersed in Jesus - so that when they see her and her work they see Jesus. And the closer we draw to Jesus in the Eucharist (through communion and adoration) the more our eyes are open to seeing Him in the world, in the suffering, the poor, elderly, imprisoned, etc…
Love speaks louder than words. Let God transform you and let that be your witness to your faith. Francis of Assis (I believe) said: “Preach always. If necessary, use words.”
Praying for you. Please pray for me also.
Peace~
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WatchfulPilgrim
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Wow. That is such a blatant misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches.
Please, if you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches, don’t enter a thread seeking help (from Catholics!) to try to confuse matters!
The Church is preserved from error. Only in very specific circumstances is the HF considered infallible. “Whatever he says” is not considered infallible. Furthermore, this infallibility of the Catholic Church is not limited to the HF.
This would be better treated in a separate thread, or else please do a search on the Pope and Infallibility.
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mdcpensive1
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WatchfulPilgrim
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Oh, that may be. Sorry if I jumped the gun on that, TLM08
Thanks for clearing that up, mdc
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latingirl
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*Salve *Watchful Pilgrim,
I actually just got finished reading The Lambs Supper by Scott Hahn. It is bewildering and a lot to take in. It definitely explains that “foggy” feeling. I know what you mean by saying preparation for Mass is important. I spend all week preparing.
Many of you say attending Confession once a month is best but I misbehave so much, I go once a week.
or I go when I feel real guilty about something. I like going to church so much that I think about pitching a tent by the altar 
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I have found myself that as a Catholic, my faith is stronger. The Catholic Church brought me to God after four years of college debauchery. I feel a closeness to our Lord that I have never felt as a Protestant or Agnostic. I think it was a matter or growing up. What amazes me though is also Protestants who are steadfast and strong in their faith. I constantly am saddened that they miss out on the Real Eucharist. But if I told them that it’d be seen that I think my church is better than theirs. On the other hand they’re probably thinking “If only they had the Bible” LOL
We’ve got both the Bible and Eucharist and I’m not giving either of them up. That’s why I find it disconcerting when people say our teachings contradict Scripture. For example,. I’m very confused about our veneration of saints. I cannot deny there are saints in heaven but many people say our praying to them denies Christ as the sole intercessor…which it does say in the Bible he is the ONLY intercessor. I have looked into Biblical basis on the saints and they say my interpretation (and that of the Church) is wrong and reading too much into Scripture. So my next question is:
Is the intercession of saints un-biblical, despite Biblical references to saints? Does the fact that Christ is our Sole Intercessor make it wrong- or even stupid to pray to saints? Can’t you just ask Christ to help you with things?
Gratias ad omnes, Rachel G.
I actually just got finished reading The Lambs Supper by Scott Hahn. It is bewildering and a lot to take in. It definitely explains that “foggy” feeling. I know what you mean by saying preparation for Mass is important. I spend all week preparing
.Many of you say attending Confession once a month is best but I misbehave so much, I go once a week.
or I go when I feel real guilty about something. I like going to church so much that I think about pitching a tent by the altar .I have found myself that as a Catholic, my faith is stronger. The Catholic Church brought me to God after four years of college debauchery. I feel a closeness to our Lord that I have never felt as a Protestant or Agnostic. I think it was a matter or growing up. What amazes me though is also Protestants who are steadfast and strong in their faith. I constantly am saddened that they miss out on the Real Eucharist. But if I told them that it’d be seen that I think my church is better than theirs. On the other hand they’re probably thinking “If only they had the Bible” LOL
We’ve got both the Bible and Eucharist and I’m not giving either of them up. That’s why I find it disconcerting when people say our teachings contradict Scripture. For example,. I’m very confused about our veneration of saints. I cannot deny there are saints in heaven but many people say our praying to them denies Christ as the sole intercessor…which it does say in the Bible he is the ONLY intercessor. I have looked into Biblical basis on the saints and they say my interpretation (and that of the Church) is wrong and reading too much into Scripture. So my next question is:
Is the intercession of saints un-biblical, despite Biblical references to saints? Does the fact that Christ is our Sole Intercessor make it wrong- or even stupid to pray to saints? Can’t you just ask Christ to help you with things?
Gratias ad omnes, Rachel G.
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mdcpensive1
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latingirl, very good question that many outside the Church should understand.*Salve *
Watchful Pilgrim,
I actually just got finished reading The Lambs Supper by Scott Hahn. It is bewildering and a lot to take in. It definitely explains that “foggy” feeling. I know what you mean by saying preparation for Mass is important. I spend all week preparing
Many of you say attending Confession once a month is best but I misbehave so much, I go once a week.
I have found myself that as a Catholic, my faith is stronger. The Catholic Church brought me to God after four years of college debauchery. I feel a closeness to our Lord that I have never felt as a Protestant or Agnostic. I think it was a matter or growing up. What amazes me though is also Protestants who are steadfast and strong in their faith. I constantly am saddened that they miss out on the Real Eucharist. But if I told them that it’d be seen that I think my church is better than theirs. On the other hand they’re probably thinking “If only they had the Bible” LOL
We’ve got both the Bible and Eucharist and I’m not giving either of them up. That’s why I find it disconcerting when people say our teachings contradict Scripture. For example,. I’m very confused about our veneration of saints. I cannot deny there are saints in heaven but many people say our praying to them denies Christ as the sole intercessor…which it does say in the Bible he is the ONLY intercessor. I have looked into Biblical basis on the saints and they say my interpretation (and that of the Church) is wrong and reading too much into Scripture. So my next question is:
Is the intercession of saints un-biblical, despite Biblical references to saints? Does the fact that Christ is our Sole Intercessor make it wrong- or even stupid to pray to saints? Can’t you just ask Christ to help you with things?
Gratias ad omnes, Rachel G.
Scripture has it that we are on the vine with our faith. As grapes that are by themselves wither on the vine, those of us who are in bunches are nourished by Christ’s Grace coming from the true vine. As St. Paul says we are all one Body in Christ. It is a Church of the living and those of us who have passed into the next life of the Lord are still living, but in a glorious state which we will join them hopefully some day. These are the Saints that surround us in Hebrews 12. When the heavenly liturgy is being presented in Revelation 8, the saints are offering our prayers on the altar. This is their intercession for us. As we ask our saintly friends to intercede for us they mediate for us to Christ with our requests.
Our one mediator is Christ. But because we share in his family by baptism we can now share in His mediation. He gives us the grace to do the works that is His work. By our good works done with His Grace, we are working on salvation and mediating that salvation by our actions. It is not our mediation, but our cooperation with the One Mediator who is Christ. We are working with Him to bring about His will. We do not work on our own but always with the Graces he merited for us on Calvary.
mdcpensive1
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latingirl
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I usually respond with “Christ is the ONE mediator for our Salvation” That is true. I have always seen heaven as like an office where the Holy Trinity is Boss and the saints are typing away at our prayers
- kind of like a big network. My issue is, will I go to Christ and only to Christ in prayer? Because Christ is the only one necessary for salvation, what is the point of praying to saints?
Any power they have comes from Christ anyway.
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WatchfulPilgrim
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To pray means to ask. When you ask your fellow Christians on earth to pray for you, they also are mediating. The saints in Heaven are also part of the body of Christ. This is what is called the Communion of Saints. We are all in communion: the church militant (on earth; still fighting the spiritual battle) and the church triumphant (in Heaven). Those who have passed on are not dead. The Bible says God is not a God of the dead but of the living. The Saints in Heaven are more alive than we are; enjoying the beatific vision. When you pray to or venerate a saint, it is God you are giving the honor too, b/c it is His work that you are acknowledging. The Saints are like a fine piece of art. In venerating them, you are complimenting the artist. First among His greatest works is Mary. There certainly is nothing wrong with asking God directly; praying to God directly, yet, what non-Catholic is opposed to asking earthly friends to say a prayer for them as well? Why not storm Heavens gate with prayer? Why not have Heaven interceeding as well?
Jesus is our one mediator, but we are all His body; we are all in Christ. Intercessory prayer is not unlike “redemptive suffering”. Another work of Christ’s that we share in. Paul says “I complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ”. What could be lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Our participation. As members of His body, we participate in His redemptive work; joining our suffering with His. This is what “offer it up” means; “join in to the cross”.
Peace~
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MariaG
Guest
But it is not one man who has this leading. While the pope has a special authority it is very limited. But we can see in scripture that Christ made some wonderful promises about His Church.Well… not exactly. In the Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit supposedly leads the Holy Father… We are to follow whatever he says.
Evangelicals allow the Bible to be their authority. The Holy Spirit guides them individually as they read the Word of God.
Both have their shortfalls in my opinion. Can ONE man really be trusted with supreme authority? Certainly on the evangelical side, eveyone is going to have a slightly different take on the what the Word of God has to say.
I’ll just continue to seek Christ and pray for his guidance.
Scripture Catholic has some, too numerous to list and I will post a link. It will take a little work as they do not list the verse but rather the Catholic explanation of the verse. Some I do not find at all compelling, others very much so.
The Church is infallible and Supernatural
And so I in fact agree with you to a certain extent, one man cannot be trusted. But the Church can, especially when you come to understand that connectiveness of Christ and the Church. Christ is the Church. So we are in fact just trusting Christ as you have always done.
As well as, I ironically as it may seem, was led to the CAtholic Church by the Holy Spirit and scripture alone! It was such a relief to finally realize I did not have to become a theologian to figure out who was interpreting scripture correctly. I could simple trust in Christ, in His Church which He left to guide us to all truth.
God Bless,
Maria
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guanophore
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This is not true, TLM. Of course we trust in God to lead the Holy Father, and pray the he will listen. However, that does not subtract from our responsibility to be individually led by the HS. He is a shepherd, not a substitute for our faith practice. We are responsible for our own spiritual lives, to read our scriptures daily, and attend Mass, and pray and follow the Spirit just as we expect him to do.
Furthermore, it is misleading to say “we are to follow whatever he says”. Some of his instruction does not apply to everyone. Most of his instruction, valuable as it is, does not rise to the level of infallibility. Popes are not perfect, can, and do commit sins. We would not emulate the behavior of the pope if he committed a sin. We have been blessed in the last century with many holy popes but history has shown that people can be corrupt.
Look at our first Pope! Peter was no sooner told he was to be the foundation stone of the Church when he tried to get in Jesus way to the cross! Peter was not perfect either. His statement was infallible, but not all his actions.
The Bible is authoritative, and is an essential source of Christian life. It should be read by all, seeking the guidance of the HS. This is as much (if not more) important for Catholics as it is for others. Catholics are used to getting a regular diet of scripture at daily Mass, but for those that can’t attend, it is essential to read and study.
I agree. I think if you embrace both you will have balance. Scripture is essential. Church teaching is essential. They should not be separated.
Of course not! Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The supreme authority of the Church is Jesus. The soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. It is these divine elements in which we put our trust. We pray for the Holy FAther that he will d the same, and we accept him as Jesus choice to shepherd the flock.
Catholics are not immune to this either. This is why it is so important to read it from the framework it was written - the teaching of the Apostles.
You might want to consider reading the catechism too, as you seem to have some strange ideas about the Catholic faith.I’ll just continue to seek Christ and pray for his guidance.
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guanophore
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This is great! You will find that, as you continue to avail your self of the healing graces in the sacrament, that you will misbehave less and less.Many of you say attending Confession once a month is best but I misbehave so much, I go once a week.
YOu may need to speak to a vocational director about that.I like going to church so much that I think about pitching a tent by the altar
Actually, the Bible does not say that. The Bible says CHrist is our sole mediator between God and man. No one else can mediate the salvation we have attained by His blood. He has mediated eternal life for us.
In his generosity, He has ordained that we be able to participate in the ministry of reconciling the world to Himself (evangelism) and intercession. We are all called to pray for one another, and those that do not know Him. It is BECAUSE He is the One Mediator that we have this privilege. It is part of being light and salt in the world.
Yes, you should ask Christ to help you. Asking the saints to join us in such prayers is like having a prayer meeting with those who have already gone on to their heavenly reward. It the book of Revelation we have a beautiful picture of how the saints there are in prayer for us.
The main trouble those who are separated from the Apostolic faith have with prayer to the saints is that they have rejected the doctrine of the communion of the saints. Read about this in the catechism. They don’t believe those who have passed are alive forever with Christ, or they don’t believe they know what is going on here on earth. The Bible says otherwise.
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guanophore
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If Christ were “the only one necessary for salvation” why did He found a Church? Why did He teach us that we are members one of another, and that we should pray for one another that we can be healed? We all need to be brought into holiness, and Jesus intended that we help one another to do this. Of course He could snap his fingers and make us all instantly holy. Instead, He chose to make us members of His One Body, the Church, and to join us to one another. We are to bear with one another’s suffereings, and thus fufill the Law of Christ.
You are right, all the power any of us has to help one another comes from Christ. He is glorified when He is made perfect within us. The more perfectly we love and care for one another, the more He is raised up.
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