J
johnnyjones
Guest
One saying savior and redeemer over and over when it has been pointed out otherwise seems like a refusal bordering on resistance indoctrination.
- Status
E
Erick_Ybarra
Guest
I heard a quote from one of the Popes that said “victory” would come through Mary.
For goodness sake, Paul resounds "But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord " (1 Corinthians 15:56).
For goodness sake, Paul resounds "But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord " (1 Corinthians 15:56).
E
Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Just because the Catholic Church put together the NT does not mean that it had read it aright. The catholic church did not write Paul’s epistles. Paul wrote them. And even Catholic scholars themselves admit that Catholics have misinterpreted the scriptures
T
TimothyH
Guest
Mary is called the Co-Redemtrix. All look at the holy women of the Old Testament shows us how that is possible.
Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord. Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man’s beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law." (2 Macabees 7:20-23)
Mary wasn’t just sitting at the foot of the cross passively watching her son die. She was encouraging him to finish his work, telling her son to be of good courage and that God will give him back both breath and life.
This is how she is known as the coredemtrix, and how victory comes through the one who encourages and assists the victor as much as it does the victor.
-Tim-
R
Richca
Guest
Victory has come through Mary ever since Mary said yes to the incarnation of the Son of God at the annunciation (Luke 1: 26-38). According to catholic tradition, this victory of Christ and Mary over the ancient serpent was pronounced long before St Paul wrote 1 Corinthians in Genesis 3:15, the protoevangelium:
I will put enmity between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
He will strike at your head,
while you strike at his heel.
Catholic tradition has seen in this passage of scripture a reference to both Jesus and Mary.
J
johnnyjones
Guest
It should be pointed out so as not to confuse some seeking answers that Co-Redemtrix is not co redemer. I’m not sure that Co-redemtrix is an offical dogma of the church, but it was being considered.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Really? So you are telling us the CATHOLIC CHURCH has misinterpreted Scripture?
It is no news that INDIVIDUALS can make mistakes. A person can be a Catholic and make errors.
But that is not the same as saying the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches or misinterprets Scripture and ‘errs’, right?
So why would you say that "Catholics have misinterpreted’ right after “The Catholic Church put together the Scriptures” if you are NOT trying to imply that The Catholic Church (full of those pesky Catholics) has been erring, even from the start?
And if you ARE SAYING that, how about providing some proof?
I am getting AWFULLY tired (admittedly this is the 2nd day of a MIGRAINE for me) of reading your strawmen, reading your ‘assertions’ with no proof, etc. However I’m not tired enough to stop correcting your errors!
We have no problems at all having dialogues with people who disagree. What we have trouble with are people who are not aware of what the Church actually is and teaches, and try to argue their false INTERPRETATIONs of such as truth.
Please, don’t be 'that kind of person."
I
Ion
Guest
Let’s say you are the groom of the wedding in Cana: to whom and how do you give thanks for saving your wedding?
E
Erick_Ybarra
Guest
I know of 1 error. The catechism teaches that 1 peter 1:7 teaches purgatory where Peter is clearly referring to present trialsReally? So you are telling us the CATHOLIC CHURCH has misinterpreted Scripture?
It is no news that INDIVIDUALS can make mistakes. A person can be a Catholic and make errors.
But that is not the same as saying the CATHOLIC CHURCH teaches or misinterprets Scripture and ‘errs’, right?
So why would you say that "Catholics have misinterpreted’ right after “The Catholic Church put together the Scriptures” if you are NOT trying to imply that The Catholic Church (full of those pesky Catholics) has been erring, even from the start?
And if you ARE SAYING that, how about providing some proof?
I am getting AWFULLY tired (admittedly this is the 2nd day of a MIGRAINE for me) of reading your strawmen, reading your ‘assertions’ with no proof, etc. However I’m not tired enough to stop correcting your errors!
We have no problems at all having dialogues with people who disagree. What we have trouble with are people who are not aware of what the Church actually is and teaches, and try to argue their false INTERPRETATIONs of such as truth.
Please, don’t be 'that kind of person."
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
You know no such thing! You may believe it, or suspect it, but you don’t know it. Why? because there is only ONE authority for Scripture, the Church. Otherwise, we have private judgement. On the one hand THE CHURCH, on the other PRIVATE JUDGEMENT. Private judgement means everyone can think whatever one wants about anything anywhere in the Bible. You are a Protestant, therefore you are a believer in private judgement. Therefore anything the Church says still must have SOME validity, since that is THEIR private judgement (in your own way of looking at things.) Therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to “KNOW” anyone is wrong about anything. You can only believe it, or suspect it based on your own private judgement.
J
johnnyjones
Guest
You can say all kinds of things about scripture because you are at a loss for authority. What denomination, of the mega denominations, are you? You point a finger and find error with catholic doctrine yet your Protestant brother & sisters often have disputes on scripture verses even to the point of salvation.
Be careful where you tread as your own house has much disarray.
1Peter 1:7 is a comparison of Purgatory, it is used as a foundation of the doctrine.
E
Erick_Ybarra
Guest
Listen, I have no part in the mainline denominations. And I wouldn’t exactly call myself a protestant in the traditional or modern sense.
When Jesus scathingly rebuked people saying “Have you not read?”… etc, etc,
he appeals for the human being to think on the word of God and for what it is saying. If we strip away common sense and the intellect of the human being, then we have not served Christ, we have abused authority for the sake of control. Pope John Paul II nor Benedict have this idea of leadership in the Church.
Let’s read the Scripture with the mind of Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various [c]trials, 7 so that the [d]proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which [e]is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and [f]full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of [g]your souls.
An infallible authority which forsakes any of the basic laws of logic and reason is never how God has ever worked in the history of salvation.
When Jesus scathingly rebuked people saying “Have you not read?”… etc, etc,
he appeals for the human being to think on the word of God and for what it is saying. If we strip away common sense and the intellect of the human being, then we have not served Christ, we have abused authority for the sake of control. Pope John Paul II nor Benedict have this idea of leadership in the Church.
Let’s read the Scripture with the mind of Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various [c]trials, 7 so that the [d]proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which [e]is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and [f]full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of [g]your souls.
- The testing of fire is directly and solely tied to the “various trials” which the people have and presently are going through. Therefore, there is no reference to anything else besides the present lives of the people Peter is writing to. That is how the first receivers read it, that is how Christ wants us to read it, and to read it any other way is to forsake the mind of the human being.
- The "testing by fire" definitely does not take on some impurity of the soul which must be pure for heaven, rather it is a virtue to have one’s faith tested by fire and to have if found for glory. Purgatory is in place due to remaining purification, which implies there is a lack. St. Peter here is not referring to any lack on the their part, but of the fullness of their faith as enduring the fire.
An infallible authority which forsakes any of the basic laws of logic and reason is never how God has ever worked in the history of salvation.
I
Ion
Guest
1 Cor 2:16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But WE have the mind of Christ.
I don’t know other sense than traditional or modern.
Catholics are WE in tradition, but you are a lone reader of the bible…You don’t match there…
J
johnnyjones
Guest
No, you listen, because when you enter into a “debate” with that old cliched and vague description of what really are I know all about it. YOU wouldn’t call yourself a Protestant, but let me break it to you, you are. A PROTEST-TANT in every sense of the word as you protest the teachings of the catholic church. Your doing what I did 20 years ago and it’s nothing new. Same old talking points and scripture verses that challenge.
You didn’t read my post and held quick to what you want to embrace . Not all commentary presents 1 Peter as actual purgatory. It is a reflection of it, a comparison and used as a foundation for the doctrine. Take some time to read the posts. Several times you have repeated obvious misconceptions about the church as if in a blind trance. Take the blinders off and look at your own reformers who accepted the perpetual virginity of Mary as a biblical teaching. Try to learn, not preach.
E
Erick_Ybarra
Guest
The catholic catechism teaches that. St peter is referring to trials. I’ve never seen such anti intellectualism in my life. And thebcatholic church respects human reason? ? Jesus spoke to the rational of his modern day hearers. It is irrational to read Peter as referring to anything other than what the Jews were experiencing. Show me by plain reasoning
J
johnnyjones
Guest
You mean you’ve never felt so self absorbed with your anti catholicism and reveal it by interjecting concepts I never implied.
Time and again you present true anti intellectualism by avoiding the biggest anti catholic of his day, Martin Luther among others who held to the perpetual virginity of Mary as biblical.
1 peter 1:7 is not a prooftext of Purgatoy, if we used single prooftexts to form our doctrines, we’d have 100’s and 1000’s of churches branching off because of these interpretations (sound familiar).
As I said, it is instead, part of the whole context that forms our theology. The “tested by fire” is better explained in Paul’s letter to Corinthians.
E
Erick_Ybarra
Guest
But peter would sayv’‘what???’’ I said trials not purgatory
S
sambos671
Guest
As I see it you have two issues. First of all 1 Peter 1:7 isn’t speaking to just trials but faith development. That is the direct reading of the passage. The point of the trials which Peter speaks about is for the purpose of faith development which occures at all points along the path to salvation. Note what the passage just before says
this faith development and the sufferings (trials) that go with it should be done with an eschatalogical perspective. Ie at the consumation of all things. We suffer presently as God develops our faith so that we may have the entirety of our salvation revealed at the very end (not just at the end of our lives but at the end of all things). So at each point along our being transformed into the image of Jesus Christ we suffer these things perfecting ourselves to be presented at that last moment as spotless brides. Now does this just occur during our physical lives? If you say yes then you have the problem of ignoring 1 Corinthians 15:28-29
the eschatological perspective in verse 28 is clearly seen. And then
Clearly the Christian practice at that time was to be baptized for the dead with the expectation of the dead’s resurrection at the consumation or at the end of days. Clearly God continues to sanctify us (perfect us) until we are perfect and can be presented as a spotless bride in actuality not in fiction as many protestants believe.
And this continues after our physical deaths why else be baptized for the dead with the hope of the resurrection? If purgatory were such an offense to Paul certainly he would have preached against this practice but no he uses the practice to make the point for the hope of the resurrection.
J
johnnyjones
Guest
Again as usual, avoidance of pertinent questions and subject matter.
E
Erich
Guest
- Do you interpret the Bible? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #1 is yes, is your interpretation infallible? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #2 is no, then will you admit that your interpretations of the Bible could be wrong in one or more places? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #1 is yes, then does anyone have the authority to tell you that your interpretations of the Bible are wrong? Yes or no?
- If the answer to #4 is yes, then who? Just one name please.
- When Philip asked the Ethiopian eunuch if he understood the prophet Isaiah, he replied, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” (Acts 8:31). So, would you agree that the Bible does not “interpret itself?” Yes or no?
- Status