I'm in a whole lot of pain right now - Fiancée working at PP

[decn2b]

I fail to see why this is different that using a condom.

The difference is that god created the fertile and infertile periods. And man created condoms. Using NFP does not take God out of the equation. Using a Condom SHOVES god out of the equation. Really have you read the old testament? Wasting the seed (semen) is actully mentioned. in the bible.

WHy do you suppose god set us up to have fertile and infertile periods? There is a reason why a woman is only fertile for approximately 100 hours per month.

 

[anamchara]

Officially over. Pretty messy too as she didn’t seem willing to hold a civilized conversation. Very stressful and sorrowful situation altogether.

Thank you though for all of your wonderful thoughts and prayers. You’ll really never know how much a support group you were. God bless you all and you should all sleep well knowing that you’ve helped a troubled soul.

Chris

Chris, I’ve been reading this very heart rendering thread, I am so sorry for your pain. I do understand what this type of pain is like my friend. You have my prayers of healing, please do keep coming back in here and talk if you feel you need to. As you can see there are so many wonderful people who care on here.

Place your sorrows at the feet of Christ and know He loves you.

I wanted to add, I think you are much better off, she didn’t seem to care about who you really are.

 

[dympnha]

God has given you a great gift. You have a glimpse of what your life will be like if you go ahead and get married. Breaking an engagement now beats a divorce two or three years down the road.

 

[ElianaPiano]

Officially over. Pretty messy too as she didn’t seem willing to hold a civilized conversation. Very stressful and sorrowful situation altogether.

Thank you though for all of your wonderful thoughts and prayers. You’ll really never know how much a support group you were. God bless you all and you should all sleep well knowing that you’ve helped a troubled soul.

Chris

I’ll will also be including you in my prayers. I can understand your pain a little, having recently gone through a breakup with my boyfriend. Now, we agreed much better than you and your fiance did. He was a convert to the Catholic Church, and wanted to be very faithful to the church’s teaching. But we were disagreeing on how to raise a family, and on what our priorities in life were. Also, he behaved rudely with my family, which was a warning sign. And he made me cry by treating me rather brusquely. I was very torn about what to do, as I did have romantic feelings to complicate the decision. But my parents gave me wise advice and were able to see the problems for what they were, without any romantic feelings involved. So with their help in discernment, I broke up, even though it was difficult. Now that I’ve actually gone through with the decision, I can see more and more that it was the right thing, which was harder to see when I was in the process of breaking up.

From you’ve said in your posts, I’d definitely say she’s the wrong girl for you. She was taking you away from the faith–a big red flag. So be glad that this issue came up to make you see the relationship for what it really was.

Don’t give up hope on finding an orthodox Catholic girl. They’re out there–it’s just faithful Catholic men that are hard to find!

 

[st_ignatius110]

. Just so dang hard to find an orthodox catholic girl these days.

Chris,

First of all, my thoughts and prayers are with you. I know this is a hearbreaking time for you. Always remember that our true Spouse is Jesus Christ. Their is no better lover, no better romance then Jesus. Receive Him in the Eucharist often and be united to Him. Ask Him to be the Lover of your soul. He will not fail you. Run to the Divine Mercy of our Lord and He will shelter you in His most Sacred Heart. Rest in His Heart and know that no other Spouse will do. When we marry here on earth it is only a faint reflection of that great union which is to come.

 

[Imagine23]

Huh?
Am I correct to think that you believe that only choices made with free will are sinless. You do have the free will to blow somones head off with a shotgun. Just becuase it is free will doen’t mean its not evil.

I am having trouble getting a handle on your understanding of how events like spontaneous abortion relate to mankind an our relationship wth God

Can I ask you a question? If you will,could you explain to me breifly your understanding of the fall of man and the effects of original sin?
Then I think we can continue the discussion.

I will warn you though, the authority to determine whether condom use is OK or not does not lie within the individual. IF that were the case then there would be 6 billion different variations as to whether it is OK or not. ( assuming the population of the world is 6 billion) If you beleive that it does lie withing the individual then you are a relativist. It is impossible to be a relativsit and a Catholic. Actually it is impossible to be a relativist.

A Catholic is BOUND to believe in the authority of the church on ALL matters. If one denies ONE truth they are pulling the pin on the handgrenade of deconstructionalism.

with this in mind If we cannot associate our understandings on Salvation History…then we will just end up hollering at each other.

Unfortunately having independent thoughts does seem incompatible with being Catholic.

This is how it works. An egg is fertilized. Shortly thereafter in many cases the fertilized egg detaches (thus does not grow and become a baby) and “spontaneously aborts” as I call it.

This is a natural phenomenon that happens all the time due to no intentional or negligent act on the part of the mother. It’s a fact. Look it up. Since you believe God controls nature, he must cause these natural spontaneous abortions. If not, who does? Is it just chance? Accident? You guys don’t believe in that.

 

[Saoirse]

from what I’ve seen, Imagine23 is atheist?

Imagine, please correct me if I am wrong and let the community here know where you stand… it’s only fair to warn those who have come here to seek solid Catholic advice and support if you are here to advice otherwise.

Chris,
both you and your ex are in my prayers. keep me in yours, as well, as the only men I’ve ever been interrested in have asked me to abandon my faith for them.

there are Catholic girls out there (and a few Catechumans and Candidates as well) who are just waiting (impatiently, for my part, lol) for the young Catholic men to take an interest…

be as involved in your Parish community as you can, participate in literally everything that you can - and you’ll find them.

You should not be first for the woman you marry, and she should not be first for you. God is the center from where everything else grows, remember that.

Even if your ex had left PP for you, her center would not have been God. Both partners need to have their focus on God, because both partners will change, grow, struggle, in the course of a marriage. It is God who is stable, and only upon His stability that a stable marriage is most readily built.

love and prayers,
Saoirse

 

[jman507]

Unfortunately having independent thoughts does seem incompatible with being Catholic.

This is how it works. An egg is fertilized. Shortly thereafter in many cases the fertilized egg detaches (thus does not grow and become a baby) and “spontaneously aborts” as I call it.

This is a natural phenomenon that happens all the time due to no intentional or negligent act on the part of the mother. It’s a fact. Look it up. Since you believe God controls nature, he must cause these natural spontaneous abortions. If not, who does? Is it just chance? Accident? You guys don’t believe in that.

I suppose if you mean thoughts must be dependent on principles, I suppose your right. When it comes to morality, a Catholic must stand on Catholic principles. As a matter, any type of morality should be based on some type of moral principles or any thoughts would be amoral. You cannot say something is right or wrong with a logical thought without being dependant on reasons for being right or wrong. I guess that means a scientist cannot call something science if it is independent of the principles of the scientific method.

I suppose if one person is shot intentionally to try to murder by another. Let’s say the bullet tears open a major artery. That leads to a massive hemorrhage of blood. That leads to shock and anoxemia. That lack of oxygen to the brain ends up ceasing brain function and death. That seems to be a natural cause of death.

Now lets say another person has a large aortic aneurysm that bursts. That leads to a massive hemorrhage of blood. That causes shock and anoxemia. The lack of oxygen to the brain ends up ceasing brain function and death. That seems to be a natural cause of death.

That death happens is not the action that is in moral concern, what is the action that lead to death. In one the gun shot was intended to kill the other, that action I say, and disagree if you wish, was morally wrong. In the aneurysm, no action was taken by anyone to cause the death, and no moral questions are on the table.

On the matter of God, it is his choice as to our life and death. In this world we may die, but we always have life eternally. That we should live or die, is neither good nor bad, but if we will that life should be artificially be cut short we come back to a morality question. The moral question is on the table, since Catholics are guided by principle, arguments have to be made upon those.

 

[jmcrae]

Unfortunately having independent thoughts does seem incompatible with being Catholic.

Yeah, that’s why our faith forums only run to thousands of pages, while Protestant ones run way up into the dozens.

This is how it works. An egg is fertilized. Shortly thereafter in many cases the fertilized egg detaches (thus does not grow and become a baby) and “spontaneously aborts” as I call it.

Yes …

This is a natural phenomenon that happens all the time due to no intentional or negligent act on the part of the mother. It’s a fact. Look it up. Since you believe God controls nature, he must cause these natural spontaneous abortions. If not, who does? Is it just chance? Accident? You guys don’t believe in that.

There’s also “Original Sin” which is the first cause of all the evil in the world, including natural disasters, and including illnesses and every kind of death.

God didn’t cause it, but He allowed it, because of His gift of free will given to Adam and Eve. But if they had the freedom to sin, but not the freedom to experience the consequences of their sin, then where is the freedom? So, we, the children of Adam and Eve, experience the consequences of their sin - along with the consequences of our own sins, and the consequences of each others’ sins, as well. We’re all in this together; no one can claim that their sins don’t hurt anybody else.

Those of us who freely choose to follow God (Jesus Christ) will be set free from this valley of tears at the time of our death, and we will experience Life Everlasting in the way that God had originally intended for the whole human race.

Meanwhile, we do our best not to be part of the problem …

 

[Jennifer123]

Unfortunately having independent thoughts does seem incompatible with being Catholic.

This is how it works. An egg is fertilized. Shortly thereafter in many cases the fertilized egg detaches (thus does not grow and become a baby) and “spontaneously aborts” as I call it.

Fertilized egg = embryo. An embryo = human being in the embryonic stage of development. A human being in the embryonic stage of development = baby.

Not “as I call it”, it’s actual scientific fact.

Unfortunately having “independent thoughts” does not always seem compatible with truth and accuracy.

LOL

 

[Black_Jaque]

Unfortunately having independent thoughts does seem incompatible with being Catholic.

Imagine,

Try using your superior thinking powers to imagine how an action that doesn’t immediately cause harm ends up causing harm farther along in the process.

example: Selling illegal drugs. The act of selling drugs does no harm. A simple exchange of money and goods. No harm there?

Some evil actions are so insidious that their hideous fruits are so far removed from the action that the weak minded can’t see the connection.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

Some evil actions are so insidious that their hideous fruits are so far removed from the action that the weak minded can’t see the connection.

 

[beckers]

Officially over. Pretty messy too as she didn’t seem willing to hold a civilized conversation. Very stressful and sorrowful situation altogether.

Thank you though for all of your wonderful thoughts and prayers. You’ll really never know how much a support group you were. God bless you all and you should all sleep well knowing that you’ve helped a troubled soul.

Chris

I am sorry to hear about it. Take this next few weeks to really discover who you are as a person. Remeber you are a complete person and don’t need a partner to define you. Embrace this time of growth. Then take some time to think about what you truly want in a wife.And don’t settle until you find her! Believe me there is some women out there who will appreciate and desire you for your spiritual strength and love of God.

God Bless!
Beckers

p.s. do we think we could not hijack this thread into a debate about PP and NFP. I believe there are enough threads on going. This is a thread about a man who is going through heartbreak and crying and reaching out to his fellow man not about the specfics of abortion being morally wrong.

 

[Eliza10]

… not that big of an issue and that if I loved her as much as I said I do, I would support it. …

Her quote was “my husband should love everything about me and support me always”… I

I guess she’s not your kind of girl. She wants you to love and to serve her, over and above God Himself.

 

[Elizastaci]

Chris,

Sorry to hear about all you’re going through! Trust me, there are good Catholic girls out there…I’m a 20-year-old girl who hasn’t even had her first kiss, because I haven’t found any good Catholic boys to date. I’ve dated a few non-Catholic boys, but none that were respectful of me and/or my body. So props to you for being choosy…I know how hard it is!

Best wishes and God Bless.

 

[Imagine23]

Yeah, that’s why our faith forums only run to thousands of pages, while Protestant ones run way up into the dozens.

Yes …

There’s also “Original Sin” which is the first cause of all the evil in the world, including natural disasters, and including illnesses and every kind of death.

God didn’t cause it, but He allowed it, because of His gift of free will given to Adam and Eve. But if they had the freedom to sin, but not the freedom to experience the consequences of their sin, then where is the freedom? So, we, the children of Adam and Eve, experience the consequences of their sin - along with the consequences of our own sins, and the consequences of each others’ sins, as well. We’re all in this together; no one can claim that their sins don’t hurt anybody else.

Those of us who freely choose to follow God (Jesus Christ) will be set free from this valley of tears at the time of our death, and we will experience Life Everlasting in the way that God had originally intended for the whole human race.

Meanwhile, we do our best not to be part of the problem …

Free will? What are you talking about? Who’s will? A woman who unknowingly becomes pregnant and has a spontaneous abortion (also unknowingly) willed it? How does that work?

 

[Imagine23]

Fertilized egg = embryo. An embryo = human being in the embryonic stage of development. A human being in the embryonic stage of development = baby.

Not “as I call it”, it’s actual scientific fact.

Unfortunately having “independent thoughts” does not always seem compatible with truth and accuracy.

LOL

Sorry to see that you’ve completely missed my point. What I said was that God performs abortions all the time. As you’ve so astutely noted, an embryo is a living organism with the potential to turn into a human. When God causes embryos to become detached from the uterine wall, he performs abortions.

 

[jmcrae]

Free will? What are you talking about? Who’s will? A woman who unknowingly becomes pregnant and has a spontaneous abortion (also unknowingly) willed it? How does that work?

NO.

I’ll try to make this simple for you:

When we sin.

We affect other people, too.

People who didn’t know it was going to happen to them.

They suffer the consequences of.

Of our free will choice to sin.

Sin causes pain, disease, and disasters in the world.

My personal choice to sin.

Affects the whole world.

In ways that I can’t even imagine.

But it’s my choice.

And I do it freely.

Even though I know.

That I can’t predict what the consequences will be.

Including the deaths of innocent people.

The anger in my heart.

If I choose the anger.

If I choose on purpose to not forgive.

Could become a volcano.

That kills a million innocent people.

Or a cancer.

That takes the life of a seven year old boy.

That’s what “sin” is - a disruption that fissures out into the whole world, in what direction, and with what result, we cannot know.

The body and the spirit are one thing. We are also all connected to each other. And we are all connected to the world. What we do, good or bad, in the open, or in secret, literally affects the whole world.

In chaos theory, they tell us that a butterfly in Tokyo, by fluttering its wings just so, can start the wind that grows to become the hurricane in Florida - and the butterfly didn’t intend for that to happen - she was just trying to get a better view of the flowers.

Sin is a kind of chaos. (Probably the worst kind.) It doesn’t affect only the sinner.

It is not just the few direct, foreseeable consequences that we can see, here and now.

Once sin is out in the world, it’s like that butterfly breeze - it can go anywhere, and it can do anything - any kind of damage. Terrible things. Things we never wanted, or intended.

But God allows it (doesn’t cause it - we cause it, by committing sins), so that we will eventually come to understand why it is that we ought not to commit sin.

 

[stadre]

Sorry to see that you’ve completely missed my point. What I said was that God performs abortions all the time. As you’ve so astutely noted, an embryo is a living organism with the potential to turn into a human. When God causes embryos to become detached from the uterine wall, he performs abortions.

You need to reread what you quoted. What you quoted did not say potential to turn into a human. The human embryo is a human.

 

[tamccrackine]

Sorry to see that you’ve completely missed my point. What I said was that God performs abortions all the time. As you’ve so astutely noted, an embryo is a living organism with the potential to turn into a human. When God causes embryos to become detached from the uterine wall, he performs abortions.

While I can see where you’re going with this, I have to add that a human embryo is just that. A human at the embrionic stage. Its DNA is human, not chicken, not dog, not cat… human. So there is no “potential to become human” in this equation… .it’s already human.

And yes, God causes embryos to spontaneously abort but what God does versus what a woman does are two totally different things and you cannot equalize the two. God is bringing about greater good, either through her suffering of that loss, or because there was something about that embryo that God knew wouldn’t allow that child to survive. A woman that causes an abortion through use of the pill or other ABC’s or obtains an actual abortion, isn’t bringing about greater good or the baby spontaneously aborts due to knowledge that the baby wouldn’t survive. She’s aborting (again, whether from ABC’s or an actual abortion) due to lifestyle. Something of HER choosing, not God’s.

I’ve suffered through both kinds of “abortion.” My own and one from God. Trust me when I say the one I caused is so much more painful and guilt ridden than the one God caused. I can so easily accept the one that God caused as “It’s His plan, He knows what’s going on, I need to trust Him.” and that, my friend, is so much easier to digest, comprehend and accept than the one I did. There’s not enough time to explain the downward spiral, the depression, the psychotic behavior I engaged in, the self destruction… had you given me a gun after the abortion I caused, I could have (and without hesitation) shot myself easily.

But you’re right, God does cause abortions all the time. I guess I’m reading that you think that what God does and what a woman does by using ABC (or getting an actual abortion) is as simple as saying “God does it all the time.” and so you’re asking “what’s the difference.”

I apologize if I’ve missed something. I have been following this thread for days now, so I really do apologize if I’ve missed your point. But i just wanted to add my thoughts because I know God does cause abortions, but it’s not the same as when He does it versus when a human does something to cause it.