I'm in a whole lot of pain right now - Fiancée working at PP

[decn2b]

Hmm… I’ve been married 16 years, we don’t use contraceptives and I have one child. .

If you had used the pill statistics tell us that you would have aborted approximately 6 children via chemical abortion during those 16 years. That would be 6 holy innocents crying out for justice. 6 human beings who would have died whos blood would have been on your hands. GOD BLESS YOU FOR USING NFP.

 

[Imagine23]

Hmm… I’ve been married 16 years, we don’t use contraceptives and I have one child. Had no problem getting pregnant, in fact the first month we tried I got pregnant. Contraceptives are the worst posible choice for limiting family size when there is reason to do so. And if you Catholic it’s not a choice at all. NFP works, it’s scientific,it’s healthier for your body -and it is accepted by the church, when their is serious reason to avoid pregnancy.

What uninformed, misled or dissenting Catholics do is not a reflection of what the church teaches. We don’t decide what is morally right or wrong by popular opinion or statistics. Didn’t your mother ever say to you “Well if all your friends were jumping off a bridge would you do it too?”

I realize by your comment you problem have no real understanding what NFP is or how it works. You also probably don’t really know the church teaching on using contraceptives. I didn’t either, as a young adult. Artificial birth control is forbidden, using it to prevent pregnancy while knowing what the church teaches about it is a mortal sin. Any Catholic who uses it neads to refrain from recieving communion until they’ve stopped and been to confession.

Your opinion or the opinion of other Catholics who disregard the teaching doesn’t change the fact that is wrong.

Please help me understand, what is “morally” wrong about a male putting a piece of rubber on his apparatus to prevent pregnancy. My morals are guided by the effects actions have on others, whether harm in some way is caused to others. I don’t see harm in using a condom. Please enlighten me.

Excuse my ignorance, what is NFP?

 

[Imagine23]

!!!

Oh myyyy!!! I must be falling into the Twilight Zone again!!!

twilight zone theme starts to play out of nowhere:bigyikes:
goear.com/listen.php?v=9323ebb

Now, seriously… I hope you don’t go around claiming to be a “devout” Catholic because that’d be MERE HYPOCRISY! And an AWFUL example of what a good Catholic should be!
I don’t wanna sound mean, but geez, people! Didn’t you know that Catholics can’t support abortion???
That’s what contraception is!

I think you should re-consider if this is really the religion you want to follow, because OBVIOUSLY you’re not in the same page with God…
You’re in time to CHANGE, to go to confession, to REPENT for all those murdered babies…
If you want to be a good Catholic, those are the 1st steps I think…

Wow, so I guess the rules on this forum are that if you’re ranting against abortion you can call someone a murderer even where wholly unjustified. Talk about uncharitable. You should be banned.

Do you know what contraceptives are? They PREVENT conception. There is no embryo, nothing to “murder.”

I have nothing to confess. I appreciate you not referring to me as a murdered.

 

[Gamera]

Please help me understand, what is “morally” wrong about a male putting a piece of rubber on his apparatus to prevent pregnancy. My morals are guided by the effects actions have on others, whether harm in some way is caused to others. I don’t see harm in using a condom. Please enlighten me.

Excuse my ignorance, what is NFP?

Artificial contraception (as opposed to Natural Family Planning or NFP) is inherently sinful because it intentionally thwart’s God’s plan for sex — namely, that the unitive and procreative aspects of sex remain undivided.

 

[Imagine23]

Chances are you have procured an abortion of some of your potential 20 children. The math tells me that IF you would have a few dozen children the you would be married for around 25 years. Based on average of 12 monthly cycles per year you marriage has had around 300 potential fertility cycles. Oral contraceptives have a 3% abortifacient effect…meaning 3 out of ever 100 cycles the contraceptive actually aborted a child after conception. This is noted as one of the post-fertilization benfits of oral contraceptives by members of “the culture of death” Meaning in a nutshell if the pill failed to prevent ovulation it will succed in preventing pregnancy post fertilization by making the uterine enviornment hostile to the newly created human through chemical abortion. Now doing the math…during the course of 300 potential fertility cycles statistics tell us that the lives of 9 children have been snuffed out. That would be nearly half of the 20 children you say you couldn’t afford.

Ok. You’ve explained yourself better than the other poster that just called me a murderer. I see what you’re talking about. I was thinking of condoms which acutally don’t abort post-conception.

In any event, we have to acknowledge that many natural pregnancies spontaneously abort without the interference of artificial drugs. You would have to interpret this phenomenon as being an act of God, which would make God an abortionist. I know this sounds awful, but it logically flows. Why is it so much worse if a human caused an abortion as opposed to God, especially when he mandated that we have free will?

 

[Imagine23]

Artificial contraception (as opposed to Natural Family Planning or NFP) is inherently sinful because it intentionally thwart’s God’s pla for sex — namely, that the unitive and procreative aspects of sex remain undivided.

Please explain NFP then. I don’t know what that is.

 

[4HisChurch]

Please explain NFP then. I don’t know what that is.

Basically, Natural Family Planning is a drug and barrier free method for determining the woman’s fertility (which is only about 100-120 hours per month) using temperature, mucus, and cervical changes. If a couple is trying to get pregnant, NFP can help them determine when that is most likely to occur. To avoid pregnancy, couples avoid intimacy on the days when a woman is most likely to conceive. There are various, scientifically proven methods, using the three fertility signs alone, and in combination.

 

[decn2b]

Ok. .

In any event, we have to acknowledge that many natural pregnancies spontaneously abort without the interference of artificial drugs. You would have to interpret this phenomenon as being an act of God, which would make God an abortionist. I know this sounds awful, but it logically flows. Why is it so much worse if a human caused an abortion as opposed to God, especially when he mandated that we have free will?

Huh?
Am I correct to think that you believe that only choices made with free will are sinless. You do have the free will to blow somones head off with a shotgun. Just becuase it is free will doen’t mean its not evil.

I am having trouble getting a handle on your understanding of how events like spontaneous abortion relate to mankind an our relationship wth God

Can I ask you a question? If you will,could you explain to me breifly your understanding of the fall of man and the effects of original sin?
Then I think we can continue the discussion.

I will warn you though, the authority to determine whether condom use is OK or not does not lie within the individual. IF that were the case then there would be 6 billion different variations as to whether it is OK or not. ( assuming the population of the world is 6 billion) If you beleive that it does lie withing the individual then you are a relativist. It is impossible to be a relativsit and a Catholic. Actually it is impossible to be a relativist.

A Catholic is BOUND to believe in the authority of the church on ALL matters. If one denies ONE truth they are pulling the pin on the handgrenade of deconstructionalism.

with this in mind If we cannot associate our understandings on Salvation History…then we will just end up hollering at each other.

 

[rayne89]

Please help me understand, what is “morally” wrong about a male putting a piece of rubber on his apparatus to prevent pregnancy. My morals are guided by the effects actions have on others, whether harm in some way is caused to others. I don’t see harm in using a condom. Please enlighten me.

Excuse my ignorance, what is NFP?

Gamera explained why using a any type of contraceptive is wrong so I probably don’t need to add to that.

NFP is Natural Family Planning. I use the Sympto-Thermal method which means I take my temp (orally)with a basal thermomter. I record my temp each day. It takes about two minutes before I get out bed in the morning. I cross check my temps with other physical signs which you probably would find to be TMI right now. When I ovulate my temp goes up at least .3 degrees. When it stays .3 degrees or above for three days I know my egg is no longer viable and it’s safe to have sex without getting pregnant. I can continue to do so until about day six of my new cycle. By recording my temps and other signs I know my pattern of ovulation. Because I have very serious health risks associated with getting pregnant again I chose to be more conservative with the cut off date. It gives me a ten day safety net incase I should ovulate a few days earlier than usual. Other signs would also clue me in incase I’m having an abnormal cycle.

Now this all sounds very unromantic, technical and non-spontanious. But truthfully there is nothing spontanious or romantic about having sex with a peice of latex between me and my husband. And I’m not putting chemical hormones into my body. We have a great intimate life. And sometimes having to wait a few days kind of increases the romantic tension and electricty between us. Most of my friends are not Catholic and contracept in one form or another. I’m the only one who doesn’t complain about intimacy issues.

In the very beginning of my marriage I did contracept (I did not know the church teaching) so I know what it’s like to be on the side side of this issue. Things are so much better without artificial contraception in so many ways.

 

[decn2b]

Huh?
Am I correct to think that you believe that only choices made with free will are sinless. You do have the free will to blow somones head off with a shotgun. Just becuase it is free will doen’t mean its not evil.

I am having trouble getting a handle on your understanding of how events like spontaneous abortion relate to mankind an our relationship wth God

Can I ask you a question? If you will,could you explain to me breifly your understanding of the fall of man and the effects of original sin?
Then I think we can continue the discussion.

I will warn you though, the authority to determine whether condom use is OK or not does not lie within the individual. IF that were the case then there would be 6 billion different variations as to whether it is OK or not. ( assuming the population of the world is 6 billion) If you beleive that it does lie withing the individual then you are a relativist. It is impossible to be a relativsit and a Catholic. Actually it is impossible to be a relativist.

A Catholic is BOUND to believe in the authority of the church on ALL moral dogmas. If one denies ONE dogma they are pulling the pin on the handgrenade of deconstructionalism.

with this in mind If we cannot associate our understandings on Salvation History…then we will just end up hollering at each other.

 

[decn2b]

The interesting thing is the argument has two approaches. Those of us who accept what the church teaches and out of this acceptance we seek to find out just WHY the church teaches this way which leads us to all the more understanding of God. Then there are those who argue on the matter to defend their consciences. Those who fail to seek out the WHY, fail to do so becuase of the obvious judgement they place on themselves when they acknowledge that they are wrong. I have been on the other side of the argument. I fought and fought slowly realizing that deep down inside I could not silence the voice that seemed to get louder and louder I tried to rebel. But finally I accepted the truth and lo and behold I was set free.

 

[jmcrae]

Please explain NFP then. I don’t know what that is.

NFP stands for Natural Family Planning. There are a variety of methods of natural family planning, but the basic idea of it is that, using scientific methods (which are described in detail in the training sessions and in the books), the couple determines their fertile times - that is, the 1-3 days of the month when the woman could get pregnant. (Note that this is not the “calendar” method, aka the “rhythm method.”)

If they are choosing in favour of pregnancy that month, they will have sex on those days, and also any other time that they want to. If they are choosing not to get pregnant, then they can have sex on any days except for those days. If they want to be absolutely certain, they will also abstain from sex two or three days before, and two or three days after.

The best way to begin with Natural Family Planning is for the woman to begin charting her menstrual cycles during the engagement period before the wedding takes place, so that she is familiar with what her “signs” look/feel like, and has an idea of how her cycle goes, so that she can make accurate predictions from month to month.

 

[jmcrae]

Please help me understand, what is “morally” wrong about a male putting a piece of rubber on his apparatus to prevent pregnancy.

The reason it’s wrong is because it separates the man from the woman at precisely the moment when they are supposed to be completely joined to one another, thus disrupting both the unitive and the procreative functions of the sex act, and thus, missing the point of it completely.

 

[Imagine23]

NFP stands for Natural Family Planning. There are a variety of methods of natural family planning, but the basic idea of it is that, using scientific methods (which are described in detail in the training sessions and in the books), the couple determines their fertile times - that is, the 1-3 days of the month when the woman could get pregnant. (Note that this is not the “calendar” method, aka the “rhythm method.”)

If they are choosing in favour of pregnancy that month, they will have sex on those days, and also any other time that they want to. If they are choosing not to get pregnant, then they can have sex on any days except for those days. If they want to be absolutely certain, they will also abstain from sex two or three days before, and two or three days after.

The best way to begin with Natural Family Planning is for the woman to begin charting her menstrual cycles during the engagement period before the wedding takes place, so that she is familiar with what her “signs” look/feel like, and has an idea of how her cycle goes, so that she can make accurate predictions from month to month.

If it makes you feel better to give it a different name, then that’s fine. It’s still timing around ovulation just like the “calendar” method.

I don’t see why this would be acceptable. You’re intentionally timing sex solely for the purpose of pleasure while minimizing the possibility of pregnancy, the purpose of sex.

I fail to see why this is different that using a condom.

 

[Imagine23]

Gamera explained why using a any type of contraceptive is wrong so I probably don’t need to add to that.

NFP is Natural Family Planning. I use the Sympto-Thermal method which means I take my temp (orally)with a basal thermomter. I record my temp each day. It takes about two minutes before I get out bed in the morning. I cross check my temps with other physical signs which you probably would find to be TMI right now. When I ovulate my temp goes up at least .3 degrees. When it stays .3 degrees or above for three days I know my egg is no longer viable and it’s safe to have sex without getting pregnant. I can continue to do so until about day six of my new cycle. By recording my temps and other signs I know my pattern of ovulation. Because I have very serious health risks associated with getting pregnant again I chose to be more conservative with the cut off date. It gives me a ten day safety net incase I should ovulate a few days earlier than usual. Other signs would also clue me in incase I’m having an abnormal cycle.

Now this all sounds very unromantic, technical and non-spontanious. But truthfully there is nothing spontanious or romantic about having sex with a peice of latex between me and my husband. And I’m not putting chemical hormones into my body. We have a great intimate life. And sometimes having to wait a few days kind of increases the romantic tension and electricty between us. Most of my friends are not Catholic and contracept in one form or another. I’m the only one who doesn’t complain about intimacy issues.

In the very beginning of my marriage I did contracept (I did not know the church teaching) so I know what it’s like to be on the side side of this issue. Things are so much better without artificial contraception in so many ways.

Many people think it’s sinful to have sex for the purpose of pleasure and not procreation.

 

[Jennifer123]

Many people think it’s sinful to have sex for the purpose of pleasure and not procreation.

Since you are on a Catholic forum, and most of us hold to Church teaching on the subject, a lot of us believe it is indeed sinful to have sex outside of marriage for the sole purpose of pleasure.

BTW - to answer an earlier point of yours, contraceptives are “abortifacients” meaning they allow an fertilized egg, an embryo, a human being, from implanting in the uterus, facilitating a chemically-induced abortion.

 

[Jennifer123]

If it makes you feel better to give it a different name, then that’s fine. It’s still timing around ovulation just like the “calendar” method.

I don’t see why this would be acceptable. You’re intentionally timing sex solely for the purpose of pleasure while minimizing the possibility of pregnancy, the purpose of sex.

I fail to see why this is different that using a condom.

The difference is that the couple is working with God to implement His grace, allowing for the possibility of life to be created.
Condoms (and other BC) completely stop the cooperation with God’s grace and don’t allow for the creation of life.

 

[jc-servant]

I would like to offer a book suggestion to the OP that is great for explaining how to discern God’s will in finding our vocation (and in making other decisions) and in finding the right spouse for marriage if we are indeed called to the vocation of marriage (as opposed to single or religious life).

The Exclamation: the wise choice of spouse for Catholic marriage by Patricia Wrona

(You can find it on amazon.com by just typing “the exclamation” under the books section.)

I have used this book to aid in making many life decisions, not just relationships because it starts out by teaching about general discernment of God’s will for our lives. It moves on to specific discernment when you think you may have found someone suitable for courtship and possible marriage. It then talks about doing mutual discernment with the other person once the initial individual discernement and later courtship merits it.

It can help the OP to evaluate his options in the current situation with an eye to God’s will rather than his own “feelings.” It does talk about what a faithful Catholic needs in a marriage partner as compared to what secular society teaches about the romance, beauty, wealth, etc that we are supposed to pursue while ignoring, compatibility, values and morals. It can also provide a valuable tool for future life decisions including where to live and work, etc.

I’m sorry that the OP did not have good guidance before getting into this situation with such strong feelings involved. It can be hard to disengage from someone we think that we love, but I have found after a break up that I was “in love” with who I wanted the person to be rather than who they actually were. It can be hard to accept that the person we “loved” was really a fantasy or facade and not who was standing before us. I have made a near escape from men who I can now see would have made a disatrous husband for me.

I pray that the OP will be able to look true discernment and see this woman as she actually is instead of the fantasy and move on. True love involves sacrifice for the other person in a way that is meant to help them grow in holiness. It does not lead either person into sin which is what trying to get the OP to accept pro-abortion activities/beliefs would be.

There are 1000’s of wonderful, attractive faithful Catholic women available. It may take a little more effort to find one than just going to the local club or asking out a woman from a class because she looks cute.

 

[jmcrae]

If it makes you feel better to give it a different name, then that’s fine. It’s still timing around ovulation just like the “calendar” method.

The difference is that they aren’t guessing when the ovulation is going to take place. They know when it’s taking place, because they know the signs.

On the calendar method, people were being asked to assume that they had regular cycles, and that they would ovulate exactly in the middle of their cycle.

With modern methods of Natural Family Planning, they can know when they are ovulating even if this month is completely different than every other month. Of course, if they’ve been having sex the previous three days, there is a 5% chance of pregnancy on that day - but if they avoid sex that day and for a few days following, they will still be doing better than a condom (which I think gives an 8% chance of pregnancy on the day of ovulation). And if their cycles are regular enough to predict, as most women’s are, then they can avoid pregnancy with 100% accuracy, which is better than anything artificial that’s on the market today. (As Scottish Protestants, this is what originally sold us on NFP - I didn’t become Catholic until much later.)

I don’t see why this would be acceptable. You’re intentionally timing sex solely for the purpose of pleasure while minimizing the possibility of pregnancy, the purpose of sex.

First, sex has two purposes: procreation, and unity. NFP helps to avoid pregnancy when that’s needed, while not interfering with the unitive aspect.

I fail to see why this is different that using a condom.

A condom interferes with both the unitive and the procreative aspects. It’s the condom that is receiving your hormones of joy and the chemistry of your most intimate self; not the woman. And you’re not receiving anything back from her, chemically or hormonally speaking, either - it’s being blocked by the condom.

 

[bunnynessuk]

Just a quick note on the ‘Pro-ABC- Pro Abortion’ catholic, ABC’s may well work 98% of the time to prevent pregnancy but aside from condoms the hormonal pills, injections etc are actually far more harmful to the taker than simply stopping pregnancy - if/when I am blessed with children and should I have a daughter I will certainly be telling her not only of the ‘murderous’ side of ABC but also of the increased risk of ovarian, breast and cervical cancer, the problems they can cause with fertility later on, the period problems they can cause, the mental and emotional problems they can cause after prolonged use, and the many other things which such pills can cause. By using ABC’s you are putting hormones into your body which naturally shouldn’t be there and ultimatley that is going to cause some problems.

I have so many gynae problems its unbelievable and the only method of treatment my doctors will reccomend is ABC’s and I will refuse them until the cows come home and I am still unmarried and thus staying away from the marital act.