I'm LDS....let's learn from eachother.....

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Does anyone remember that band back in the late '80s named “Living Colour”?

They did a song titled "Cult of Personality"

Anyone heard of that before? “Cult of Personality”?

Just Curious.
 
Not so obvious to others, I’m afraid. Most of the time it comes from someone saying something like, “Oh read the Bible for yourself.” Day 1, they see the Eucharist clearly explained, Day 2, they attend a Bible Study and are told something like, “Oh, that’s not what Jesus meant,”; “Um, it’s right here, though. Smack in the gospels, and Corinthians. What else should I think?”; “It’s symbolic. It’s not meant to be literal.”; “But don’t you take the Bible literally? Isn’t everything in it supposed to have actually happened and be true? Adam is just as real as the Body and Blood or Christ?”; “Well, um, yeah. The pastor can explain it better on Sunday, in his sermon.”

And at that point it all becomes hazy, because your reading says one thing, the Bible Study another, and the pastor is going to push his own ideas. It never really gets explained, it actually gets put off, “See me after services, young man.” But the next Sunday, the mention of it makes you reiterate you point publicly, like at any lecture, you want clarification on the differences. But then you’re approached by one of the ushers or elders, told that’s for after services, and you never get a straight answer.

But Catholics are taught the straight answer, don’t take all the Bible at face value and be careful what you interpret for your own needs, the Church has the last word, not you. So, on the Eucharist, the other sacraments, we know what they say at other churches, whether Protestant or Mormon or JW or whatever; we just leave it up to the Magisterium to make good on the fact that, after almost two thousand years of contemplation on these matters, they have a better insight to the Holy Spirit than any one person, pastor, elder, layman, whomever. The Bible is actually the last word only on specific matters, not the whole cookie (forgive that little allusion but it is apt for the ideal). The Church, which wrote and edited, and passed on the New Testament, is the only arbiter of what scripture means (1 Tim. 3:16).
 
zerinus said:
Now how does that make the Mormon faith “interesting”? 😉

Because the Mormons claim to have put together a book. How do you know if the book of mormon is inspired by God?

No. Mormonism got its scriptures from the same source that yours came from—revelation from God.

But the Gospels were lived out witnesses and testimonies to the eye witness account of Jesus who walked the earth. How does that compare to you getting your revelation from God?

That is how your Priesthood originally came from; but along the way it was lost through the Apostasy, and is no longer valid or acknowledged by the Lord.

**Can you tell me the date and why the Roman Catholic church lost their priesthood through Apostasy?

Can you please explain to me how is it you know the Roman Catholic Priesthood is no longer acknowledged by the Lord, when Jesus promised to be with his church for all ages?**

By revelation and ministration of angels from God, by the laying on of hands of the ancient Apostles.

Can you name these angels?
Can you name which Apostles layed hands on your Mormon founder?

Mormonism is a Restoration of the original Church of Christ in the latter days, after the original one had apostatized. It was officially organized in April 1830, by the Prophet Joseph Smith, at the commandment of the Lord.

**So if you know of an original church before mormonism, can you give me its name? and why and when it went into apostasy?

So your Mormonism faith was officially oraganized in April 1830 by a Man name Joseph Smith, Where was the Church Jesus promised to be with at all times between the acclaimed apostasy and your official start date of Mormonism?

Is Joseph Smith a self proclaimed prophet? or did the divine appoint him, please reveal the divinity’s name?**

Those “keys of the kingdom” were lost to the Catholic Church following the Apostasy, and have now been restored by revelation and ministration of angels to the LDS Church.

**Can you tell me what these keys look like, or reveal what the keys you recieved by an angel do?

How do you know for certain that the Keys of the kingdom were lost to the Catholic church following this Apostasy?**

To speak and act with authority from God, and to administer the saving sacraments of the gospel for the salvation of mankind.

**Do you have an infallible teacher also, because the Catholic Church does to?

Can you name all the sacraments your mormonism administers?**

Yes.

**Do you consume the body and blood of Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus is truly present in the species of bread and wine?

Does your priesthood consecrate the bread and wine? if so, what is the formula that Jesus gave to the apostles?

Do you consider the bread and wine to be a sacrament?

Do you truly drink wine? or apple or grape juice?**

By His Spirit, as taught in the scriptures:

If Jesus is truly present in your church by his Spirit, do you see him in his body, blood, soul and divinity? Just like the apostles did after the resurrection?

A lot less than Catholic doctrine has changed.

**Oh, so you know of a Catholic doctrine that has changed? Can you reveal this to me please?
Please answer these accusations if you are going to air them ok, I have no problem about your accusatioins, but please be ready to give an answer, or else dont make the accusations please.

So Mormonism has a changed Doctrine, can you tell me what that was that changed?**

First off, we believe in the same predictions as are in the Bible, since the Bible is part of the scriptural canon of the LDS Church. Second, there are also predictions about the end time mentioned in modern LDS scripture, and you will find them mostly the Doctrine and Covenants; although there are also some in the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price. Third, they have not yet all been fulfilled, because we have not reached the “end” yet; but as many of them as relate to our time have been fulfilled.

Can you give me one prediction the Mormon faith made that came to pass?

Yes, we believe that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus Christ.

**Do you believe the Virgin Mary is in heaven with her Son Jesus, and remained a Vrigin after giving birth to Jesus?

Do you consider yourself one of her offspring?**

Well, I haven’t seen them in heaven yet, if that is what you are asking; 🙂 but I am sure as many of them have been righteous are now in heaven.

Now that you claim your priesthood,or mormon faith was given the keys to the kingdom of God. Can you tell me any of their names that are in heaven? And what are they doing there?

COLOR=“darkred”]Didn’t understand that. Please clarify.
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Do you believe that the Mormon faith was taught in the first century apostles who layed hands on your leader to be their successor? And if this is true, can you name the first century Mormon?
 
RC_Matt said:
Nope, it was Jospeh Smith, Jr., the Prophet, who said that. Brigham Young said:

“The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the
inhabitants of the earth, being six feet in height. They dress very much
like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or fashion of
dress. They live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years.
This is the description of them as given by Joseph [Smith] the Seer, and
he could see whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see”

If you check the JoD, you’ll also see that Brigham Young claimed that the sun is inhabited too.
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i think it is important to be fair, and according to my reading this attribution to J. Smith Jr is very thinly documented. It comes from a diary entry from 1881 from a person named (as i recall) Oliver Huntington who recieved his partriarchal blessing from J. Smith SR who was the church partriarch at that time. I have materials here in my bookshelf that discuss this, but no time now to dig for details, a bweb search should show you some detail. Smith SR told Huntingtin that before he was 21 he would preach the gospel on the moon and the earth, as i recall the exact words given in the blessing could be interpreted to be for emphasis rather than taken as a literal prophecy or as a statement of scientific fact.

i also must say that belief in life on the moon and sun were common in 19th century. I grew uup in the 1950s and 60s and can remember asa boy wondering whether there was life on the moon, as did many others, which was reflected as a theme in many scifi movies and books of that era. i really don’t think it is fair to hang this type of thing around Smith or even young unless the full context of the sermon or speech is given so as to know how these statements were bieing interpreted at the time they were delivered.
 
That’s true. The moon was just as much a planet to the ancients as Jupiter or Saturn. And, to be fair, it was only with the Apollo moon shots that we discovered the truth of its blotchy and finely sanded surface.
 
TemplarKnight said:
Does anyone remember that band back in the late '80s named “Living Colour”?

They did a song titled “Cult of Personality”

Anyone heard of that before? "Cult of Personality"?

Just Curious.
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Yep I remember Living Color and that song! The guys in the band were all Harvard Graduates!
 
Dymphna2008 said:
Well, I like my Irish Cream too much to become Mormon. Besides, I’m not necessarily the best Catholic example, either.

Back in a few minutes, have to grind some beans.:heaven:
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Dymphna – I like Irish Cream too a bit too much to become LDS. I also like Guiness (or just about any beer) a bit too much too.

Kathy
 
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zerinus:
Does your faith community partake of the wine and bread as Jesus instructed at the last supper?
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Yes.
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Actually, they do not. I don’t know why Z would say they drink wine at communion when he knows better. They consume water, not wine, from little plastic cups. Joseph Smith said that what they use for the Lord’s Supper is not important.

So the answer is no, they do not follow what Jesus did at the last supper.

Paul
 
J_C said:
i think it is imp[ortant to be fair, and according to my reading this attribution to J. Smith Jr is very thinly documented. It comes from a diary entry from 1881 from a person named (as i recall) Oliver Huntington who recieved his partriarchal blessing from J. Smith SR who was the church partriarch at that time. I have materials here in my bookshelf that discuss this, but no time now to dig for details, a bweb search should show you some detail. Smith SR told Huntingtin that before he was 21 he would preach the gospel on the moon and the earth, as i recall the exact words given in the blessing could be interpreted to be for emphasis rather than taken as a literal prophecy or as a statement of scientific fact.

i also must say that belief in life on the moon and sun were common in 19th century. I grew uup in the 1950s and 60s and can remember asa boy wondering whether there was life on the moon, as did many others, which was reflected as a theme in many scifi movies and books of that era. i really don’t think it is fair to hang this type of thing around Smith or even young unless the full context of the sermon or speech is given so as to know how these statements were bieing interpreted at the time they were delivered.
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Here’s the 1897 quote from Oliver Huntington that you are referring to:

“Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do – that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.”

He specifically quotes Joseph Smith, the prophet; the mention of Smith Sr. is incidental.

The quote I provided earlier, which specifically refers to Joseph the SEER, came from Huntington’s journal in 1881. I read somewhere that he was quoting Brigham Young, but I found the journal on-line, read it myself, and he was referring directly to Smith, Jr.

In 1870, the prophet and seer Brigham Young said:

“Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the Moon? When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question about it; it was not made in vain".
“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture.”

What other people may have thought at the time is irrelevant. The point is that these guys were supposed to be “seers” and “prophets,” but it kinda looks like the objective was more like “seeing profits.”
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i think we’ are on the same page on this, I don’t have any problem imagining J.Smith Jr saying these things, but apparently Huntington is the only source for this, unless anyone knows of another. The patriarchal blessing was given by J.Smith Sr the prophet’s father. Again, there doesn’t seem to be any other persons anywhere any time reporting this, and that is what I mean when I say it is thin.

Also prophets don’t necessarily need to be scientificaly accurate. Like the bible is full of prophesy but an awful lot of it defies scientific reality, such as Jonah living 3 days in the belly of a fish, which probably isn’t possible from a striclty natural point of view, but that doesn’t negate the meaning of the prophecy at all.

i realize i may see m to be defending the mormans here, but in my few months of reading about their religion I have noticed a lot of misrepresentation of historical facts and figures which I don’t think is conducive to arguments against that religion. not saying you are stretching things, not at all, i am merely offering up a reasonable explaination for what many think is harebrained statements by morman leaders. yes they made harebrained statements but i’ll bet that if you were to read the entire sermon in which those statements are immbedded you would find a softer meaning. personally i have no bone to pick with the mormans that i don’t also pick with the protestants and other groups in separation, I am learning about them because a few have come close to me lately and I want to know why they are what they are. they seem like really nice folk to me and I want to treat them with respect rather than demean their beliefs or the reputations of their leaders.
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Because the Mormons claim to have put together a book. How do you know if the book of mormon is inspired by God?
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Because the Spirit of God witnesses to us that it is true.

But the Gospels were lived out witnesses and testimonies to the eye witness account of Jesus who walked the earth. How does that compare to you getting your revelation from God?

The process was the same. There was no difference. The Book of Mormon also contains “lived out witnesses and testimonies to the eye witness account of Jesus who walked the earth”.

**Can you tell me the date and why the Roman Catholic church lost their priesthood through Apostasy? **

The authority was lost when the last Apostle died, or ceased to minister to the church. I will accept whatever date you want to put on that.

Can you please explain to me how is it you know the Roman Catholic Priesthood is no longer acknowledged by the Lord, when Jesus promised to be with his church for all ages?

It is no longer acknowledged because it is apostate and has lost the authority that it once possessed. Jesus has been “with His church for all ages”. Although the priesthood authority was lost, there have been many faithful, believing Christians in the world whom God would acknowledge as His people (which constitute “His church” in the non-institutionalized sense). The propose of this Restoration has been to gather those faithful Christians to the fold of the true institutionalized Church with the fullness of the priesthood in it, which is retroactive in being able to administer the sacraments not only for the living but also for the dead, meaning for those who have lived in the days of the Apostasy.

Can you name these angels?
Can you name which Apostles laid hands on your Mormon founder?

Yes. First John the Baptist appeared (as a resurrected being) to them, and ordained them to the Aaronic Priesthood, with the ability to baptize for the remission of sins. After that Peter, James, and John, the ancient Apostles (also resurrected beings) appeared to them, and ordained them to the Apostleship, which has the authority to lay on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and perform other necessary sacraments.

So if you know of an original church before mormonism, can you give me its name? and why and when it went into apostasy?

The most frequent name given to it in the Bible is the “church of God;” but also “church of Christ,” “church of the Saints,” and “church of the firstborn”. Here are some refs you can look up if you are interested: Acts 20:28; Romans 16:16; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:16, 22; 14:33; 15:9; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Galatians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:14; 2 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 3:5, 15; Hebrews 12:23.

It went into apostasy mainly because of the wickedness of the people. The time, as I already mentioned, was when the last Apostle died, or his ministry was taken from the church.

So your Mormonism faith was officially oraganized in April 1830 by a Man name Joseph Smith, Where was the Church Jesus promised to be with at all times between the acclaimed apostasy and your official start date of Mormonism?

I think I have already answered that question above.

Is Joseph Smith a self proclaimed prophet?

No.

or did the divine appoint him, please reveal the divinity’s name?

The name of the divinity that appointed him is God, or whatever name you want to pick for Him out of the Bible. The Bible uses several names for God. I will accept whichever one you choose.

Can you tell me what these keys look like, or reveal what the keys you recieved by an angel do?

The “keys” is a figurative expression, and refers to the specific powers delegated to those who, by virtue of their priesthood, are called to serve in various positions of authority to administer in the affairs of the Church. A bishop, for example, holds the keys that enables him to function in the bishop’s office, and perform all the duties pertaining to it. He does not hold the keys that belong to some other office in the Church, such as that of an Apostle.

How do you know for certain that the Keys of the kingdom were lost to the Catholic church following this Apostasy?

Because that is what we mean by the Apostasy. That is how “Apostasy” is defined.

zerinus

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/. . . Continued

Do you have an infallible teacher also, because the Catholic Church does to?

Yes, we have an infallible teacher; and his infallibility is defined more or less in similar terms to that of the Pope.

Can you name all the sacraments your mormonism administers?

Yes, we have all the seven sacraments that the Catholic Church acknowledges (although we may use different terminologies to refer to them or define them), and several additional sacraments for good measure! 🙂

Do you consume the body and blood of Jesus?

Not physically! But spiritually yes.

Do you believe that Jesus is truly present in the species of bread and wine?

Present in the spirit yes, but not physically. We disagree with the Catholic Church on that issue.

Does your priesthood consecrate the bread and wine? if so, what is the formula that Jesus gave to the apostles?

Yes we do. The formula used is that given by revelation in modern LDS scripture. The sacramental formula for the bread, for example, is as follows:

“O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he has given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.” (D&C 20:77.)

Do you consider the bread and wine to be a sacrament?

Yes.

Do you truly drink wine? or apple or grape juice?

We have no objection to drinking wine. However, because of the circumstances that prevailed in the early days of the Church, God commanded them that “it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory . . .” (D&C 27:2.) So we currently use water instead of wine. But there is nothing wrong in taking wine either.

If Jesus is truly present in your church by his Spirit, do you see him in his body, blood, soul and divinity? Just like the apostles did after the resurrection?

If you mean seeing Him physically, there are some who have seen Him physically, Joseph Smith being one that did. But that is a privilege that is granted to a few. The rest of Church members feel His presence by the power of His Spirit in their midst. So yes, we do.

Oh, so you know of a Catholic doctrine that has changed? Can you reveal this to me please?
Please answer these accusations if you are going to air them ok, I have no problem about your accusatioins, but please be ready to give an answer, or else dont make the accusations please.

I have discussed this subject before on this board. If I get a chance maybe I will search them out and find them for you. But to be brief, the Catechism of the Catholic Church has changed. The current Catechism was revised and redrafted by the Council of Trent. There are changes to it compared to its predecessor. One of the doctrines that has changed is that the early RCC taught that children who die in infancy without baptism go to hell, iredeemably. That has been revised sever times until it has reached the current form that is more politically acceptable to modern way of thinking.

So Mormonism has a changed Doctrine, can you tell me what that was that changed?

Actually, no; Mormon doctrine hasn’t changed. I said what I said in order to make a point.

Can you give me one prediction the Mormon faith made that came to pass?

Yes. One of them is a prediction of the American civil war, which was given in Section 87 of the Doctrine and Covenats:

“For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.” (D&C 87:3.)

zerinus

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/. . . Continued

Do you believe the Virgin Mary is in heaven with her Son Jesus, and remained a Vrigin after giving birth to Jesus?

We certainly believe that Mary is now in heaven; but I don’t accept that she remained a virgin to the end of her life. The Bible tells a different story.

Do you consider yourself one of her offspring?

No!

Now that you claim your priesthood, or mormon faith was given the keys to the kingdom of God. Can you tell me any of their names that are in heaven? And what are they doing there?

I did not understand that question. Whom are you referring to? The keys?

Do you believe that the Mormon faith was taught in the first century apostles who layed hands on your leader to be their successor? And if this is true, can you name the first century Mormon?

We believe that the “faith” that was taught to the first century Christians was the same as the “faith” that is taught in the LDS Church. The early Christians, however, were not called “Mormons”—and neither, for that matter, are we. The term “Mormon” is a nickname given to us by those not of our faith because of our belief in the Book of Mormon. The correct name of our Church is the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints;” just as the early church was called the “church of God,” or “church of Christ,” or “church of the saints”. The Church is the Church of Jesus Christ (in both eras). The term “Latter-day Saint” has been added to distinguish it from the “former-day saints,” meaning those that lived in the days of the Apostles.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
/

Do you believe that the Mormon faith was taught in the first century apostles who layed hands on your leader to be their successor? And if this is true, can you name the first century Mormon?

We believe that the “faith” that was taught to the first century Christians was the same as the “faith” that is taught in the LDS Church. The early Christians, however, were not called “Mormons”—and neither, for that matter, are we. The term “Mormon” is a nickname given to us by those not of our faith because of our belief in the Book of Mormon. The correct name of our Church is the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints;” just as the early church was called the “church of God,” or “church of Christ,” or “church of the saints”. The Church is the Church of Jesus Christ (in both eras). The term “Latter-day Saint” has been added to distinguish it from the “former-day saints,” meaning those that lived in the days of the Apostles.

zerinus
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too bad God couldn’t remember the name of his first church. Y’all were always changing it…
 
zerinus:
you stated the following:

One of the doctrines that has changed is that the early RCC taught that children who die in infancy without baptism go to hell, iredeemably.

Bunk…

Try again… show me one… just one… DOCTRINE which the Catholic Church teaches which has changed, or which has ever been denies…

and I will become a blooming Mormon.

(That is Doctrine not discipline or practice)

.
 
Yes, flollowing these threads for a few months i think that zerinius consistently singles out this idea of limbo as example of a catholic doctrine which has been changed. it seems like it has been explained so many times he would have understood it better by now.

myabe he could find another doctrine that has changed. even if it was admissable according to his definition that limbo is a changed doctrine, which it isn’t, but for sake of arguamtent to allow it for now, that would only be one. Would there be any others besides?
 
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