I'm LDS....let's learn from eachother.....

[RebeccaJ]

Dear Rebecca,

You need to view posts with an open mind. Reread the thread and see what the catholics have said about mormonism. Dorsey is coming from a mormon perspective on what it feels to read such posts about his faith. To understand him is to understand that he values his religion as much as you value yours. Also, please read the blue that I posted from a poster’s link and then consider the judgements that have been made by the catholics here about mormons and mormonism.

I am no troll. But the catholic behavior has been less than stellar.

I don’t think you are a troll, that was for dorsey.

Did anyone say anything that is not true? What is unrighteous or evil about speaking the truth?

 

[LaMar]

Hi Paul,

I had the idea that I was going to find some of my old notes about that guy tonight, but I’m afraid I didn’t have time.

Yes, I know. Many theologians were unpopular with other theologians in their day, and the infighting among them got pretty fierce at times. There are always thinkers (and artists) that are so far ahead of the crowd that it takes the rest of us a while to catch up with them. Duns Scotus was one of those. I think he would be disappointed with your view that he could think God to be irrelevant. On the contrary, he was passionate about the need for God and the reality of God.

Strangely enough, I agree with you in an abstract way. When I read him, I interpreted the need for God as a material need, and a search for the reality of God in the pursuit of knowledge. He alluded to the evidence for God’s existence as only perceptible in how we relate to one another, and in how we care for (and study) our natural environment.

Duns Scotus was a contemporary of another guy named John the Scot

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Scotus_Eriugena

who had some similar ideas, though I know a lot less about that guy (except that his books were burned too). They were both accused of a practical Atheism by much greater minds than mine.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts as always. We could surely turn our different gleanings of all this stuff as an interesting study in heterophenomenology. Everyone reads through his or her own lens, and I’m not particularly objective!

God love you too, brother,

LaMar

 

[why_me]

Did anyone say anything that is not true? What is unrighteous or evil about speaking the truth?

Because in matters of faith, truth is relative. Mormons have their truth and catholics have their own truth. Likewise for other faiths. I think that when faith is discussed it needs to come from a perspective of understanding and dialogue and not from a perspective of ‘my’ truth. Of course mormons can have this tendency of ‘truth’ bashing too. But it is never successful in conveying understanding. The tone of the posts can be disrespectful.

When catholic posters post antimormon links with information, I usually counter with a mormon site that responds with my own take on the matter. The point being that there are two sides to the argument or discussion. Nothing is open and closed easily in discussing mormonism.

Evil because many such posts come from the spirit of contention and disrespect.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Because in matters of faith, truth is relative. Mormons have their truth and catholics have their own truth. Likewise for other faiths. I think that when faith is discussed it needs to come from a perspective of understanding and dialogue and not from a perspective of ‘my’ truth. Of course mormons can have this tendency of ‘truth’ bashing too. But it is never successful in conveying understanding. The tone of the posts can be disrespectful.

When catholic posters post antimormon links with information, I usually counter with a mormon site that responds with my own take on the matter. The point being that there are two sides to the argument or discussion. Nothing is open and closed easily in discussing mormonism.

Evil because many such posts come from the spirit of contention and disrespect.

Do you have a switch that you flip whyme? One setting is mormon and another setting for Catholic and another for agnostic? How in the world do you keep up with yourself?

You post Mormon apologetics, which has never answered any Mormon critique in a satisfactory manner. Not once. Speculations, every one of them.

And, I think you read the “evil” tone into the posts. dorsey asked for questions, he got them, and has answered only one post, and that one, he was insulting.

Though I have to say, on review of the thread I believe z-on-account-review did a fine job of showing how judgmental Mormons are.

 

[LaMar]

Because in matters of faith, truth is relative. Mormons have their truth and catholics have their own truth. Likewise for other faiths. I think that when faith is discussed it needs to come from a perspective of understanding and dialogue and not from a perspective of ‘my’ truth. Of course mormons can have this tendency of ‘truth’ bashing too. But it is never successful in conveying understanding. The tone of the posts can be disrespectful.

This is an important point. Unfortunately, some conflate history and other scientific pursuits with faith and spirituality.

I think it’s perfectly OK to point out the fallacies inherent in religious writings, while still leaving room for an honest exploration of spiritual and philosophical principles.

If Brother D. feels that this forum is inherently disrespectful, he’s welcome to visit the FAIR board, where Mormons can be found posting all the same sorts of messages (LOL!). This is actually a much more tolerant place, in my experience, in that I’ve been able to post away with the best wishes of the moderators here. Had I posted even one of the messages in this thread over there, I would surely have been banned immediately. What does that tell you?

Hey Dorsey: I grew up in St. George. Where are you from?

This is actually a pretty cool place. You can ignore time wasting posts from the people who just post to fight (the moderators will help you set it up) and you’ll end up learning a lot. I’ve learned more about Islam in the past couple of weeks than I ever have before. Stick around and enjoy it for what it’s worth.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Because in matters of faith, truth is relative.

Perhaps to Rebecca her truth is that Mormons are not Christian. If truth be relative, what is it to you?

God bless

 

[why_me]

Do you have a switch that you flip whyme? One setting is mormon and another setting for Catholic and another for agnostic? How in the world do you keep up with yourself?

You post Mormon apologetics, which has never answered any Mormon critique in a satisfactory manor. Not once. Speculations, every one of them.

And, I think you read the “evil” tone into the posts. dorsey asked for questions, he got them, and has answered only one post, and that one, he was insulting.

Though I have to say, on review of the thread I believe z-on-account-review did a fine job of showing how judgmental Mormons are.

You may be right about Dorsey. He should engage more but perhaps he feels it is no use to engage too much. My comments have nothing to do with mormon, catholic or agnostic at the moment. It just has to do with respect for another person’s belief patterns when it comes to faith or lack of faith.

Much about faith is speculation. If not so, we would not need faith. It would be absolute fact. The fact about mormonism and the lds church is that it has survived when many other sects have not. And it will continue to survive because for many the religion works well and lds people believe it to be true.

Z is now in retirement with his account under review. Or perhaps he has been banned I don’t know. He was being a little flippy in his responses and this got him in trouble. The internet is at times not a good judge of religious character or of the people who represent faiths.

 

[why_me]

Perhaps to Rebecca her truth is that Mormons are not Christian. If truth be relative, what is it to you?

God bless

Which is a relative judgement. And since that this truth is relative it needs to be handled carefully when presented. Mormons see themselves as christians. How to handle it? Do I bash them to death with the trinity? Or do I attempt to understand why they consider themselves to be christian?

The relative religoious truth is: have discussions based in mutual respect and understanding. Show love and not hate…kindness and not anger. Be respectuful and not offensive. That is my relative truth when discussing religion and religious beliefs.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

The relative religoious truth is: have discussions based in mutual respect and understanding. Show love and not hate…kindness and not anger. Be respectuful and not offensive. That is my relative truth when discussing religion and religious beliefs.

Then I suggest you follow what you preach. Understand Rebecca’s “relative truth” that Mormons are not Christian, instead of calling it evil. Where is the understanding in that? Where is the respect, the love?

God bless

 

[RebeccaJ]

You may be right about Dorsey. He should engage more but perhaps he feels it is no use to engage too much. My comments have nothing to do with mormon, catholic or agnostic at the moment. It just has to do with respect for another person’s belief patterns when it comes to faith or lack of faith.

Much about faith is speculation. If not so, we would not need faith. It would be absolute fact. The fact about mormonism and the lds church is that it has survived when many other sects have not. And it will continue to survive because for many the religion works well and lds people believe it to be true.

Z is now in retirement with his account under review. Or perhaps he has been banned I don’t know. He was being a little flippy in his responses and this got him in trouble. The internet is at times not a good judge of religious character or of the people who represent faiths.

I saw a lot of respect in this thread. There was one post up front and that person was corrected by a fellow Catholic. Everything else has been honest questions, and statements.

I dunno whyme, in one post you point out how you provide Mormon apologetics as your “take on the matter”, while simultaneously asserting that truth is relative. And you participate in the Catholic religion.

When Mormons come around here, trolling for pain or converts, whichever the case may be, I don’t believe I have any reason to support what they are doing.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Which is a relative judgement. And since that this truth is relative it needs to be handled carefully when presented. Mormons see themselves as christians. How to handle it? Do I bash them to death with the trinity? Or do I attempt to understand why they consider themselves to be christian?

The relative religoious truth is: have discussions based in mutual respect and understanding. Show love and not hate…kindness and not anger. Be respectuful and not offensive. That is my relative truth when discussing religion and religious beliefs.

The truth of Christianity is not relative. It is absolute. Mormons attempt to make the truth of Christianity subjective. Which is relative to nothing but themselves.

 

[elt1956]

Dear Brother Dorsey, although I understand very litlle about the LDS church and really do wonder, Do you believe yourselves to be Christian? Not being nasty, just trying to clarify. Most Christian groups do not consider you so. All I know is that LDS members believe and uphold the Bible, but also have added the Book of Mormon? to their beliefs.

Also, I apoligize for the rudeness of some members who we as Catholics believe to be part of the Mystical Body of Christ. I think some joints are aching. I will be happy to answer your questions for you, if I may.

Brother_Dorsey:

MrsS.,…a few questions for you…yes or no answers will suffice.
Thanks in advance

1. Please tell me, when did you become the judge of who and who isn’t Christian? I don’t know if I can answer that. Maybe a better question, if you will pardon me, is who does God love and want to be with Him? Everyone.
2. I think the judging should be left up to God don’t you think? Yes, I think each individual should be judged by God, but we do have the obligation to judge for ourselves what is right for us and what we believe.
3. Or do you not believe in what He said in the Bible regarding judging people? “Judge not that you will not be judged??” Amen.
4. Do you realize that it is mean and rude and wrong to make such statements about others beliefs? It is undignified and cruel and so very self-satisfying if one doesn’t respect fellow humans.
5. And that Jesus never taught that we should act this way? Absolutely.
6. Is this how all Catholics act? From some of the responses on this forum, one could never tell.
7. Is this self righteous attitude a prerequisite for being a member of the Catholic church? If it is, I’m out.

Peace.

I will await your answers.
Brother D.

 

[elt1956]

I don’t think you are a troll, that was for dorsey.

Did anyone say anything that is not true? What is unrighteous or evil about speaking the truth?

Not all are “blessed” with your insight.

 

[elt1956]

I don’t think you are a troll, that was for dorsey.

Did anyone say anything that is not true? What is unrighteous or evil about speaking the truth?

Do you have a switch that you flip whyme? One setting is mormon and another setting for Catholic and another for agnostic? How in the world do you keep up with yourself?

You post Mormon apologetics, which has never answered any Mormon critique in a satisfactory manner. Not once. Speculations, every one of them.

And, I think you read the “evil” tone into the posts. dorsey asked for questions, he got them, and has answered only one post, and that one, he was insulting.

Though I have to say, on review of the thread I believe z-on-account-review did a fine job of showing how judgmental Mormons are.

Why is it we think we can “group” ALL MEMBERS believing in a religion as ibeing nsulting, knowledgeable, insensitive, saintly, perfect etc.? Religions are made of individuals who can’t possibly reflect the beliefs and actions of all who belong to the same religious group. No wonder we have had religious wars for centuries. Peace.

 

[majick275]

From the link:

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire. It will refrain from declaring that a person has forfeited all opportunity for exaltation or even all opportunity for a useful role in the work of the Lord. The gospel is a gospel of hope, and none of us is authorized to deny the power of the Atonement to bring about a cleansing of individual sins, forgiveness, and a reformation of life on appropriate conditions.

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest. The Book of Mormon teaches: “For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain … as the daylight is from the dark night.

“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil” (Moro. 7:15–16).

The Savior taught that one of the missions of the Comforter He would send would be to assist in the judgment of the world by guiding the faithful “into all truth” (John 16:13; see also John 16:8, 11).

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. In an essay titled “Sitting in the Seat of Judgment,” the great essayist William George Jordan reminded us that character cannot be judged as dress goods—by viewing a sample yard to represent a whole bolt of cloth (see The Crown of Individuality [1909], 101–5).

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=2d0584d4a0a0c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

The judgements about mormons and mormonism that go on in this section of the forum are evil and certainly not righteous judgements by the catholics.

we don’t recognize mormon authority to define “righteous judgement” I presented this to show that mormons DO believe in judging others. however, if we use this article as a template, I don’t issue “final judgements” and what say is intended to “guide the faithful into all truth”. so I’m good. now mocking catholic sacraments by bragging about being a lector and taking frequent communion while bearing testimony of joseph smith and the BoM…well, you be the judge of that if you want. I think it wrong. since you claim to not believe in God though (how can the BoM be true then?) maybe you don’t see any consequences.

 

[majick275]

Dear Rebecca,

You need to view posts with an open mind. Reread the thread and see what the catholics have said about mormonism. Dorsey is coming from a mormon perspective on what it feels to read such posts about his faith. To understand him is to understand that he values his religion as much as you value yours. Also, please read the blue that I posted from a poster’s link and then consider the judgements that have been made by the catholics here about mormons and mormonism.

I am no troll. But the catholic behavior has been less than stellar.

geee… maybe he shouldn’t come to a CATHOLIC site to preach mormonism then. if you come here of your own free will and choice you should expect people to show you why catholicism is true. sometimes that requires to show why other religions that make THE SAME CLAIM are false. you still don’t respond to the mormon SCRIPTURE condemning the credds as ABOMINATIONS in the sight of God and all their professors corrupt. next time you go to mass, look around and ask yourself during the profession of faith why that act (that you claim to participate in ) is an abomination. then ask yourself why everyone there is corrupt. then read your own posts and consider the offense given when you casually toss around how the priests and nuns (opus dei no less) are all good with you being a mormon and still taking communion and how they are okay with you going to sacrament meeting and taking mormon sacrament (when there is no mass nearby) and how you correct those nuns and parishioners who dare to say that the BoM is false or that mormons aren’t christian.

 

[majick275]

Because in matters of faith, truth is relative.

WAHT??? the Catholic church and the LDS church BOTH teach that belief is WRONG!!! truth is truth and GODs truth is NEVER subjective.

Mormons have their truth and catholics have their own truth. Likewise for other faiths.

and other faiths have ERROR. the momrons teach this as well. those errors cannot be waved off.

I think that when faith is discussed it needs to come from a perspective of understanding and dialogue and not from a perspective of ‘my’ truth.

your actions demonstrate that you define this by a willingness to accept mormn missionary teachings. not interested. go peddle that on the LDS sites to people who go there SEEKING mormonism not here where we hope to win people to the true faith.

Of course mormons can have this tendency of ‘truth’ bashing too. But it is never successful in conveying understanding. The tone of the posts can be disrespectful.

you think? yet every mormon missionary starts with that first discussion about the great apostasy and that JS scripture about abominable creeds…

When catholic posters post antimormon links with information, I usually counter with a mormon site that responds with my own take on the matter. The point being that there are two sides to the argument or discussion. Nothing is open and closed easily in discussing mormonism.

there are two sides. right and wrong. if mormons are right then the catholic church is apostate. if not then mormons are wrong and we have to show why so that people can see the truth. the mormon church is by definition anticatholic. links to verifiable facts that tell truth are valid regardless of yuor labeling “antimormon”. truth is truth.

Evil because many such posts come from the spirit of contention and disrespect.

no they come from a desire to lead people away from spiritual danger to Gods church. are you “respectful” of satanists beliefs?

 

[majick275]

You may be right about Dorsey. He should engage more but perhaps he feels it is no use to engage too much. My comments have nothing to do with mormon, catholic or agnostic at the moment. It just has to do with respect for another person’s belief patterns when it comes to faith or lack of faith.

Much about faith is speculation. If not so, we would not need faith. It would be absolute fact. The fact about mormonism and the lds church is that it has survived when many other sects have not. And it will continue to survive because for many the religion works well and lds people believe it to be true.

Z is now in retirement with his account under review. Or perhaps he has been banned I don’t know. He was being a little flippy in his responses and this got him in trouble. The internet is at times not a good judge of religious character or of the people who represent faiths.

so based on that SDA’s, JW’s, wiccans, scientologists, etc. all good cuz they “survive” and “work well” for many and their followers believe them to be true. so we should accept that. leave them to their religions and tell them how great that it “works for them”. that is NOT the teaching of either the mormon OR the catholic church. we ARE our brothers keepers and we are obligated to lead people to Christs church.

 

[majick275]

Which is a relative judgement. And since that this truth is relative it needs to be handled carefully when presented. Mormons see themselves as christians. How to handle it? Do I bash them to death with the trinity? Or do I attempt to understand why they consider themselves to be christian?

The relative religoious truth is: have discussions based in mutual respect and understanding. Show love and not hate…kindness and not anger. Be respectuful and not offensive. That is my relative truth when discussing religion and religious beliefs.

we know why they believe they are christians. the truth is not relative in this it is absolute. no one is showing hate when we correct false doctrine. you certainly aren’t respectful and you are VERY offensive with your posts. you constantly attack and mock the catholic faith while claiming “cath cred” to deceive the unwary.

 

[Jerusha]

. Catholics are more or less content to discuss their own faith and not examine and analyze other faiths. Also, many Catholics and their families have their own problems that they deal with every day. They realize the hypocrisy of self-righteous condemnation of the faiths of others.

Perhaps this is the reason why so many Catholics are so busy defending a faith that needs no defense. Those people whose faiths contain doctrines that condemn Catholicism need to brought upright with objective evaluation of their faiths by Catholicism. Catholicism has been silent about LDS for too many years, always fearful of accusation of “Crusade” or “Inquisition”. I say, the best defense is a good offense.

Take a good look at the self-righteousness of the condemnation of Catholics by LDS.

Those poor naive Opus Dei people have no knowlege of who they are tangling with. If indeed you are who you say you are.