I'm LDS....let's learn from eachother.....

[ibkc]

There are leadership roles within the Catholic Church for women. The priesthood isn’t the be-all and the end-all of everything.

In any case, the state of women’s rights in the Catholic Church is infinitely more advanced than in the LDS church. A Catholic woman isn’t doomed to an eternity as a baby-making slave to some man she may or may not be able to tolerate. And that is the best-case scenario for a Mormon woman.

 

[luvlife]

The problem with your statements above, and the general approach you are taking here, is that your audience is made up, (at least predominantly, I would hope), of practicing Catholic and Orthodox Christians, who believe with every fiber of their being that Jesus, the Christ...the Logos...the incarnate human form of the Living God..the Word of God made flesh...who was born of the Virgin Mary, and became Man....who suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead in fulfillment of the scriptures...has, Himself provided the Church, which he established upon Peter (The rock).  The Church of The Lord our God has been kept alive, as Jesus has asked through Apostolic succession for over 2,000 years, (so far), as we await his glorious return.  Catholic Christianity itself, then,  is a fulfillment of the scriptures, and the ordained pathway to God and His Kingdom.

 

[majick275]

Is all of this from the Book of Mormon? Or did it develop over time and is based on their tradition? Do they feel that all of their beliefs must be based on on of the two books… or do they allow for beliefs to be conveyed through their leaders… (like the JW’s “light” getting brighter)

I know they get the 3 levels of heaven from the Bible, although I believe they misinerpret the verses.

Also, I wonder if the divorce rate for Mormons is smaller than that of Catholics?

none of it is in the BoM in fact you will find that most mormon teachings and practices that are uniquely “mormon” are not Bom based. the Doctrine & Covenants is the mormon scripture that determines most of these. Most of the Temple ceremony though isn’t published. it is “tradition” that is taught by repetition (there aren’t really any classes or interactive sessions) by going to the temple and “experiencing” it. they have “prophets” who can reveal new scripture, change existing scripture or just “command the people” in the Lord’s name. they have also have a 4th book of scripture the Pearl of Great Price. the 3 heavens they claim is based on the bible but yes they interpret that particular scripture very differently than other churches. Mormon demographics need to be understood beyond just religion. mormons are a small unified group with a narrow socio-economic average. within the same demographics you will see similar divorce statistics as catholics.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Start a new thread with the names of all the female RC priests you can find, and we’ll talk.

sigh

Christ leads His Church. No man or woman rises above that.

And, you have a very distinct get-ahead, power-hungry view of the role of the Roman Catholic clergy. It isn’t about who has power and who doesn’t.

 

[majick275]

sigh

Christ leads His Church. No man or woman rises above that.

And, you have a very distinct get-ahead, power-hungry view of the role of the Roman Catholic clergy. It isn’t about who has power and who doesn’t.

in the end Catholic teaching is that all of us who are saved by God end up sharing in his divinity at the same level. there will be no “heirarchy” in heaven. pope, priest lay person male or female will all share the beatific vision as equals. none will be subordinate to anyone other than God. all will worship God and he will gather us all to him.

this is so different than the mormon teaching of multilevel heaven with ongoing work and callings with a full blown bureaucracy being tasked to go, do , return and report in a never ending series of worlds. what is elohims god doing now? you know the fate of those in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms sounds better. they get to “retire” in a place of joy. some of the celestial kingdom residents end up servants and even the highest of the exalted get no rest. imagine having to deal with your own adam and eve and what do you to send them a savior?

 

[LaMar]

in the end Catholic teaching is that all of us who are saved by God end up sharing in his divinity at the same level. there will be no “heirarchy” in heaven. pope, priest lay person male or female will all share the beatific vision as equals. none will be subordinate to anyone other than God. all will worship God and he will gather us all to him.

this is so different than the mormon teaching of multilevel heaven with ongoing work and callings with a full blown bureaucracy being tasked to go, do , return and report in a never ending series of worlds. what is elohims god doing now? you know the fate of those in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms sounds better. they get to “retire” in a place of joy. some of the celestial kingdom residents end up servants and even the highest of the exalted get no rest. imagine having to deal with your own adam and eve and what do you to send them a savior?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy

This is one of the fundamental texts which helped spread Catholic Christianity to the masses. It describes a tiered afterlife that is far more complicated and unequal than anything Joseph Smith ever dreamt up.

 

[ibkc]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy

This is one of the fundamental texts which helped spread Catholic Christianity to the masses.

Dante did not ‘spread’ Catholic Christianity to the masses. The Catholic Church had been established for at least 1200 years before these works were written. It was the dominant form of Christianity in the world and the only form of Christianity in western Europe at the time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

in the end Catholic teaching is that all of us who are saved by God end up sharing in his divinity at the same level. there will be no “heirarchy” in heaven. pope, priest lay person male or female will all share the beatific vision as equals. none will be subordinate to anyone other than God. all will worship God and he will gather us all to him.

this is so different than the mormon teaching of multilevel heaven with ongoing work and callings with a full blown bureaucracy being tasked to go, do , return and report in a never ending series of worlds. what is elohims god doing now? you know the fate of those in the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms sounds better. they get to “retire” in a place of joy. some of the celestial kingdom residents end up servants and even the highest of the exalted get no rest. imagine having to deal with your own adam and eve and what do you to send them a savior?

And, specific to gender, a woman is dependent AND subordinate to her priesthood holding husband. Forever and ever and ever and ever and ever…

This is not the case, in Catholicism, either here on earth or heaven.

The shortest way to say this is, Catholicism is not an eternal patriarchy!

 

[majick275]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy

This is one of the fundamental texts which helped spread Catholic Christianity to the masses. It describes a tiered afterlife that is far more complicated and unequal than anything Joseph Smith ever dreamt up.

i’ve read dante many times. i especially enjoyed the modern rewrite of it “inferno” by larry niven and jerry pournelle. While entertaining it carries no doctrinal weight. while it may have been popular conjecture it does not portray dogma. it came pretty late o be considered something that “spread Christianity to the masses”. it also only tiers hell not heaven.

 

[LaMar]

i’ve read dante many times. i especially enjoyed the modern rewrite of it “inferno” by larry niven and jerry pournelle. While entertaining it carries no doctrinal weight. while it may have been popular conjecture it does not portray dogma. it came pretty late o be considered something that “spread Christianity to the masses”. it also only tiers hell not heaven.

It was a major factor in the transmogrification of Northern Europe to Christianity. Study the history of Norway, Iceland and the Faeroe Islands. The graphic descriptions of different mythical tortures in Hell seemed to have spooked huge numbers of credulous folks into abandoning both Paganism and (no kidding) Islam, which was also making inroads into the area through trade with the Turks.

 

[ibkc]

It was a major factor in the transmogrification of Northern Europe to Christianity. Study the history of Norway, Iceland and the Faeroe Islands. The graphic descriptions of different mythical tortures in Hell seemed to have spooked huge numbers of credulous folks into abandoning both Paganism and (no kidding) Islam, which was also making inroads into the area through trade with the Turks.

LaMar apparently has me on ignore, but for anyone who cares, the Christianization process began in Scandinavia hundreds of years before Dante, and was largely complete by the time Dante lived. Pagan traditions in Scandinavia lived on in the folk beliefs of the common folk, especially in more isolated areas. Some scholars attribute a concrete view of Satan in the popular mind to Dante, but there is no record of widespread hysterical conversions because Dante’s works. Christianization was ongoing in those countries.

 

[RebeccaJ]

LaMar apparently has me on ignore,

 

[LaMar]

i’ve read dante many times. i especially enjoyed the modern rewrite of it “inferno” by larry niven and jerry pournelle.

marypat.org/stuff/mywords/dante.html

This looks pretty interesting.

Magick, I know you’re not going to admit this (maybe not even to yourself), but you and I both know that neither of these two myths (Mormon or Catholic) represent reality.

Have you ever seen Heaven or Hell? Ever been there? Ever know anyone who has? If so, did this person bring back any proof for such a place?

When Yuri Gagarin made his groundbreaking journey, the first thing he supposedly said was “There is no God up here”.

You’re such a well read, bright guy. What is it about this opium of the people stuff that attracts you, and those like you?

 

[LaMar]

Yes, I guess the missionaries who first came over with the conquistadors finally realized that if all the Native Americans were killed there wouldn’t be any left to convert. Peace.

My people made similar mistakes with the Navajo and the Utes too. When I was a kid it was common for families in my own hometown to “adopt” Lamanite kids, and rob them of their customs and folkways. I don’t think this happens to the same extent it once did, which is a good thing.

The Guarani language is alive today because of Jesuit priests, and it’s now very fashionable for White Paraguayans to speak it.

 

[majick275]

It was a major factor in the transmogrification of Northern Europe to Christianity. Study the history of Norway, Iceland and the Faeroe Islands. The graphic descriptions of different mythical tortures in Hell seemed to have spooked huge numbers of credulous folks into abandoning both Paganism and (no kidding) Islam, which was also making inroads into the area through trade with the Turks.

i disagree. the christianization of Scandinavia was accomplished hundreds of years earlier. perhaps this is what made them so receptive to lutheranism? seriously though, missionaries went to throughout Scandinavia in the 8th century and slowly but surely converted them. by the 12th century this was pretty much complete. (except the Lapps who some say still aren’t converted) you’ve been watching to much 13th warrior. islam wasn’t very appealing to early “vikings” except as trade partners. their beliefs made it easy to be friends but what swede, finn or dane was gonna give up alcohol back then?

 

[LaMar]

i disagree. the christianization of Scandinavia was accomplished hundreds of years earlier. perhaps this is what made them so receptive to lutheranism? seriously though, missionaries went to throughout Scandinavia in the 8th century and slowly but surely converted them. by the 12th century this was pretty much complete. (except the Lapps who some say still aren’t converted) you’ve been watching to much 13th warrior. islam wasn’t very appealing to early “vikings” except as trade partners. their beliefs made it easy to be friends but what swede, finn or dane was gonna give up alcohol back then?

The ruling classes (less than 1% of the population) converted to Christianity for reasons of political expediency. It was almost a non-issue among the general population.

That’s the way these things generally happen. Spain is a random analogy. It was probably 70% Christian/Jew/Atheist/Other even at the height of the Islamic era.

If you ever wonder where all those blonde Turks came from, or where the runes carved into the haga sofia originate, it was from the Islamo-Scandians who had to beat an exit during the protestant reformation. (Those proddies were much more vicious in a few limited cases than the holy inquisition was).

 

[Believe_85]

LaMar,
If they brought back proof of Heaven and Hell (what would it possibly be, for pete’s sake) would you even believe them? It seems from your previous posts on this and other threads that you have a very concrete view of life: now is all we have.

Obviously, well educated, successful people who also happen to believe in God and the afterlife (like Einstein) will not convince you. I think the answer to your questions and doubts are within you. Here on CAF you may find what we as Catholics believe and I really respect you for looking into religions, but I don’t see anyone here saying the right words to help open your heart to God.

 

[LaMar]

LaMar,
If they brought back proof of Heaven and Hell (what would it possibly be, for pete’s sake) would you even believe them? It seems from your previous posts on this and other threads that you have a very concrete view of life: now is all we have.

That’s not really true, but I understand how you might have come to that conclusion.

I think the stories we read in scripture reflect the human condition. In many cases they describe important aspects of psychology and sociology.

I watched a film last night about Catholic-Marxist proto-saint Dorothy Day. The last scene of that film was almost perfectly analogous to Muhammad’s night journey. (I’d go into detail, but I don’t want to derail the thread).

Why would two different stories draw upon the same identical theme? Because the importance cuts across cultures, drawing upon common experiences. I’m sure I could go to sub-Saharan Africa, and find some lost tribe that never heard of Jesus, Muhammad or Dorothy Day, and they’d have a myth that drew upon the same principles.

That in itself makes these stories worth telling. You don’t have to believe that Muhammad rode a donkey to heaven, or that Moses died before reaching the promised land, to appreciate the lesson (which is the same one Dorothy Day learned when she had her own crisis of faith and reconstructed it). These are universal stories, which teach deeper truths. Many here read the bible as though it were the daily newspaper. I think they’re missing out on the best part that way; but I respect their own pursuit for spiritual truth, which is different from my own.

 

[majick275]

marypat.org/stuff/mywords/dante.html

This looks pretty interesting.

Magick, I know you’re not going to admit this (maybe not even to yourself), but you and I both know that neither of these two myths (Mormon or Catholic) represent reality.

i really do believe. i don’t see it as mythical.

Have you ever seen Heaven or Hell? Ever been there? Ever know anyone who has? If so, did this person bring back any proof for such a place?

no, no, jesus, yes but you might disagree on the definition of “proof” in this case.

When Yuri Gagarin made his groundbreaking journey, the first thing he supposedly said was “There is no God up here”.

well let’s see he was there as a representative of his godless communist totalitarian government. what did you expect? let’s look at the other space program…the one that put a man on the moon. buzz aldrin took communion on the moon (presbyterian I believe) to show his faith in God. here is a good story about a catholic space shuttle astronaut : gratefulcatholic.blogspot.com/2005/06/reflections-of-catholic-astronaut.html

You’re such a well read, bright guy. What is it about this opium of the people stuff that attracts you, and those like you?

well being a staunch anticommunist i don’t sse it as opium of the masses.
it is easy to reconcile christianity with science and learning IMO
look here:

utdallas.edu/~ivor/intellect.html

and here:

reasons.org/

I see the effects of God just as Duns Scotus taught we can. i see his handiwork every day. I have a healthy prayer life. I talk to God. he responds. I don’t get visions or revelations or speak in tongues. I don’t get secret knowledge and there is no “burning in the bosom” that causes me to abandon logic, ignore facts and start engaging in cognitive dissonance. God “guides” me to answers. he strengthens me and comforts me and encourages me to learn and apply my learning. I really feel loved by God. not because i’m unique ( i believe he loves us all) but because I open myself to his love. it has always been there. my reception and understanding/acceptance/recognition of it unfortunately has not.

it is all too easy for an inquisitive person willing to study to realize that mormomism is false. don’t let the years of “mormonization” make you so cynical that your knowledge of that causes you to disregard all religion as “superstition”. it’s easy to do and happens a lot with exmos and/or NOM’s (see the sites for FLAK and NOM or even RFM) but there really is a God and he really gave us a church. just like most legends start from a grain of truth, JS scam was based on the idea grain of Christian truth. The Catholic church has the whole tree. i gotta tell you i enjoy it. I like going to mass. I am thankful for the eucharist. the catholic faith brings me peace and joy in many ways.

I sense that somewhere inside you aren’t the condescending atheist intellectual you can look like in some of your posts. I think you fear becoming that which you hate. don’t worry, you’ll be fine.

 

[majick275]

The ruling classes (less than 1% of the population) converted to Christianity for reasons of political expediency. It was almost a non-issue among the general population.

That’s the way these things generally happen. Spain is a random analogy. It was probably 70% Christian/Jew/Atheist/Other even at the height of the Islamic era.

If you ever wonder where all those blonde Turks came from, or where the runes carved into the haga sofia originate, it was from the Islamo-Scandians who had to beat an exit during the protestant reformation. (Those proddies were much more vicious in a few limited cases than the holy inquisition was).

maybe in 850 but by 1200 it was pretty much the rule.
Spain shows the depth of belief by the christians who refused to convert even the face of the moorish occupation. those blonde turks came form the janissaries that cowardly Europeans gave in tribute. (and probably a few drunk vikings) i disagree with your timeline on the hagia sophia runes. (varangian guard maybe 980 ish?)