I'm LDS....let's learn from eachother.....

[Memaw]

From what I know of Mormonism, it doesn’t have much of a historical basis. The converts are asked to simply seek in their hearts for a message of the Spirit that it’s true. As a Catholic, I have a bit more than that from which to refer when I know that Jesus was/is real, the Church is not only referred to in it’s own literature from the NT, but also from authorities in Roman and Jewish government over a long time period. The Bible is able to be studied, unlike the Book of Mormon (BoM) in the original languages, and there is actual archaeological evidence to back most of its historical (if not spiritual) claims.

In my discussions with missionaries, like many fundie Protestants, they were unable to refute the claims of the Church once I showed them the biblical sources and foundations for them. It’s a common fallacy that “Roman” Catholicism is not biblical; it’s easy to say it, since many Catholics don’t read and study their Bible to be sure of what it actually says. Even when challenged by evangelicals, they tend not to look up the source from which they have just been quoted. Usually, the quote is used out of context, like much of Catholic teaching. Yet, the Church teaches the Bible consistently, daily, weekly, in the Liturgy of the Word during Mass, something which is conveniently overlooked by aggressive fundies. That word is available, if not in Bibles, which tend to be nice decorations on a bookshelf but rarely opened, in the missalette available at Mass to most, if they are willing, and have time to read it and pray it. But that means being at Mass at least fifteen minutes before it starts.

Oh that more Catholics would take what you said to heart. We can and do read the Bible everyday at Mass. If only folks would get over their false notions about the Catholic Faith, they would find the most beautiful TRUTHS in Her teachings. I always tell my non-catholic friends that in the Catholic Church, the OT and the NT go hand in hand, fit like a hand in glove,.You CAN’T separate the two, anymore than you can separate the Catholic Church from the Bible. Those that have tried to take the Bible and run with it find themselves sooo divided in what they believe. Self interpretation is destroying the protestant denominations. They have drifted sooo far off track and now are fizziling out, becoming morally weaker and weaker and starting to accept all kinds of secular evils, such as abortion, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, birth control, just to name a few. And that is why our world is slipping into the cesspool of sin. Many catholics have drifted away from the true teachings of the Catholic faith and find themselves in the same mess.

 

[Stephen168]

When a Hindu claims he worships only one God, supreme in the universe, most are astonished. The curious can ask a Hindu to explain where Shiva, Krishna, and the hundreds of lesser gods fit into the whole equation. What will a Hindu say? He’ll say these aren’t actually separate gods, they are simply different manifestations of the one God of Hinduism.

The one God of the Hindus is named Brahman, who is lord of the universe and has no peer.

Whether you like it or not, and no matter how many hoops you jump through, you are in fact a polytheist, at least as far as Hindus are polytheists. Your definition is exactly the same as the Hindu definition. There is no difference.

I think you just described modalism
newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm

As far as Mary goes, I find it pretty odd to hear you deny the worship of her, inasmuch as a bunch of Catholics blocked traffic a few weeks ago because they thought they saw her image on a street sign (no, I’m not kidding). There were 5 or 6 of them with candles, crying, kneeling and praying to her image on the evening news in my town. You can call this whatever you like. I call it worship, which is exactly what it is.

I guess you are free to define - sitting in a tub of water as hunting, if you like. Only because we are in a Catholic forum; maybe we should us the Catholic definition of worship.

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

 

[majick275]

Hi Kathy,

I’m pleased you agree we don’t worship, respect or pay homage to the same God. I’m happy about that as I’m sure you are, and I hope to keep it that way, for “time and all eternity” (heh).

Your very words prove that the way Catholics see the triune gods is exactly the way the Hindus see their one God.

When a Hindu claims he worships only one God, supreme in the universe, most are astonished. The curious can ask a Hindu to explain where Shiva, Krishna, and the hundreds of lesser gods fit into the whole equation. What will a Hindu say? He’ll say these aren’t actually separate gods, they are simply different manifestations of the one God of Hinduism.

The one God of the Hindus is named Brahman, who is lord of the universe and has no peer.

hinduwebsite.com/brahmanmain.asp

Whether you like it or not, and no matter how many hoops you jump through, you are in fact a polytheist, at least as far as Hindus are polytheists. Your definition is exactly the same as the Hindu definition. There is no difference.

As far as Mary goes, I find it pretty odd to hear you deny the worship of her, inasmuch as a bunch of Catholics blocked traffic a few weeks ago because they thought they saw her image on a street sign (no, I’m not kidding). There were 5 or 6 of them with candles, crying, kneeling and praying to her image on the evening news in my town. You can call this whatever you like. I call it worship, which is exactly what it is.

I don’t know why you’d be ashamed of this or try to minimize it. “G-d the feminine” is approached by some Jews, and some Mormons ask “Heavenly Mother” for healings. Neither Mormons nor Jews will usually admit as much openly. You guys have your own Goddess, queen of the universe, to pray to and ask favors of. Why deny it? Be proud of it.

Take Care,

LaMar

you misunderstand the catholic position as being modalist. it is not. they are 3 persons and one God.

 

[Nordar]

Technically, it’s accurate, in the same way Roman Catholics are polytheistic.

Mormons have one God they know and ask favors of (roughly corresponding to your God the Father), but we believe he has a God, and that God has a God too, and on and on.

You guys have Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and Mary. Then you have demigods in various saints, though most Catholics probably couldn’t be called worshipers of them.

:yawn:

 

[Jerusha]

He is trying to teach us his version of Catholic theology. That way, later on, someone else can convince us we are LDS pretending to be Catholic. :hypno:

No sense in refuting what is so obviously incorrect. It mocks Catholicism.

 

[ibkc]

He is trying to teach us his version of Catholic theology.

More to the point, he is trying to convince everyone, most of all himself, that he has the key to all human belief, and that all the world’s religions fit into the nice little box he’s constructed for himself.

No sense in refuting what is so obviously incorrect. It mocks Catholicism.

That it does. He’s been corrected probably a couple of dozen times on this, but he persists, as if nothing has been said at all. He’s not here for dialog; he’s here to mock and sneer.

 

[LaMar]

Hello LaMar. To call our Mother Mary a Goddess is just plain yucky to a Catholic. But then the ways of God are sometimes strange and the ways of hu/mans are always stranger. Peace.

True dat.

Mary seems much more potent and powerful than, say, Demeter, one of the oldest and most fundamental deities in the Indo-European pantheon, who had to run around begging humans to help her save her (also divine) daughter.

When I was a kid I used to read about Classical Greece and Rome. Herodotus, Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War, Plato…

I used to wonder how the society worked, and how the average joe could keep track of who was doing what, or who to pray to for this or that. It’s a shame I didn’t just take some Catholic classes, because it’s a perfect allegory. You had an alpha-male God on top, then you had his kids, family, and friends, responsible for specific areas and situations. You pray to St. Christopher for safe journeys, and to St. Francis if your cat has to go to the vet. Granted, it’s not my thing, but I think it’s pretty cool.

 

[why_me]

So in other words it is impossible to learn from anyone who doesn’t conform to the norms of certain catholic posters who post on this thread.

This thread got many hits but I am not sure if it received a wide variety of posters. And if true, that should tell us all something about this thread.

 

[LaMar]

So in other words it is impossible to learn from anyone who doesn’t conform to the norms of certain catholic posters who post on this thread.

This thread got many hits but I am not sure if it received a wide variety of posters. And if true, that should tell us all something about this thread.

You talkin’ to me?

(/me puts on his best Robert DeNiro in Taxi Driver face)

You talkin’ to ME?

You talkin’ to me?

You TALKIN’ to ME?

 

[why_me]

You talkin’ to me?

(/me puts on his best Robert DeNiro in Taxi Driver face)

You talkin’ to ME?

You talkin’ to me?

You TALKIN’ to ME?

You talkin’ to me?

Chump, you talkin’ to me?

Yo, Adrian, is he talkin’ to me?

He can’t be talkin’ to me!

Are YOU talkin’ to me?

Naaaawwww, he ain’t talkin to me. :getholy:

 

[LaMar]

You talkin’ to me?

Chump, you talkin’ to me?

Yo, Adrian, is he talkin’ to me?

He can’t be talkin’ to me!

Are YOU talkin’ to me?

Naaaawwww, he ain’t talkin to me. :getholy:

Hey WhyMe, How’s life in Zion?

Who would be the patron saint of Provo in the Catholic pantheon? Would St. George who killed the dragon be the patron saint of St. George? Or would it be Mary, since it’s on the Rio Virgin?

How about Orderville? Would it be St. Brigham Young, or St. Karl Marx?

What ever happened to all the Mormon Dorothy Day types? They seem to have disappeared in two generations. Now all we have are Romneys and Mariotts. Maybe Brother Dorsey can tell us.

 

[PaulDupre]

Thank you for the welcome…as I said in my OP I am not here to spread contention, convert anyone or put down another’s faith. I’m just here to learn and possibly answer some questions…and I’m hoping for the same in return.

Brother Dorsey,

If we ex-Mormons seem a bit skittish when a Mormon comes here looking to “learn and possibly answer some questions”, it is only because we know from experience and memory that the ONLY reason Mormons voluntarily associate with non-Mormons (whether on-line or in real life) is to convert them. You even have lesson manuals on “Friendshipping” (i.e.: how to target a vulnerable person and then love-bomb him into the cult). The moment the prospect of conversion is gone, so is the friendship. Anyone who has had contact with the Morg knows that. So an ex-Mormon will never believe that you have no such intention.

Just so we’re clear.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[Memaw]

Ah the last line of Mormon defense contention… Jesus should have quit when he saw that the scribes and pharisees were so mad they wanted to kill him, and he certainly shouldn’t have ever whipped and drove out the money changers. The apostles should have never got people so mad that they imprisoned them and eventually killed them. If they had only learned the Mormon lesson on contention and obeying the law of the land they would have never said anything offensive and caused contention. As a LDS missionary our leaders reminded us often “if anyone brings up anything controversial, bear your testimony and leave, and heavy on the leave” I have since learned that this is the only real argument Mormons have in the face of the mountain of evidence proving Joseph Smith was a easily proved con artist fraud, call those providing facts contentious and leave (just as you did on this thread).
Well, this logic may work well for those who are blindly obedient but it isn’t working well for the honest seekers of truth. I and other truth defenders must and will continue even if the blind are offended for the following reasons.
The LDS church Newspaper Deseret Morning News Published: Thursday, Feb. 14, 2008 reported: “Late President Gordon B. Hinckley once told the Quorum of the Twelve, “Brethren, when my life is finished and the final services are concluding, I am going to rise up as I go by, look each of you in the eye and say, 'How are we doing on retention?”’ Retention has become a real focus. For you don’t need an abacus to know many members have left the building.
What happened to them?”

In the United States, Mormons are departing from the faith as fast as converts are joining. Converts rarely remain active in the Mormon Church. The official Mormon reaction to the articles stating that there are significantly less than 12 million members worldwide.

This is from a Salt Lake Tribune article Sep. 1st, 2005 quoting Merrill Bateman, a Mormon Seventy

“…He agreed the LDS Church’s worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.

Bateman said that number doesn’t count those in undeveloped countries who find it difficult to attend sacrament meetings. ‘So you might have in the neighborhood of . . . 4 [million] and 5 million members attending church at any given time, but those who are active would be more than that.’

Point: We must not be afraid to aggressively help the honest see the truth about Mormonism. Many have left and many more will leave, it is only a matter of someone telling the truth to those who are honest enough to hear it. We start out with something simple like telling them about The origins of the Catholic church and how many false prophets and teachers have tried to rise up and fight against Christ’s church. Then we tell them about the Many changes in the BoM and D&C often even reversing the original meaning. Then go on to the Kinderhook plates, The papyrus and the Book of Abraham etc. etc. (look these up on the web they are very convincing arguments that have led many to the truth about Mormonism). The honest are hit between the eyes with contention, contention over the fact that they were ever fooled by the Mormon con artists…

Tiber diving team of 2004 (we go deeper to penetrate the darkness with the light)

About a year ago, I had several weekly sessions with 2 young Morman missionaries. I watched their videos, listened to all they said and what they read from their version of Scriptures. I was very patient with all they said and how they placed Joseph Smith ahead of Jesus. Finally, I asked them why they put Joseph Smith so far above Jesus when Joseph was a mere man with a vivid imagination and Jesus Christ is truly the SON of GOD and the 3rd Person of the Blessed Trinity. They became very agitated said I insulted their leader and left and never came back!!! So much for wanting to share beliefs.

 

[ibkc]

So in other words it is impossible to learn from anyone who doesn’t conform to the norms of certain catholic posters who post on this thread.

Hi why me; many of us have been where LaMar is and have done that. He tosses out soundbites from history, philosophy and mythology with the apparent idea that no one who chooses Christianity could possibly know about those things. Guess what, that kind of bigotry is as common as mud among atheists, especially. Many of us are educated about the stuff LaMar tosses out as bait, and know it in far more depth than he does. The only thing to learn from him is how not to act when a guest in someone else’s home.

 

[RC_Matt]

Hi why me; many of us have been where LaMar is and have done that. He tosses out soundbites from history, philosophy and mythology with the apparent idea that no one who chooses Christianity could possibly know about those things. Guess what, that kind of bigotry is as common as mud among atheists, especially. Many of us are educated about the stuff LaMar tosses out as bait, and know it in far more depth than he does. The only thing to learn from him is how not to act when a guest in someone else’s home.

Nah, LaMar’s cool, kind of a culturally Mormon straight-shooting secular humanist with a sense of humor and a brain. He is where he is on life’s journey and I can respect that. (I also agree with him that it is way cooler to shoot hoops with other dudes than it is to chat and sing with nuns). He may sometimes and stir things up a little; but that’s ok, there’s obviously no malice intended. He’s also the only Mormon poster in here who answers questions candidly with intelligence and honesty.

 

[Memaw]

Are you the type of person who needs the carrot/stick of some nonexistent heaven/hell to do what’s right?

Some are. You might be one of them (I’m not pretending to know). I’m not. My parents gave me an ethical platform which went far beyond the Jesus/Lehi folk tales.

For people who actually would go out and cause a bunch of trouble without a literal belief in a judgment day, I’m in favor of them sticking with it. For the rest of us, we manage to do the right thing whether or not we’ve got someone keeping score, simply on principle.

If you really believe all that then what do you think happens after you die? And you WILL die the same as all the rest of us.

 

[ibkc]

Nah, LaMar’s cool, kind of a culturally Mormon straight-shooting secular humanist with a sense of humor and a brain. He is where he is on life’s journey and I can respect that. (I also agree with him that it is way cooler to shoot hoops with other dudes than it is to chat and sing with nuns). He may sometimes and stir things up a little; but that’s ok, there’s obviously no malice intended. He’s also the only Mormon poster in here who answers questions candidly with intelligence and honesty.

We’ll agree to disagree, especially about the bolded parts. I think he’s the exact opposite of “straight-shooting.” He only has a sense of humor if his derrière is getting kissed to his satisfaction, and he puts the people who stand up to him on ignore. That’s real intelligent and honest, right there.

 

[LaMar]

If you really believe all that then what do you think happens after you die? And you WILL die the same as all the rest of us.

After we die? Hell, I don’t know. I suspect it’ll be something like the experience we shared before we both were born… eternal nothingness.

Someone said “let the dead bury their own dead”. Can’t remember who, (wink, wink) but it was good advice. I suppose I’ll worry about it when it happens.

What do you think happens after we die? Pie in the sky (or in the case of unbelievers like me: fry in the sky)?

 

[elt1956]

I think you just described modalism
newadvent.org/cathen/10448a.htm

I guess you are free to define - sitting in a tub of water as hunting, if you like. Only because we are in a Catholic forum; maybe we should us the Catholic definition of worship.

newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

Dear Stephen. We have invited those who are not Catholic to DISCUSS/COMMUNICATE with us so that we may learn more about each other. Objective discussion, to me, is more acceptable to this forum than an “I believe and you’re wrong” structure. How can we learn if we take offense and block whatever we don’t agrre with. I have seen too many threads on these forums deteriorate into name calling because of this attitude. My :twocents: Peace.

 

[PaulDupre]

Nah, LaMar’s cool, kind of a culturally Mormon straight-shooting secular humanist with a sense of humor and a brain. He is where he is on life’s journey and I can respect that. (I also agree with him that it is way cooler to shoot hoops with other dudes than it is to chat and sing with nuns). He may sometimes and stir things up a little; but that’s ok, there’s obviously no malice intended. He’s also the only Mormon poster in here who answers questions candidly with intelligence and honesty.

I agree. LaMar reminds me of where I was about 15 years ago. People who really think and read and research are all too rare. I like the guy a lot.

Paul