I'm LDS....let's learn from eachother.....

[Jerusha]

What would you have done if they did have Semetic blood? Join? The nephites were wiped out. If you read the book you would have known this small fact.

The “Nephites” were not wiped out. “Hagoth” and his people left in great numbers before that happenend, leaving the remainder of the “Nephites” on their own. You don’t even know your own “scriptures” that well.

 

[LaMar]

Of course, this just might be a little insulting to LaMar. In other words, LaMar is not quite there yet, but he is on his way if he chooses a the more correct path.

I don’t take anything here personally. (You, of all people, should know that). At the same time, I’m here for a specific purpose. Other people are here for other purposes, which I’m not interested in.

I admire Paul DuPre because he (unlike most) attempts to give an honest accounting of Mormonism to people who don’t know anything about it. I don’t agree with him on much, just like I don’t agree with “Why Me”, “Sister Amy” or “Hashem Echad”; but all these characters are people I’d allow to stay in my spare bedroom for the weekend if they wanted to chit-chat. Most of my best friends are people I don’t agree with on matters of faith either. No big deal.

Had I spent three weeks arguing about angels on the heads of pins, I would not know as much today about Dorothy Day & The Catholic Worker, Muhammad’s life and work, or Eriugena the Catholic Atheist.

 

[LaMar]

Gotta remember though, Demeter and Persephone were pagan constructs. Hopefully the coming of Christ changed all that. NOW we get to argue Christian philosophy and beliefs. What fun. Peace.

Philosophy is phun. Have you read Habermas and Ratzinger’s dialectics of secularization? You’d probably dig it.

I had a revelation last night (the Mormons allow that sort of thing, ya know) which instructed me to get back to my birthright religion, at least temporarily. I’m praying to the original queen of heaven on this conference weekend. (See my signature for more on this).

www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk/index1.htm
These guys were incredibly civilized. Check it out if you get a minute.

 

[J_C]

Her Father said she has always been like that, telling wild stories to everyone. I think she actually believed what she said herself.

you may have hit on something important. people who have sassumed that Joseph Smith was a liar and a con man,while that may or may not be true, should give him benefit of the doubt that the stories he told he actually believed to be true.

for instance there are people who hallucinate, people iwth chemical problems in their nervous systems, who have vivid halluciantions that involve very detailed visual and auditory components. there is no reason there wouldn’t have been such people in the early 1800s.

so when Joseph said he saw angels and God and Jesus, as well as some of th Apostles, maybe he was reporting what he actually did see in his own mind. combined with a magnetic personality and Joseph’s impressive physical presence, these stories might be convincing to vairous people whose ears were itching to hear new things.

 

[LaMar]

I don’t know where all the Mormon Dorothy Day types are now. Did the lds ever have Dorothy Day types. Maybe not. Day worked within the catholic faith and used the catechism to her advantage and for the advantage of the poor. The catholic tradition for many religious is the vow of poverty. When a person is prepared to practice detachment and a life of poverty, much time can unleashed for the poor and the down trodden and one develops empathy.

However, Mormons once a month give a fast offering for the poor. In some sense, this is their way to help the less fortunate in this world. To think about it, it is not a bad way to help others by offering a fast the first sunday of every month. It is a small price to pay for being a christian.

You should read my Grandpa’s mission journal. He went to New Hampshire and Vermont right as the depression was breaking out. People in his generation weren’t salesmen (if it’s so great, we wouldn’t have to sell it) the way these poor kids are today. They spent two years feeding people, doing home repairs for free, and other such stuff. So, yeah, Dorothy Day type activism used to be a requirement, at least for men, in the LDS tradition.

The MESJ is interesting, but they’re still not courageous enough to buck the brethren. They say so right up front. Most Mormons at the University of Utah, when I went there, joined a communist front or some other secular political organization, because there was nothing progressive that was church based. I thought that was too bad then, and I still do, though it’s a small step in the right direction.

 

[Dymphna2008]

If you think that a book written in the 14th century was available to the “masses” you’d be sadly mistaken. Most books and texts, even Biblical, were hand copied and ornately bound, and available to only a select few who could afford the high prices they fetched and actually could read. Illiteracy was the norm, people found the gospel displayed in their church’s art, and the teaching of the clergy. The Divine Comedy held to this rule as well, it was copied by hand, sold and read only by a select few with the education to do so.

If anything, the Catholic, and Christian Churches in general, must give way their ability to control congregations to the Mormons and other cults like it; Mormons have a tight rein kept on them; Catholics speak of “Catholic guilt”, but Mormons excommunicate at the slightest dissent. Catholic teaching could only go so far in having control over people, that was a state concern, really; the wishes of the Church and State often being at odds with one another.

The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve wield far more power over people’s personal lives through their religious observance than could any Catholic bishop. The silliness of making a person wear sacred underwear in order to guarantee a place in heaven baffles me and other Christians no end, but I get a really good belly laugh at how the symbols have been pinched from Masonry by Smith and Young. The Divine Comedy is a fiction, one of the great Christian tomes of the centuries, yet nevertheless fiction, and the Church knew this, and understood that Dante was not teaching dogma or doctrine, but making moral and social points in a world that Thomas Hobbes called “Nasty, brutish, and short.”

 

[why_me]

The silliness of making a person wear sacred underwear in order to guarantee a place in heaven baffles me and other Christians no end, but I get a really good belly laugh at how the symbols have been pinched from Masonry by Smith and Young.

Do you mean something like wearing a St. Christopher medal around one’ s neck for protection? Mormons wear their garments for protection and for symbolism.

Don’t you think that some christian sects get a belly laugh when they see catholics praying infront of statues of saints? All faiths are their own ways of keeping their faith. But it is good to show respect.

 

[Memaw]

Ahhh but a mormon could say the same if they wanted to be rude to you. But most likely they would not do so.

The mormons have the king james version of the bible. Many faiths use this bible. What is the true original bible? The Saint Joseph edition? NIV edition?

Pick one:

ewtnreligiouscatalogue.com/Bibles/cid=15/shop.axd/Category

They may call it the King James version but its not the same. I would like to set down and compare them with you. The true version is the Catholic Version. It has All the books that are part of the Canon. Maybe you don’t know this but you wouldn’t even have any Bible, (to misrepresent) if it weren’t for the Catholic Church.
Telling the TRUTH is never rude. You may not like it but thats your problem.

 

[Memaw]

I don’t take anything here personally. (You, of all people, should know that). At the same time, I’m here for a specific purpose. Other people are here for other purposes, which I’m not interested in.

I admire Paul DuPre because he (unlike most) attempts to give an honest accounting of Mormonism to people who don’t know anything about it. I don’t agree with him on much, just like I don’t agree with “Why Me”, “Sister Amy” or “Hashem Echad”; but all these characters are people I’d allow to stay in my spare bedroom for the weekend if they wanted to chit-chat. Most of my best friends are people I don’t agree with on matters of faith either. No big deal.

Had I spent three weeks arguing about angels on the heads of pins, I would not know as much today about Dorothy Day & The Catholic Worker, Muhammad’s life and work, or Eriugena the Catholic Atheist.

I got news for you, there is NO such thing as a Catholic atheist, I don’t care what they call themselves. You can’t be both. Can’t have it both ways. Sorry. Just another fantasy.

 

[distracted]

. I do not know how we can discuss Mormonism charitably since it is more than simply a disagreement about interpretation of the Bible or Church History. … The Book of Mormon is an outright falsehood. They even believe God the Father has a Father. How can we even discuss such heresy with charity?

It does seem to be impossible, doesn’t it?? I suppose it would be uncharitable for me to say that Mormonism is a man-made religion. Yet that is the truth.

there is only one true Church that God established (through Christ). Jesus established only ONE church (not 35,000+)… ?did you know there is a new church starting up every week in this country?

Jesus prayed for unity (St. John 17:20??) - i’m sure it is safe to say that He does not like all the divisions in Chistianity (some say that Mormonism is not Christian, objectively speaking…).
Yeah, you make a good point… maybe it is not possible.

Their only option is to repent.

I wouldn’t say that - there are tons of “optiions”…

Just not so mnay Good ones.
And there is only one perfect option, which is probably waht you meant… only one that is pleasing to God (Jesus):

Being in the Church He established.

It is not easy getting into Heaven (St. Matthew 7:21, etc…).Jesus set up his Church knowing how difficult it is for us sinners to be purified sufficiently to enter heaven… He knew we need the Sacraments… the Real Presence…

 

[why_me]

I got news for you, there is NO such thing as a Catholic atheist, I don’t care what they call themselves. You can’t be both. Can’t have it both ways. Sorry. Just another fantasy.

I want to give you a homework assignment. Please go to your public library and see if they have the magazine Psychology Today. If so, look for the February 2008 issue. In it you will find catholic atheists in the article: An Atheist in the Pulpit. It mentions a former priest who turned atheist. He is not alone only among many from other faiths.

The article also mentions ‘cultural catholics’. Such catholics can be atheists.

 

[Memaw]

I want to give you a homework assignment. Please go to your public library and see if they have the magazine Psychology Today. If so, look for the February 2008 issue. In it you will find catholic atheists in the article: An Atheist in the Pulpit. It mentions a former priest who turned atheist. He is not alone only among many from other faiths.

The article also mentions ‘cultural catholics’. Such catholics can be atheists.

Like I said, NO MATTER what they call themselves, they can’t be both. I can call myself an artist but I bet you no one would buy my paintings!

 

[LaMar]

I want to give you a homework assignment. Please go to your public library and see if they have the magazine Psychology Today. If so, look for the February 2008 issue. In it you will find catholic atheists in the article: An Atheist in the Pulpit. It mentions a former priest who turned atheist. He is not alone only among many from other faiths.

The article also mentions ‘cultural catholics’. Such catholics can be atheists.

Thank you very much for posting that reference. Those who are interested can read it for free here:

psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=20071228-000003&page=2

John Dehlin has an episode in his great Mormon Matters podcast which deals with reconstructionism. I think it’s called “how to remain in the church”.

There are lots of people who recognize Mormonism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, etc. as being the primary vehicle for promoting civilization. Many of us don’t feel the need to recognize any sort of literal interpretation of mythology, but at the same time we don’t feel obligated to throw all the good of these traditions out, simply because we live in the real world. So yes, there are Catholic Atheists, and Mormon Atheists, and Jewish Atheists, and we’ll stay where we are regardless of whether or not anyone else approves.

 

[PaulDupre]

Of course, this just might be a little insulting to LaMar. In other words, LaMar is not quite there yet, but he is on his way if he chooses a the more correct path.

Not at all. I said nothing about where he may or may not end up, just where he is now, with attitudes and beliefs much like mine at the same point in my life. LaMar may not make any of the life choices I made but it makes no difference to how much I like and respect him.

Don’t be so judgmental.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

What would you have done if they did have Semetic blood? Join? The nephites were wiped out. If you read the book you would have known this small fact.

The Lamanites, “the principle ancestors of the American Indians”, also descended from Lehi would share the same semitic DNA as the Nephites and would have passed it on to their descendants. The fact that the Amerindians have no Semitic DNA markers proves that the BoM is false.

It is also completely impossible for any civilization, especially a great literate and technological civilization like that of the Nephites, to leave no trace after its demise. The fact that there is not a single shred of evidence of their fairly recent existence makes it clear that such a civilization never existed.

This video is an eye-opener. I challenge you to watch it.

Paul

 

[RC_Matt]

Do you mean something like wearing a St. Christopher medal around one’ s neck for protection? Mormons wear their garments for protection and for symbolism.

Dude, no offence intended, but there’s a world of difference between a holy medal and garments. I’m not being judgmental, nor “anti-Mormon,” I’m just pointing out that your comparison is not valid. For example, I have a holy medal that my parents gave me on confirmation. I wear that because they gave it to me, it’s nice (gold too – I was pretty surprised they sprang for something like that – very out of character), it will always remind me of them, that day, and the significance of that day. I’ll pass it down to somebody else some day too. Unlike the case of Mormons/garments, I am not required to wear it, nor do I think it makes me any holier than anybody else, nor do I expect it to protect me from anything. And yes, I know there are Catholics who wear medals for the wrong reasons; however, that is goofy superstition and not core dogma.

Don’t you think that some christian sects get a belly laugh when they see catholics praying infront of statues of saints? All faiths are their own ways of keeping their faith. But it is good to show respect.

Dang, here we go with the statues again… Please show me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where is says we’re encouraged, or supposed, or required to pray in front of statues. I must have missed that point somewhere along the line; I always thought they were there to contribute to the ambiance and to remind us of people who have lived holy lives.

 

[ibkc]

This video is an eye-opener. I challenge you to watch it.

Anyone who claims that there is no historical basis for the Bible and that therefore, Christianity and Mormonism are equivalent, should watch this. It’s quite good.

 

[Memaw]

Thank you very much for posting that reference. Those who are interested can read it for free here:

psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=20071228-000003&page=2

John Dehlin has an episode in his great Mormon Matters podcast which deals with reconstructionism. I think it’s called “how to remain in the church”.

There are lots of people who recognize Mormonism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, etc. as being the primary vehicle for promoting civilization. Many of us don’t feel the need to recognize any sort of literal interpretation of mythology, but at the same time we don’t feel obligated to throw all the good of these traditions out, simply because we live in the real world. So yes, there are Catholic Atheists, and Mormon Atheists, and Jewish Atheists, and we’ll stay where we are regardless of whether or not anyone else approves.

Really, who do you think you are fooling, certainly not God.

 

[Memaw]

Dude, no offence intended, but there’s a world of difference between a holy medal and garments. I’m not being judgmental, nor “anti-Mormon,” I’m just pointing out that your comparison is not valid. For example, I have a holy medal that my parents gave me on confirmation. I wear that because they gave it to me, it’s nice (gold too – I was pretty surprised they sprang for something like that – very out of character), it will always remind me of them, that day, and the significance of that day. I’ll pass it down to somebody else some day too. Unlike the case of Mormons/garments, I am not required to wear it, nor do I think it makes me any holier than anybody else, nor do I expect it to protect me from anything. And yes, I know there are Catholics who wear medals for the wrong reasons; however, that is goofy superstition and not core dogma.

Dang, here we go with the statues again… Please show me in the Catechism of the Catholic Church where is says we’re encouraged, or supposed, or required to pray in front of statues. I must have missed that point somewhere along the line; I always thought they were there to contribute to the ambiance and to remind us of people who have lived holy lives.

Sorry R C Matt but you need a good class in your Catholic Faith, and especially in the use and understanding of Sacramentals. If the holy Medal your parents gave you for Confirmation means no more to you than that, then they wasted their efforts. Just explain to me what you mean when you say there is a world of difference between a Holy Medal and a garment. According to you, wearing a holy medal is not much different than wearing a watch or ring.

 

[PaulDupre]

About sacramentals, From The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1

1667 “Holy Mother Church has, moreover, instituted sacramentals. These are sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy.”

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 1

1668 Sacramentals are instituted for the sanctification of certain ministries of the Church, certain states of life, a great variety of circumstances in Christian life, and the use of many things helpful to man. In accordance with bishops’ pastoral decisions, they can also respond to the needs, culture, and special history of the Christian people of a particular region or time. They always include a prayer, often accompanied by a specific sign, such as the laying on of hands, the sign of the cross, or the sprinkling of holy water (which recalls Baptism).

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 1

1669 Sacramentals derive from the baptismal priesthood: every baptized person is called to be a “blessing,” and to bless. Hence lay people may preside at certain blessings; the more a blessing concerns ecclesial and sacramental life, the more is its administration reserved to the ordained ministry (bishops, priests, or deacons).

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 1

1670 Sacramentals do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it. “For well-disposed members of the faithful, the liturgy of the sacraments and sacramentals sanctifies almost every event of their lives with the divine grace which flows from the Paschal mystery of the Passion, Death, and Resurrection of Christ. From this source all sacraments and sacramentals draw their power. There is scarcely any proper use of material things which cannot be thus directed toward the sanctification of men and the praise of God.”

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 2

1671 Among sacramentals blessings (of persons, meals, objects, and places) come first. Every blessing praises God and prays for his gifts. In Christ, Christians are blessed by God the Father “with every spiritual blessing.” This is why the Church imparts blessings by invoking the name of Jesus, usually while making the holy sign of the cross of Christ.

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 3

1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church’s sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals, etc.

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 3

1677 Sacramentals are sacred signs instituted by the Church. They prepare men to receive the fruit of the sacraments and sanctify different circumstances of life.

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 4, Article 1, Heading 3

1678 Among the sacramentals blessings occupy an important place. They include both praise of God for his works and gifts, and the Church’s intercession for men that they may be able to use God’s gifts according to the spirit of the Gospel.

Paul