I'm leaving Catholicism

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Jesus didn’t say - and he never said - he was God and never does the NT call him ‘God the son’. He said that anyone who has seen him and the works that he does has seen the Father. He said all along that the Father sent him. Can the Father send Himself?
The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his work
If Jesus WAS both fully God and fully man, he would NOT say, “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority.”

If Jesus IS God, then he’s a fraud, the sinless life of Christ is meaningless, and the cross is a hoax.

We know that God cannot be tempted and He cannot sin, correct? That means the Trinity doctrine teaching that Jesus is 100% God destroys the efficacy of the cross and ultimately makes Jesus a fraud and the cross a hoax.

James 1:13 “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:”
 
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What the Pharisees thought was meaningless to truth. Didn’t Jesus reply, “Are YE not Gods?”
 
No it doesn’t! That verse doesn’t show co-equality! What Jesus is indicating isn’t much different than "Jesus and the holy spirit being in us!
 
What Jesus is indicating isn’t much different than "Jesus and the holy spirit being in us!
Exactly. How can a mortal man be “in” us or be with us forever?

And finally… why baptize in name of Father the Son and the Holy Spirit? In other words, why baptize in name of God, Mortal and , and not just in name of God himself? Such thing is unprecedented.
 
Forgive me if someone has already brought this up; I have read through some of this thread but I confess, I haven’t read everything.

First, you have demonstrated a keen mind, and I value your passion for philosophy and for sticking to the principle of noncontradiction.

I will only suggest this, and hopefully it is not too naive or expressive of my simple mind. I hold no degrees, am no intellectual, and my ongoing depression limits what already limited powers of thought I possess! If it is unhelpful or asinine, I apologize!

Obviously, you know we believe that the Trinity is one of the dogmas that falls under Special/Divine revelation. That is, a truth that we could arrive at through the powers of our own natural reasoning. We could not move from what is known to this truth. But, like you say, these truths cannot be illogical or self-contradictory; if we are being asked to square the circle and accept it by faith, then yes, we should abandon that. You appear to have thought about this carefully, and I believe it is something important to you and that you are not just out to prove us and the Church wrong. You seek after Truth (and of course we would say you are, therefore, still seeking after Christ). That said, I agree with Wesrock and his presentation of St. Thomas’ argument, but I appreciate how difficult this is, for we are trying to fit the Essence of God into our minds as God has revealed Himself.

Preamble over–my addition is this: I often ask myself when looking at dogmas of special revelation, how does this aid my thinking? I’m sure you know that we believe this to be suprarational, that they perfect our reasoning. So what does this perfect? What missing piece of the puzzle does this provide? In my understanding, it explains to me why God created. If God is simple as you suggest, with no real distinction in Persons, if He is closer to the God of Islam, then I simply cannot understand (perhaps this is a product of my own stupidity) why He created to begin with. For God is perfect, lacking nothing at all, and had nothing to achieve or perfect in creating. But like Romano Guardini says in his work The Lord, love does these things. We believe God is Love, that He freely chose to give Himself to us, in our very act of participating in some measure in His being (which extends to all of creation in varying degrees). God’s inner nature of Love among His three Persons, His being eternally in love with Himself, that He is Love, this explains to me why I exist–for love does these things. Sometimes I find myself doubting whether I have reconciled what you are struggling with, for it is a great and difficult subject and I am little and simple. But then I keep coming back to why am I here, why was I made at all. And when I look at Aristotle and Plato, I see them unable to explain how the Prime Mover or the God of the Forms makes contact with creation, to say nothing as to why. Maybe you have a reason why a God who lives in isolation, who therefore cannot be said to be Love, creates. But any one I have seen is more a problem to the truth of Divine Simplicity than the Trinity–the Trinity reconciles, for me, Divine Simplicity and creation.
 
We know that God cannot be tempted and He cannot sin, correct? That means the Trinity doctrine teaching that Jesus is 100% God destroys the efficacy of the cross and ultimately makes Jesus a fraud.
I’m guessing you’ve got a major problem with the incarnation then as well, no?
 
If you define the incarnation as God becoming man, yes I disagree. If you define the incarnation as the son of God taking on human flesh, I agree.
 
I think you misunderstand the Hypostatic union, Jesus has 2 natures, his human nature could be tempted, but his divine nature could not and could never sin. This is how Jesus can be both God and man and how he can be tempted and yet not sin.
 
I think you misunderstand the Hypostatic union, Jesus has 2 natures, his human nature could be tempted, but his divine nature could not and could never sin. This is how Jesus can be both God and man and how he can be tempted and yet not sin.
That’s the typical trinitarian ‘cop out’ answer to every issue and contradiction. It really makes no sense. Trinity teaches that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man AT THE SAME TIME. You have no idea how often I’ve heard, “that’s because Jesus was speaking from his humanity.”

OR

“That’s because Jesus was speaking from his divinity.”

Sorry, but that’s not an answer, and simply an excuse!
 
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ColoradoCatholic:
I think you misunderstand the Hypostatic union, Jesus has 2 natures, his human nature could be tempted, but his divine nature could not and could never sin. This is how Jesus can be both God and man and how he can be tempted and yet not sin.
That’s the typical trinitarian ‘cop out’ answer to every issue and contradiction. It really makes no sense. Trinity teaches that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man AT THE SAME TIME. You have no idea how often I’ve heard, “that’s because Jesus was speaking from his humanity.”

OR

“That’s because Jesus was speaking from his divinity.”

Sorry, but that’s not an answer, and simply an excuse!
Why isn’t it an answer? The Church discussed and resolved heresies on this over 1500 years ago.
 
Whenever there’s a contradiction that’s the line trinitarians resort to. It doesn’t answer anything, it’s an excuse!

Example, Jesus said,

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The question, “How can Jesus and God be EQUAL when Jesus said the Father is greater?”

Trinitarian answer: (NOT an answer) -

“That’s because Jesus was speaking from his humanity”

That does NOT resolve the contradiction because you’re basically saying the TRINITY - Jesus being co-equal to God and the holy spirit - is the answer to Jesus’ words of God being greater!
 
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Plenty of people here want to answer you, I’m sure. Why not make another thread for this so we don’t derail?
 
Trinitarian answer: (NOT an answer) -

“That’s because Jesus was speaking from his humanity”
That’s not just a “Trinitarian” answer. It’s truth. From Hebrews 2:9:

“At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him. 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.”

And from Philippians 2:

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness
.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!”

Humility friend. This is what Jesus personified. The whole point of God’s love for us is that he humbled himself - ultimately - and came to be one of us - in Christ. I’ll refrain from derailing the thread further - but me thinks you try too hard to fit the square peg in the octagonal hole…
 
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It seems to me that you are not willing or open to receive any form of an answer but your own. The hypo-static union has been core christian teaching since the very early church. That IS the answer, if you are not willing to accept that because you don’t want to that is your issue, but it doesn’t make you right.

saying that my answer is a “cop out” is really just nonsensical. That would be like you asking me: why is 1+1=2?
to which I respond: well because if you have two similar things and put them together you now have 2.
If you responded by saying: “oh that’s just a cop out, EVERYONE who I ask this question always says that! why can’t you really explain it to me?” well it seems to me that you aren’t really interested in learning, but you are just here to tell people they are wrong.
 
It seems to me that you are not willing or open to receive any form of an answer but your own. The hypo-static union has been core christian teaching since the very early church. That IS the answer, if you are not willing to accept that because you don’t want to that is your issue, but it doesn’t make you right.
The flipside of that coin is that just because it has been a teaching since the very early church doesn’t make it any less of a logical contradiction.
 
For it to be a “logical contradiction” you would have to back that up. I have provided a logical answer:

That Jesus has two natures. He was one person, God the Son, who took on human nature in order to sacrifice himself and allow humanity to rescue themselves from eternal damnation if they so choose. His human nature was able to experience temptation, pain, emotion, in short…to empathize with us to the extent that He could whilst also having a second Divine Nature, that was incapable of committing sin. Sin is far different than temptation. The Divine Nature of the Son is unchanging just as God is unchanging and has no “parts” this is why it was good to have a human nature for us…not for Him.
 
saying that my answer is a “cop out” is really just nonsensical. That would be like you asking me: why is 1+1=2?
to which I respond: well because if you have two similar things and put them together you now have 2.
This misunderstands mathematics. 1+1 = 2 as a direct consequence of mathematical definitions. The hypostatic union does not work this way.

How it does work is as follows:
  1. The hypostatic union must be believed because of religious doctrine, so it is asserted to be true.
  2. There is no way to explicitly define the terms used in the hypostatic union which
    A. Resolves the apparent contradiction
    B. Doesn’t deviate so far from the ordinary meaning of the words that it renders the doctrine nonsensical
  3. Because of 2, it is asserted to be a mystery which means you hide your refusal to define your terms behind the assertion that you are not quite sure what the doctrine actually means
  4. Because the terms in your doctrine are now undefined, no critic can show it to to be self-contradictory, and if they do you can simply assert they’ve used the wrong definition for some term in the doctrine.
 
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