'I'm no Marxist', Pope Francis tells conservative critics

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When trickle down has entirely different connotations in the American English context than it does in the Latin American context, it is a poor translation to use that term in English.
The pope merits no criticism for this, since few peoples can be as multilingual as St John Paul II was. On the other hand, the Vatican translators do merit criticism for either intentionally or inadvertently sparking the controversy in America that they did through their poor translations skills.
 
Darryl1958 said:
When trickle down has entirely different connotations in the American English context than it does in the Latin American context, it is a poor translation to use that term in English.
The pope merits no criticism for this, since few peoples can be as multilingual as St John Paul II was. On the other hand, the Vatican translators do merit criticism for either intentionally or inadvertently sparking the controversy in America that they did through their poor translations skills.
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Bad translations can be fixed. Has it been fixed?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Bad translations can be fixed. Has it been fixed?
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I am very open to the possibility that the bad translation was intentional on behalf of the Vatican staff members in charge of such things.
There is a large contingent of Catholics that desire that this inference be used. I would be surprised if there were not people that would jump at the chance to have it translated exactly as it was, even if it did not properly convey what the pope was saying in the context that he said it.
 
Take a look at the latest from Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam: 🙂

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2014
A verrrrrrry interesting thing…
I interrupt my efforts to retranslate, correctly, Evangelii Gaudium with a little news snippet.“Pope Francis on Tuesday called on the world’s political and business elite gathered in Davos to use their spirit of entrepreneurship to alleviate crushing global poverty.”

He said: “Those who have demonstrated their aptitude for being innovative and for improving the lives of many people by their ingenuity and professional expertise can further contribute by putting their skills at the service of those who are still living in dire poverty.”

He also called for “…the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality.”

One thing to beware of, and I’ve alluded to in my translation is the use of the word “distribution” which we, in English associate with “RE-distribution.” In Italian/Spanish that word carries more of a statistics meaning; think of “frequency distribution.” The Pope is NOT calling for RE-distribution of anything (in fact, you will note he specifically wants to move past “welfare”) and, you should further kindly note, he is also not asking business elite-types for money. He is asking them to use their business skills to help alleviate global poverty.
posted by JM Garcia @ 9:25 AM
jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/
 
KSU said:
Take a look at the latest from Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam: 🙂

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 22, 2014
A verrrrrrry interesting thing…
I interrupt my efforts to retranslate, correctly, Evangelii Gaudium with a little news snippet.“Pope Francis on Tuesday called on the world’s political and business elite gathered in Davos to use their spirit of entrepreneurship to alleviate crushing global poverty.”

He said: “Those who have demonstrated their aptitude for being innovative and for improving the lives of many people by their ingenuity and professional expertise can further contribute by putting their skills at the service of those who are still living in dire poverty.”

He also called for “…the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality.”

One thing to beware of, and I’ve alluded to in my translation is the use of the word “distribution” which we, in English associate with “RE-distribution.” In Italian/Spanish that word carries more of a statistics meaning; think of “frequency distribution.” The Pope is NOT calling for RE-distribution of anything (in fact, you will note he specifically wants to move past “welfare”) and, you should further kindly note, he is also not asking business elite-types for money. He is asking them to use their business skills to help alleviate global poverty.
posted by JM Garcia @ 9:25 AM
jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/
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I sure hope this is right but I think it’s fair to note that calling on the rich to do something for the poor “beyond a simple welfare mentality” doesn’t rule out more welfare. I’ll have more confidence when I see Pope Francis speaking out strongly against welfare dependency and the politicians who ride it to power.
 
By (name removed by moderator)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Silence :
I disagree with Francis. Those that choose something bad are therefore not good in themselves. Marxism is pure evil; and it must be run out of towns; stridently. End quote.

Rather ironic as an outlook given the fruits of states claiming to be run on Marxist principles.​

Folks, let’s not fall into the trap set by the enemies of the Church who read into the words of Francis things that simply aren’t there. Examples:

theweek.com/article/index/253452/pope-francis-hates-trickle-down-economics-but-he-isnt-a-liberal
And

worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/22/21984495-who-am-i-to-judge-the-popes-most-powerful-phrase-in-2013?lite

Pope Francis detests the sins of Marxism/Socialism/homosexualism as much as any pope. Nor is he softening the teaching of the Church one bit. I admit, though, that if I were Francis, I would make a scourge of cords, and cast many out of the press office and Vatican bank, and overthrow their tables. Then I would visit the American Catholic church (not to be confused with the Roman Catholic Church in America).
 
Catholic teaching is not, nor has it ever been against patriotism. Catholic teaching may certainly be subversive against individual morality centred on the ego, but it is not subversive against the nation, not even against the Roman empire which crucified Christ himself.
 
Darryl1958 said:
Catholic teaching is not, nor has it ever been against patriotism. Catholic teaching may certainly be subversive against individual morality centred on the ego, but it is not subversive against the nation, not even against the Roman empire which crucified Christ himself.
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Agreed. Catholic teaching is not, nor has it ever been against patriotism. In fact, were it not for the moral white lines enunciated and protected by the Catholic Church, America long ago would have become Europe. And, were it not for traditional American values (currently under attack by anti-traditional secular and religious elements in this country), the Catholic Church in America would be a shadow of its current state.

And of course you’re correct, Catholic teaching has never been subversive. But then Governor Cuomo might take exception.When I was young, I never fully understood what John Adams meant when he said, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

The authentic Catholic Church in America, together with traditional (i.e., constitutional) American values, makes for an historic, unbeatable partnership referred to as American exceptionalism–rights are bestowed by God, not by the government or voters.

Pope Francis and all of Rome are fully aware of the freedoms bestowed on the Church by the American Constitution. I would pay to be in the room when B.O. and Francis sit down together this March, but I just had a horrible thought–everything they say to each other will have to be translated, and what is released by the Vatican press office will be a translation of that:eek:
 
KSU said:
By (name removed by moderator)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson_Silence :
I disagree with Francis. Those that choose something bad are therefore not good in themselves. Marxism is pure evil; and it must be run out of towns; stridently. End quote.

Rather ironic as an outlook given the fruits of states claiming to be run on Marxist principles.​

Folks, let’s not fall into the trap set by the enemies of the Church who read into the words of Francis things that simply aren’t there. Examples:

theweek.com/article/index/253452/pope-francis-hates-trickle-down-economics-but-he-isnt-a-liberal
And

worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/22/21984495-who-am-i-to-judge-the-popes-most-powerful-phrase-in-2013?lite

Pope Francis detests the sins of Marxism/Socialism/homosexualism as much as any pope. Nor is he softening the teaching of the Church one bit. I admit, though, that if I were Francis, I would make a scourge of cords, and cast many out of the press office and Vatican bank, and overthrow their tables. Then I would visit the American Catholic church (not to be confused with the Roman Catholic Church in America).
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Condemning all of socialism is naive given its positive aspects! It’s not all evil!
 
KSU said:
… but I just had a horrible thought–everything they say to each other will have to be translated, and what is released by the Vatican press office will be a translation of that:eek:
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It just occurred to you? 🙂 I tremble when any two leaders speaking different languages come to the table. Have you ever watched or read “Fail Safe”?
 
ProVobis said:
It just occurred to you? 🙂 I tremble when any two leaders speaking different languages come to the table. Have you ever watched or read “Fail Safe”?
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If I recall, given the final gravity of the situation, the Fail Safe translators were trying to be accurate and objective. In this case, however, the WH press office probably already wrote its press release:

President Obama’s hallmark battle against the American forces of “trickle-down” economics-- the anti-tax, anti-regulation greed and inequality he has labored against his entire career-- found a natural ally in the pope who attacked the same forces at eloquent length late last year.

Despite a few, unrelated differences in their social philosophy, the two champions of justice, peace and equality agreed at the meeting to carry on their struggle on behalf of the victims of inequality–immigrants and the poor --with renewed vigor.

The same forces of inequality, which continue to depress the poor in America, have tarred the president as a “Socialist” and the pope as a “Marxist”. Francis had brushed aside that intended criticism by American Conservatives, saying, " I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended.”
 
Blaming the foreigner (particularly of the Anglo-Saxon variety) has a long pedigree in Argentina. It can be seen in Juan Peron’s drive for something approaching economic autarky, and in the long-standing suspicion of globalization that can be heard in the comments of many Argentines today, including, not least, the current pope (“we don’t want this globalized economic system which does us so much harm”).
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Andrew Stuttaford takes a swipe at Pope Francis in discussing Argentina’s implosion. I wish I could say with confidence that it is an undeserved attack.

nationalreview.com/corner/370128/weimargentina-looking-someone-blame-andrew-stuttaford
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
Andrew Stuttaford takes a swipe at Pope Francis in discussing Argentina’s implosion. I wish I could say with confidence that it is an undeserved attack.

nationalreview.com/corner/370128/weimargentina-looking-someone-blame-andrew-stuttaford
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It’s safe to say we don’t fully understand all aspects of what is termed “globalization” by Argentineans, or their particular history with it. Aside from its blind idolization of money, we simply don’t know the specifics of the evils inherent in the “globalization” to which Francis was objecting: “We don’t want this globalized economic system which does us so much harm,” .

Francis was referring to the world system, not to Argentina alone, when he made that comment in Italy. And Andrew Stuttford, if in fact he was taking a swipe at Pope Francis, didn’t have the courage to make it clear. If you believe it was a swipe, and that it may be a deserved swipe, you should say so and explain why.

Of course I could be wrong, but I think Stuttaford’s comment was just a knee-jerk reaction without any research to back it up. He should have read this thread first.
 
KSU said:
It’s safe to say we don’t fully understand all aspects of what is termed “globalization” by Argentineans, or their particular history with it. Aside from its blind idolization of money, we simply don’t know the specifics of the evils inherent in the “globalization” to which Francis was objecting: “We don’t want this globalized economic system which does us so much harm,” .

Francis was referring to the world system, not to Argentina alone, when he made that comment in Italy. And Andrew Stuttford, if in fact he was taking a swipe at Pope Francis, didn’t have the courage to make it clear. If you believe it was a swipe, and that it may be a deserved swipe, you should say so and explain why.

Of course I could be wrong, but I think Stuttaford’s comment was just a knee-jerk reaction without any research to back it up. He should have read this thread first.
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I’m in a “wait and see” frame of mind. But, as I’ve mentioned in this thread and others, it’s hard to let go of the idea that Pope Francis’ views of capitalism were influenced by the Argentinian experience and it’s politics. The attack on Pope Francis was an aside to an article that runs through Argentinia’s ugly history. I suspect that the author thinks Pope Francis shares the Argentinian view of globalization and capitalism as an enemy of enlightened politics. Is that an unfair view?
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
I’m in a “wait and see” frame of mind. But, as I’ve mentioned in this thread and others, it’s hard to let go of the idea that Pope Francis’ views of capitalism were influenced by the Argentinian experience and it’s politics. The attack on Pope Francis was an aside to an article that runs through Argentinia’s ugly history. I suspect that the author thinks Pope Francis shares the Argentinian view of globalization and capitalism as an enemy of enlightened politics. Is that an unfair view?
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Francis has experienced a form of globalization of which he said, “We don’t want this globalized economic system which does us so much harm."

Since neither you nor Andrew Stuttford tell us what that particular system is, or the great harm to which the Pope refers, how can you even consider the possibility that Francis is an enemy of capitalism and enlightened politics? And how did you manage to slip capitalism into the issue when the form of capitalism you and I know and love, does not exist in Argentina?

So, yes, it may be an unfair view of the Pope. From that perspective, don’t you agree?
 
KSU said:
Francis has experienced a form of globalization of which he said, “We don’t want this globalized economic system which does us so much harm."

Since neither you nor Andrew Stuttford tell us what that particular system is, or the great harm to which the Pope refers, how can you even consider the possibility that Francis is an enemy of capitalism and enlightened politics? And how did you manage to slip capitalism into the issue when the form of capitalism you and I know and love, does not exist in Argentina?

So, yes, it may be an unfair view of the Pope. From that perspective, don’t you agree?
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I think Andrew Stuttford is making the assumption that Pope Francis shares the Argentinian view of globalized economics and capitalism (of which Argentina is an “innocent victim”). Argentinian politicians (and they are far from unique in this) seem to expect investors to give them money when they need it and are shocked when those same investors resent being taken to the cleaners and withdraw their support, as seems to be happening now.

I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with Andrew on this. But it is at least plausible. Obviously I hope that it is an unfair attack and that Pope Francis does not share the same view of capitalism as Argentina’s political leaders do.
 
I am coming to the conclusion that popes are probably not the best people to go to for economic advise. 🙂
 
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