D
Darryl1958
Guest
Am I right that you are describing Kaninchen as ‘Left Wing’?
The response itself played according to that playbook.
- Status
The response itself played according to that playbook.
K
KSU
Guest
Kaninchen: “I’m no Marxist” is] not a storm in a Talk Radio - ‘anybody against sending toddlers to work down the mines is a commie rat’ - teacup by any chance?
I suppose everything is relative. Old Tory that I am, sometimes an hour or so on CAF makes me feel like ‘storming the Winter Palace’!
Well, my friend, on the 4th of July, 1776 (and speaking about teacups, not three years after the Boston Tea Party)* the U.S. congress proclaimed the Declaration of Independence, and George Washington and Marxism/Socialism took care of what was left of Merry Old Toryland.So, what do European Tories do these days? If, you came to this site to learn about the real Pope Francis and Catholicism, and the closely related truth behind the (undeserved) gift of American Exceptionalism, welcome.
You came just in time because many Americans seem to want to fritter away both of those gifts, just as Henry the VII did. BTW, Merry Old England will never again exist until the Court of St James’s once again embraces pre-Henry the VIII Catholicism.
If you’ve read the entire thread, you should have learned that Francis, like all his predecessors, doesn’t like Marxism, and even if he did (an absurdity) he does not have authority to change Church doctrine. What started out as a mere storm in a teacup (Rush Limbaugh initially believing what the media said Francis said) has been intentionally mischaracterized and exacerbated by the media, eventually dragging in poor Francis himself, who, BTW, shrewdly defused the storm in his LaStampa interview. I’d bet that both Limbaugh, an admirer of the pope, and Francis are laughing at the predictable sillyness.
- “Tea Party”. Has a nice ring to it.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Silliness indeed, I was merely wondering - as you might have noticed if you hadn’t been so wrapped up in effrontery at lèse-majesté against all that is great and good about America - whether anybody outside the ‘I’m more Conservative than you are! No, I’m more Conservative than you are! No, I’m more Conservative than any of you!’ (or so it seems) world of American political discourse was indulging in it.
As far as Francis is concerned, at least the Papacy is safely back in the hands of Italians (even if ex-pat) but I’m half-Italian and would think that.
Oh, I think throwing something/some things American into Boston (Lincolnshire) harbour would be a grand idea.
- “Tea Party”. Has a nice ring to it.
S
Silvio_Dante
Guest
Why are you all so obsessed with Marxism?
Leave it out of the equation.
Pope Francis has been clearly and succinctly critical of a market system that allows millions of people being dispossessed and living below the poverty line. Left us in no doubt as to his anger of witnessing the poor of the Third World being enslaved by Western economics.
His words are there for all to hear and read.
If some choose to set up Marxist Strawmen to deflect from his message then so be it.
His truth is not diminished and his rebukes for our collective greed undeniable…
Leave it out of the equation.
Pope Francis has been clearly and succinctly critical of a market system that allows millions of people being dispossessed and living below the poverty line. Left us in no doubt as to his anger of witnessing the poor of the Third World being enslaved by Western economics.
His words are there for all to hear and read.
If some choose to set up Marxist Strawmen to deflect from his message then so be it.
His truth is not diminished and his rebukes for our collective greed undeniable…
D
Darryl1958
Guest
And that is the real shame. There is a real lack in Catholic intelligensia and theology when it comes to standing up for economic systems that have a proven track record of success.
C
Catolico65
Guest
There doesn’t have to be because the default preference is anything but communism or totalitarianism but with social services for the poor.
A
anthony022071
Guest
The thing is that the preference for government social services by Church leaders and social justice committees amounts to support for the comprehensive welfare state,or socialism,that already exists in Western countries,and which is weakening people’s motivation and morality.
C
Catolico65
Guest
This is not plausible given the Catholic Bishops very clear directive regarding voting in accordance with our beliefs.
As far as priests voting for social service in LA they do because mostly there are none, as opposed to the US, which we can thank FDR for.
D
Darryl1958
Guest
First, I note that you implicitly agree with me that those Catholic ecclessiastical voices lauding successful economic systems are not there.
Now to say that there doesn’t have to be, when the evidence is that liberation theology in Latin America is so large a presence, is to show a real indifference to what is happening in Latin America.
On the one hand, there are the traditional voices of fascistic tendencies that have been there since at least Franco has served as a prototype, and on the other there is the various shades of pseudo-Marxist liberation theologies.
Both are terrible systems, but those are the choices for Latin America. I think it is a shame, frankly.
C
Catolico65
Guest
There are a lot of theories out there in LA, but liberation theory is not tolerated by the Vatican. Yes there are rogue priests who actively promote this but their time is numbered unless they repent and step back in line.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
The problem with this line of argument is that it creates artificial and misleading categories.
I have a car. My car doesn’t feed the poor. Does that make it an immoral car? No, the purpose of the car is not to feed the poor. I can, though, use my car to carry food to the poor.
Likewise, the purpose of a market system is not to feed the poor but to find the most efficient and effective alllocation of finite resources including natural resources and human effort. Likewise, a corporation seeks to maximize profit by selling goods and services at the best price to the most customers at the lowest cost.
You could demand that a corporation serve the poor but the better choices it to expect the owners and workers to use some of their profits and salaries to help the poor. Similarly, there are many ways that the poor benefit from a market system including charity outside it.
If Pope Francis were merely calling on everyone (especially the rich) to be more charitable to the poor there would be no controversy whatsoever.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Interestingly, every modern pope, including Pope Francis, has recognized and spoken out on this problem, though it never gets the press that attacks on free markets do.
K
KSU
Guest
There was no greater “lèse-majesté against all that is great and good” than that of Henry VIII? N’est-ce pas?
While Italians have made great popes (my favorite is Leo XIII), the recent Pole and German the world (except the USSR) was blessed with will be hard to beat.
I, too, would like to throw some things American into Boston Harbor; everybody else seems to. I think that’s where “trickle-down” began.
See, Conservatives and Tories can agree. Lighten up, my friend.
K
KSU
Guest
You’re correct, Anthony; there are a gaggle of Religious, Clergy and at least a couple of committees in the USCCB which routinely do that. They even fancy themselves competent to support Democrat proposed infringment of 2nd Amendment rights.
But, because they merely are singing to their own choir, you, I, right-thinking Bishops and laymen, and the Congressional Committees they write letters to don’t pay much attention.
Interview with Archbishop Charles Chaput (CNS/Catholic Standard and Times/Sarah Webb) 9-14-12:
Q–What about the wing of the church that says a party that supports the Ryan budget also ought to cause concern?
A–Jesus tells us very clearly that if we don’t help the poor, we’re going to go to hell. Period. There’s just no doubt about it. That has to be a foundational concern of Catholics and of all Christians. But Jesus didn’t say the government has to take care of them, or that we have to pay taxes to take care of them. Those are prudential judgments. Anybody who would condemn someone because of their position on taxes is making a leap that I can’t make as a Catholic. … You can’t say that somebody’s not Christian because they want to limit taxation. Again, I’m speaking only for myself, but I think that’s a legitimate position. It may not be the correct one, but it’s certainly a legitimate Catholic position; and to say that it’s somehow intrinsically evil like abortion doesn’t make any sense at all.
Q–That said, do you find the Ryan budget troubling?
A–The Ryan budget isn’t the budget I would write. I think he’s trying to deal with the same issue in the government I’m dealing with here locally, which is spending more than we bring in. I admire the courage of anyone who’s actually trying to solve the problems rather than paper over them. I think a vigorous debate about the issues, rather than the personalities, is the way through this problem. It’s immoral for us to continue to spend money we don’t have. I think that those persons who don’t want to deal with the issue are, in some ways, doing wrong by putting it off for their own political protection or the protection of their party.ncronline.org/news/faith-parish/chaput-philly-swims-against-nostalgia-and-red-ink
And this: In his homily of 4-24-13, Pope Francis reiterated his warning against the Church acting as an NGO: a non-governmental charitable group. He decried the tendency to “make offices and become somewhat bureaucratic.”
And this from Pope Francis (who I think was speaking directly to Bubba Switzler
): “I say that politics is the most important of the civil activities and has its own field of action, which is not that of religion. Political institutions are secular by definition and operate in independent spheres. All my predecessors have said the same thing, for many years at least, albeit with different accents. I believe that Catholics involved in politics carry the values of their religion within them, but have the mature awareness and expertise to implement them. The Church will never go beyond its task of expressing and disseminating its values, at least as long as I’m here”. catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=1118
C
Catolico65
Guest
Are you proposing this as it’s purpose or is this your stated understanding?
In this case that you propose this is the real purpose of the market system levying taxes and applying all sorts of regulations would be in conflict with said. The reality is there are few pure free market systems except what you see in open air markets.
Given your statements I believe you have a narrow view of free market systems and their variations and functions because what the Pope is proposing is not really any different than what is done in most countries, levying taxes and regulating trade, but only changing the “recipe”.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
Much of the confusion above is, as I suggested, one of where boundaries are drawn. Saying, for example, that a free market system levies taxes obviously includes government in the free market system. But would you also say that the free market system holds Mass? It does if you include the Catholic Church in it. More importantly, does the free market system include charitable organizations like Catholic Charities? If you exclude Catholic Charities then the free market system will obviously not appear as caring for the poor as it would by including it.
Let’s look first at the corporation which is much easier to understand. We have both for-profit corporations and non-profit corporations. Why? And assuming corporations are so divided, does it really make sense to say that one corporation is immoral or amoral and the other is not when the former fund the later, directly or indirectly?
Now my point can be summarized thus: don’t commit the fallacy of equivocation. If you define the free market system to encompass private charity and government then you cannot say that it fails to care for the poor. If you don’t include it then you cannot say that it must have as its purpose to care for the poor. But to exclude all the ways that a society cares for the poor from your concept of the free market system and then to demand of it that it care for the poor is absurd.
I would go further than you: free market economy is an ideal. It is not, and has never been, a reality. The question is whether it is a worthy ideal or an evil ideal like communism. But in order even to consider that question you must understand what is being advocated. I have never heard anyone advocating the elimination of charitable organizations under the banner of free market economics.
C
Catolico65
Guest
It appears your main goal is to defend free market economics. I don’t have a problem with that nor does the Pope. The way free markets work doesn’t have anything to do with religion nor taxes nor social services but only the mechanics of how goods are bought and sold.
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
If so, I have my work cut out for me because few ideas are so thoroughly misunderstood which is ironic given that it supposedly is the dominant economic practice. You yourself have demonstrated great confusion. Contrast the above description of free markets (and taxes and religion) with what you wrote below:
More importantly, if the free market had nothing to do with religion (and taxes) then why would Pope Francis, like so many popes before him, be weighing in on the subject?
K
KSU
Guest
First, Francis is neither an economist (a fact he really did not have to remind us of
) nor a politician, nor fluent in English, nor very particular (yet) about the competency of the Vatican translators, nor a phony diplomat. He calls 'em like he sees 'em.Nor was Evangelii Gaudium anything more than the Holy Father writing down his perception of things; an Apostolic Exhortation, i.e., not written as dogma, yet not something authentic, inquiring Catholics should ignore. We don’t have to attend Mass every day, either, or have personal devotion to Mary.
Now, I’ll grant you this: It is the job of every Diocesan Bishop, especially given the noise in the secular (and some Catholic) media about section 54 of Evangelii Gaudium, to be explaining these things, not an ignoramus like me. But what did we get? Crickets.
Second, " so many popes before him" wrote (disapprovingly?) about the free market? To what were you referring?
B
Bubba_Switzler
Guest
I think you read more into my words than I intended. All I meant to say was that Pope Francis expressed an opionion on the free market in response to the claim: “The way free markets work doesn’t have anything to do with religion nor taxes nor social services but only the mechanics of how goods are bought and sold.”First, Francis is neither an economist (a fact he really did not have to remind us of
Nor was Evangelii Gaudium anything more than the Holy Father writing down his perception of things; an Apostolic Exhortation, i.e., not written as dogma, yet not something authentic, inquiring Catholics should ignore. We don’t have to attend Mass every day, either, or have personal devotion to Mary.
Now, I’ll grant you this: It is the job of every Diocesan Bishop, especially given the noise in the secular (and some Catholic) media about Evangelii Gaudium, to be explaining these things, not an ignoramus like me. But what did we get? Crickets.
Second, " so many popes before him" wrote (disapprovingly?) about the free market? To what were you referring?
Would popes really bother to comment on the mechanics of how good are bought and sold? I don’t think so any more than they would comment on the mechanics of the internet or space exploration.
In fact, though, the free market is a much broader concept and it does have important moral and even theological implications that merit the attention of popes, bishops, and theologians. But to make useful comments they really need to understand what they are commenting upon and far too many clergy cleary do not. One way around this is to offer on only general aims and leave it to the laity to work out the details of implementation, e.g. that the poor must be cared for but not that they must be cared for in some particular way such as welfare programs.
In Pope Francis’ case this is complicated by the fact that he comes from a country that is rated as “mostly not free” on the economic freedom index. How might that influence his views of free markets?
- Status