'I'm no Marxist', Pope Francis tells conservative critics

[KSU]

I am coming to the conclusion that popes are probably not the best people to go to for economic advise.

Francis would be the first to agree with you. Nor was he offering any advise on economics; he was pointing out to the world what you already know: Globalized idolization of money can do great harm.

These are a few examples that readily come to mind; there assuredly are more:

That good looking shirt bought at such a low price may have been, although unknown to the buyer because of global laundering, the product of cruel child labor. And slave labor of all ages, transported around the world, is hardly unknown. It’s protected by governments and organized crime, especially prostitution slavery in the guise of imported labor.

Unspeakable child pornography also is a globalized product. In this country, the shameless ACLU, on behalf of the even more unspeakable NAMBLA, took this “free speech” issue all the way to the Supreme Court even though the involved children and infants were physically harmed.

The U S permits the Chinese Communists to sell their cheaply produced products here even though China won’t permit or greatly restricts our producers from selling over there. I guess it’s just coincidence that that policy allows our government to borrow and spend more, even though it harms U S workers and companies, as well as you and your children and their children who will have to pay off the principal if they ever get through the absurd amount of interest first.

I’m pretty sure Francis knows a lot more about the harmful aspects of globalization than I do, and I am positively, absolutely sure he is not knocking global trade itself which he knows is a very good thing.

 

[ProVobis]

The U S permits the Chinese Communists to sell their cheaply produced products here even though China won’t permit or greatly restricts our producers from selling over there. I guess it’s just coincidence that that policy allows our government to borrow and spend more, even though it harms U S workers and companies, as well as you and your children and their children who will have to pay off the principal if they ever get through the absurd amount of interest first.

It’s a world of Keynesians. Economics doesn’t know the difference between tyrants, socialism, Marxism, etc, generally speaking. The rest follows the Law of Distribution. You will have rich and poor in any society.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Francis would be the first to agree with you. Nor was he offering any advise on economics; he was pointing out to the world what you already know: Globalized idolization of money can do great harm.

I’m not a big fan of the idolization metaphor but I would be a lot less concerned if he were more honest about the dangers of idolization of government.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I am coming to the conclusion that popes are probably not the best people to go to for economic advise.

It’s a world of Keynesians. Economics doesn’t know the difference between tyrants, socialism, Marxism, etc, generally speaking. The rest follows the Law of Distribution. You will have rich and poor in any society.

Pope do belong in the discussion of economics. But they need to be better informed and focus more on big moral issues and less on mechanics. There is no concensus on economics. Keynesians may be the most popular but there is more than enough opposition to their views for a vigorous debate. And intellectual opposition to Keynesianism is likely to grow with the continuing sovereign crisis and the failure of Keynesian economic solutions.

 

[KSU]

I’m not a big fan of the idolization metaphor but I would be a lot less concerned if he were more honest about the dangers of idolization of government.

More honest? You and I are not talking about the same Pope Francis. You want to talk only about the imaginary Francis created by Reuters/NYT/WashPo/Vatican press office, while I’m talking about the real Francis who told the “the world’s political and business elite gathered in Davos to use their spirit of entrepreneurship to alleviate crushing global poverty.” jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/

He wasn’t speaking to the lovers of Big Government when he said that or this: “Those who have demonstrated their aptitude for being innovative and for improving the lives of many people by their ingenuity and professional expertise can further contribute by putting their skills at the service of those who are still living in dire poverty.”; or when he called for “…the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality.”

A while ago, I linked to this from the same source:

QUOTE One thing to beware of, and I’ve alluded to in my translation is the use of the word “distribution” which we, in English associate with “RE-distribution.” In Italian/Spanish that word carries more of a statistics meaning; think of “frequency distribution.” The Pope is NOT calling for RE-distribution of anything (in fact, you will note he specifically wants to move past “welfare”) and, you should further kindly note, he is also not asking business elite-types for money. He is asking them to use their business skills to help alleviate global poverty. END QUOTE

And you never acknowledge this from #56 of E G:" Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power." Or this from his LaStampa interview: “The Marxist ideology is wrong." Or, again this: “I say that politics is the most important of the civil activities and has its own field of action, which is not that of religion. Political institutions are secular by definition and operate in independent spheres. All my predecessors have said the same thing, for many years at least, albeit with different accents… The Church will never go beyond its task of expressing and disseminating its values, at least as long as I’m here”.

What else do you want from Francis, an encyclical condemning Democrat economics by name? We already have a perfectly good Compendium. Perhaps you want Francis to ignore the Compendium and be more like this group: catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20375

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

More honest? You and I are not talking about the same Pope Francis. You want to talk only about the imaginary Francis created by Reuters/NYT/WashPo/Vatican press office, while I’m talking about the real Francis who told the “the world’s political and business elite gathered in Davos to use their spirit of entrepreneurship to alleviate crushing global poverty.” jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/

He wasn’t speaking to the lovers of Big Government when he said that or this: “Those who have demonstrated their aptitude for being innovative and for improving the lives of many people by their ingenuity and professional expertise can further contribute by putting their skills at the service of those who are still living in dire poverty.”; or when he called for “…the creation of sources of employment and an integral promotion of the poor which goes beyond a simple welfare mentality.”

A while ago, I linked to this from the same source:

QUOTE One thing to beware of, and I’ve alluded to in my translation is the use of the word “distribution” which we, in English associate with “RE-distribution.” In Italian/Spanish that word carries more of a statistics meaning; think of “frequency distribution.” The Pope is NOT calling for RE-distribution of anything (in fact, you will note he specifically wants to move past “welfare”) and, you should further kindly note, he is also not asking business elite-types for money. He is asking them to use their business skills to help alleviate global poverty. END QUOTE

And you never acknowledge this from #56 of E G:" Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power." Or this from his LaStampa interview: “The Marxist ideology is wrong." Or, again this: “I say that politics is the most important of the civil activities and has its own field of action, which is not that of religion. Political institutions are secular by definition and operate in independent spheres. All my predecessors have said the same thing, for many years at least, albeit with different accents… The Church will never go beyond its task of expressing and disseminating its values, at least as long as I’m here”.

What else do you want from Francis, an encyclical condemning Democrat economics by name? We already have a perfectly good Compendium. Perhaps you want Francis to ignore the Compendium and be more like this group: catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20375

“Honest” was a poor choice of words. What I menat (obviously, I hope) is that the pope has not spoken out against idolization of government. Nothing you’ve cited contradicts that observation. Saying that Marxist ideology is wrong or that he is not a Marxist only rejects the most extreme manifestation of government worship. It’s like saying Hitler went too far when he invaded the Soviet Union. (He has also joined previous popes in criticizing welfare dependency and now spoken out on unemployment, yay.)

No, I don’t expect him to call out American democrats and I do recognize that the popular press will focus on his criticisms of free market capitalism to the exclusion of all else. However, he is now living in Rome, Italy and the suffering around him in spite of all the first world government handouts that were lacking in Argentina. I look forward to hearing Pope Francis address the slow death of Europe.

Whatever America’s probelms with the welfare state, it is merely following behind Europe.

 

[KSU]

I do recognize that the popular press will focus on his criticisms of free market capitalism to the exclusion of all else.

My friend, you insist on talking about an imaginary Francis created by Reuters/NYT/WashPo and the incompetent translators at the Vatican press office.

Please wake me when you can quote his criticisms of “free market capitalism”.

Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) on Sunday suggested that Pope Francis had been touting the same “free market” principles opposing the “welfare state” that the Republican Party has been pushing for years. rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/02/abc-host-corners-paul-ryan-you-dont-think-the-pope-would-endorse-your-budget/

 

[Robert_Sock]

Pope Francis may not be a Marxist, but the world will eventually be Socialistic. Capitalism is doomed as a fair and just economic system, and must be abandoned. Socialism is more ready to lend itself to true Humanitarian causes, which the vast number of people will support. Capitalism is inherently anti-humanitarian, and must not be allowed due to the human atrocities that it produces.

 

[KSU]

Pope Francis may not be a Marxist, but the world will eventually be Socialistic. Capitalism is doomed as a fair and just economic system, and must be abandoned. Socialism is more ready to lend itself to true Humanitarian causes, which the vast number of people will support. Capitalism is inherently anti-humanitarian, and must not be allowed due to the human atrocities that it produces.

That’s nice, Robert. You will be right at home when that happens. But why wait? Cuba and North Korea need you now!

 

[starshiptrooper]

Pope Francis may not be a Marxist, but the world will eventually be Socialistic. Capitalism is doomed as a fair and just economic system, and must be abandoned. Socialism is more ready to lend itself to true Humanitarian causes, which the vast number of people will support. Capitalism is inherently anti-humanitarian, and must not be allowed due to the human atrocities that it produces.

Read Governor Bradford’s Diary. Socialism failed in the US the first time it was tried. The countries and governments that more closely follow free market ideals will continue to succeed, because most of the time humans act on their perceived self-interests, and the free market is based on individuals voluntarily making exchanges that advance their self-interest. Socialism is collectivistic and assumes that we will put the nebulous, “common good” ahead of our own self-interests which both impractical and immoral.

 

[anthony022071]

Pope Francis may not be a Marxist, but the world will eventually be Socialistic. Capitalism is doomed as a fair and just economic system, and must be abandoned. Socialism is more ready to lend itself to true Humanitarian causes, which the vast number of people will support. Capitalism is inherently anti-humanitarian, and must not be allowed due to the human atrocities that it produces.

The Western countries already have socialist style government,and they have an enervating
effects on people’s initiative and morality. Socialism dissolves the natural social order and the sense of natural law and duties. It fosters dependency upon the government,lack of motivation,irresponsibility,timidity,secularism,materialism,a naturalistic world view,moral and cultural and religious relativism,abortion,contraception,suicide,abandonment of God and Church.

People do not practice capitalism for the sake of social fairness or justice,they practice it for the purpose of making money through their work and the sale of products and services. There is nothing wrong with that in itself. It is legitimate economic liberty. Economic transactions do not have to be done for the sake of so-called “humanitarian” causes to be morally fair and just. They can be fair and just if no sin is involved. It is fair and just for people to be allowed to support themselves by making profits from the products and services they provide. Humanitarianism is misguided anyway. It is a secular counterfeit of Catholic charity,concerned only with the earthly well-being of others,treating people as if they are only creatures of needs and projects,rather than treating them with truth and charity,as persons created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The Western countries already have socialist style government,and they have an enervating
effects on people’s initiative and morality. Socialism dissolves the natural social order and the sense of natural law and duties. It fosters dependency upon the government,lack of motivation,irresponsibility,timidity,secularism,materialism,a naturalistic world view,moral and cultural and religious relativism,abortion,contraception,suicide,abandonment of God and Church.

Capitalism is not intended to be a fair and just economic system,people practice it for the purpose of making money through their work and the sale of goods and services. There is nothing wrong with that in itself. It is legitimate economic liberty. Economic transactions do not have to be done for the sake of “humanitarian” causes to be fair and just. They can be fair and just if no sin is involved. It is fair and just for people to be allowed to support themselves by making profits from the goods and services they provide.

Socialism may not be perfect or is necessarily the only economic system alternative to capitalism, but the problems of capitalism are large and dictates change. As long as 9,500 innocent children starve to death daily, justice has not been served. Greed and prestige run rampant and circumvent true humanitarianism. Look at the economic disparity with capitalism and see all the injustices.

 

[KSU]

Socialism may not be perfect or is necessarily the only economic system alternative to capitalism, but the problems of capitalism are large and dictates change. As long as 9,500 innocent children starve to death daily, justice has not been served. Greed and prestige run rampant and circumvent true humanitarianism. Look at the economic disparity with capitalism and see all the injustices.

The Church teaches just the opposite. You can’t be a Socialist and a Catholic at the same time. But you already know that.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The Church teaches just the opposite. You can’t be a Socialist and a Catholic at the same time. But you already know that.

You cannot be a champion of justice and a capitalist. Capitalism is a hindrance to brotherly LOVE!!! LOVE your neighbor as yourself is most difficult to achieve through capitalism.

 

[Darryl1958]

The case can be made that capitalism is in fact the ultimate form of charity yet achieved by mankind. It is specifically geared to providing people with things that they actually need and want, not according to what some elites deem to be proper, but according to what the people themselves deem proper.

Capitalism does not solve poverty, but it has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system every devised.

George Gilder makes a very sound case for the morality of capitalism. The capitalist does not horde his money, but invests it in what people want and need, and to the extent that the capitalist is successful in fulfilling the needs of people, there is his profit.
The capitalist does not consume his wealth, and therefore greed does not describe the capitalist enterprise. The capitalist instead risks his wealth for the benefit of his fellow inhabitants, and creatively anticipates and works to find ways to fulfill their needs and wants at the lowest possible price.

Marxism does not asks us what we want. It tells us what we need, and almost invariably provides the people with inferior products at a higher cost than would have been available in a competitive capitalist environment.

Pope Frances and any future pope that would like to venture into writing sermons on the economy would be well served by reading some of the writings of the eminent George Gilder. They would do well by applying his Israel test to their economic ideas, thereby expelling any notion that theie theology is based on the envies and jelousies inherent in the Marxist ideology once and for all.

 

[Darryl1958]

Hernando de Soto is another excellent economist that bases his ideas on interviewing the man on the street and formulating his theories on asking people what they really want.

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A few weeks ago I met Salem, the younger brother of the brave Tunisian fruit vendor whose self-immolation triggered the Arab uprising. When I asked him what his brother in heaven would say if we asked what he hoped his sacrifice would bring to the Arab World, Salem did not hesitate:** “That the poor also have the right to buy and sell.”**

People across the ME were setting themselves afire in order to make the point, that what the poor want is not an end to capitalism, but they want to be given the freedom to practice capitalism for themselves?

Popes and Catholics would do well to follow the example of de Soto, and ask the people what they want. Otherwise, our charity will be defined by the status quo in which “Foreign aid goes from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.”

 

[ProVobis]

Otherwise, our charity will be defined by the status quo in which “Foreign aid goes from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.”

Otherwise known as “Emerging markets.”

 

[anthony022071]

Socialism may not be perfect or is necessarily the only economic system alternative to capitalism, but the problems of capitalism are large and dictates change.

Socialism isn’t an economic system,it’s a government system. Socialist governments feed off of the wealth produced by capitalist economy through taxation and they expand themselves with that wealth.

As long as 9,500 innocent children starve to death daily, justice has not been served.

Socialist government does not guarantee that people will not starve. It is not the concern of most politicians and bureaucrats if people are starving. They do not personally see to it that poor people are being adequately fed. It is for parents and parishes and missionaries to see to it that poor people are provided with what they need.

Greed and prestige run rampant and circumvent true humanitarianism. Look at the economic disparity with capitalism and see all the injustices.

Governments are greedy as well as big businesses. They help themselves to much more tax money than they need to do their proper functions and they seek to gain more and more control over people’s lives and income and businesses. They are always looking for more ways to tax and regulate people and businesses.

 

[anthony022071]

Socialism isn’t an economic system,it’s a government system. Socialist governments feed off of the wealth produced by capitalist economy through taxation and they expand themselves with that wealth.

Socialist government does not guarantee that people will not starve. Most politicians and bureaucrats are not concerned if people are starving. They do not personally see to it that poor people are being adequately fed. It is for parents and parishes and missionaries to see to it that poor people are provided with what they need.

Governments are greedy as well as big businesses. They help themselves to much more tax money than they need to do their proper functions and they seek to gain more and more control over people’s lives and income and businesses. They are always looking for more ways to tax and regulate people and businesses.

 

[anthony022071]

Look at the economic disparity with capitalism and see all the injustices.

Economic disparity will always be there in a large society where people are free to improve their economic condition. People are disparate in lifestyle,interests,diligence,motivation,
ambition,talents,family background,and education,and this results in economic disparity.