'I'm no Marxist', Pope Francis tells conservative critics

[ChevalierdeJohn]

Francis I isn’t a Marxist, he’s simply applying the principles espoused in Rerum Novarum, which are themselves based on the teaching of Christ. Unfortunately most of his “conservative” interlocutors are steeped in a Protestant tradition which is the foundation of the secular culture, i.e., they’re ignorant of basic matters of theology and faith. This is true regardless of their professed religion; there are plenty of nominal Catholics who are Protestant in outlook. It’s the dominant world culture; you have to be relatively knowledgeable and well-catechized to avoid its pitfalls.

In Catholic social teaching, the basic dignity of the human person demands that each person be afforded the opportunity to provide for his own economic needs. “Afforded the opportunity” does not mean “the government ought to provide”, it means we as fellow human beings ought to help others work for a living, to the extent they are able to work. It’s an opportunity, not a guarantee.

As Chesterton says, the problem is not too many capitalists, but too few.

A basic rule of thumb ought to be the recognition that it’s extremely difficult to personally care about the well-being of someone you don’t know by name. Those of us who own businesses ought to consider that when our enterprises become so large that we can no longer remember the names of our employees, it is time to suggest that one of our top employees branch off and start his own business to serve the expanding needs of our customers.

We should always be cognizant of economic efficiency, but the purpose of human life is the salvation of souls, not economic efficiency.

 

[Veridical16]

You cannot be a champion of justice and a capitalist. Capitalism is a hindrance to brotherly LOVE!!! LOVE your neighbor as yourself is most difficult to achieve through capitalism.

Brotherly Love, is a Freemasonic virtue, and is not our purpose on Earth. First all things should be done for the love of God, then we can help our neighbor

To promote or apologize for Socialism is antiCatholic, and goes against the Church Teaching because it is MATERIALIST based. Therefore it is to be rejected.

To promote Capitalism in its materialist form and systemic crimes against the poor is also to ignore Church teaching, and should be Rejected too. This is not a case of Either or. It’s Neither/Nor

Marxist/Socialist thought is condemned more overtly because it is more clearly defined as a philosophy, and whatever you continue to promote is based in error.

Pius XI (1922-1939): “No one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”
Socialism, fundamentally contrary to Christian truth
“… For Socialism, which could then be termed almost a single system and which maintained definite teachings reduced into one body of doctrine, has since then split chiefly into two sections, often opposing each other and even bitterly hostile, without either one however abandoning a position fundamentally contrary to Christian truth that was characteristic of Socialism.” (Encyclical Quadragesimo Anno, May 15, 1931, n. 111)

Socialism cannot be reconciled with Catholic Doctrine
“But what if Socialism has really been so tempered and modified as to the class struggle and private ownership that there is in it no longer anything to be censured on these points? Has it thereby renounced its contradictory nature to the Christian religion? This is the question that holds many minds in suspense. And numerous are the Catholics who, although they clearly understand that Christian principles can never be abandoned or diminished seem to turn their eyes to the Holy See and earnestly beseech Us to decide whether this form of Socialism has so far recovered from false doctrines that it can be accepted without the sacrifice of any Christian principle and in a certain sense be baptized. That We, in keeping with Our fatherly solicitude, may answer their petitions, We make this pronouncement: Whether considered as a doctrine, or an historical fact, or a movement, Socialism, if it remains truly Socialism, even after it has yielded to truth and justice on the points which we have mentioned, cannot be reconciled with the teachings of the Catholic Church because its concept of society itself is utterly foreign to Christian truth.” (Ibid. n. 117)

Catholic Socialism, a contradiction
“[Socialism] is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. R**eligious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.” **(Ibid. n. 120)

Just because your posts boast of attacking what is currently called “Capitalism” in its present form (Today’s Capitalism is tied into other forms of error and sin, Materialism, Avarice, Usury) it does not let you off the hook in promoting error that Socialism is more favorable.

The Church is not in the business of Feel-good happy, False Charity, that is , if I merely help the poor, and do not live a moral personal life then I can call myself a good person.

Even great contributions to Charity, if it is not done with the Supernatural Virtue of Charity and Love For God, but for the approval of men, there is no merit in the eyes of God.

Ergo, achieving MERE Brotherly Love is to chase a falsehood. As Catholics, we aren’t here to build a kingdom of God on earth by Merely putting clothes on the poor’s back. We’re here to provide spiritual life, THEN, care for their material needs. The world is passing away.

If a person is inclined to love his NEIGHBOR, then he will learn how to love the God, who SERVED him first. That is the providence of Pope Francis focusing on the poor. In a world that has forgotten Christ, the world may remember who he is, if they TRULY reflect on why we are to care for the marginalized and suffering.

 

[Veridical16]

Economic disparity will always be there in a large society .

I used to believe in that because it’s what we hear as the counter point to Socialist policies repeatedly, but I do NOT think t he Economic Disparity as it Exists TODAY is justified, nor do I believe the Economic Concentration of Wealth in the Hands of the Few is just.

It is not Just and it is not Right.

I think the apathy to economic disparity is not something Catholics should shrug their shoulders at…

** People are disparate in lifestyle,interests,diligence,motivation, ambition,talents,family background,and education**,and this results in economic disparity.

This is true to an extent in respect to variations of ability, but those in the business of promoting capitalism on the radio, t.v. etc. sometimes use this observation as spurious reasons to justify certain practices of today. For instance the difference in motivation is not necessarily the reason why the wealthy of today, are wealthier than other and the poor today are poorer than others, in this country, and most especially in the countries that suffer under the indirect consequence of certain aspects to what Pope Francis criticizes in Capitalistic Systems.

Bishop Fulton Sheen alludes to this in his talk where he refutes the 19th century notion that anyone could just work hard enough to get to the status of a JP Morgan.

“Does Capitalism Exist?”
youtube.com/watch?v=7ra0d_1OVfQ
(Fulton Sheen’s conclusions may have been a bit optimistic for he only had the benefit of seeing Socialism’s errors bear fruit)

Pope Francis’ current criticisms on unemployment and Usury, shed light on this reality.

where people are free to improve their economic condition

In some cases they aren’t free because of the freedom of the have nots.
The current line of thought that goes against the rugged individualism, is the belief that the concentration of wealth in the extreme acceptance is something to be lauded as if everything is achieved through merit. That would be true if our economic system of meritocracy was based on the moral exchange of goods, except we neglect that in the school of Adam Smith, the moral component was removed.

As Catholics we *don’t *believe that the wealth is ultimately ours to do as we please in respect to charity, we believe we have one coat on our backs, and we have the freedom to give the extra coat in our closet to the coatless stranger.

That is the purpose of true free society, to do what we Ought to do, not freedom to neglect the stranger and do what we like.

Without this virtue, then you begin to see the age old injustices as unjust wages and oppression of the laborer rear its ugly head, and I don’t think the realization hits home much because there is no real political discourse between the two parties and their prominent leaders that addresses these issues in a sincere manner during presidential elections.

 

[KSU]

Francis I isn’t a Marxist, he’s simply applying the principles espoused in Rerum Novarum, which are themselves based on the teaching of Christ. Unfortunately most of his “conservative” interlocutors are steeped in a Protestant tradition which is the foundation of the secular culture…

Overall, John, a very good post, but please allow me a nit pick regarding your above-quoted opening. Specifically, Francis at present doesn’t have any economic or social conservative interlocutors that you or I are aware of. Let’s hope, however, that in his inner circle he has a few trusted “conservatives” who get the opportunity to actually act as interlocutors regarding secular matters as well as theological matters.

It may be that by “interlocutors” of Francis you mean a “critic”,i.e., what Rush Limbaugh is painted as by the Left–secular and Catholic. In fact, what Limbaugh said about the imaginary words of Francis created by Reuters/NYT/WashPost and the incompetent translators at the Vatican press office was accurate: their interpretation of Evangelii Gaudium really did make it seem as though Francis was a Marxist attacking American capitalism. It turns out, of course, that Francis never even mentioned the word capitalism, much less American capitalism. Not that that mattered to our corrupt Leftist press. Limbaugh was fooled, as was I.

I don’t know of any economic conservatives, Protestant, Catholics or Jew, who are critics of Francis or who would have a problem with Rerum Novarum or the correctly translated Evangelii Gaudium.

Moreover, American Conservatism and Catholicism are natural allies, which is why the Left hates and fears both, and why it never stops trying to drive a wedge between the two-- especially with respect to Limbaugh who is a great admirer of Catholicism.

 

[Darryl1958]

American conservatism, including many Protestant conservatives, are indeed close allies of Catholic teaching.

The opposite can be said about American and global leftism.

 

[ProVobis]

American conservatism, including many Protestant conservatives, are indeed close allies of Catholic teaching.

I would agree with this if you were to call it traditional Catholic teaching.

 

[Darryl1958]

I would agree with this if you were to call it traditional Catholic teaching.

When it comes to Catholic teaching, it is either Catholic, or it is not. I don’t think that it is authentic to divide Catholic teaching into a variety of sets, one pertinent for progressives, one for traditionals, one for liberals, one for conservatives.

I think that even the most liberal Catholics would agree with traditional Catholics on what the actual Catholic teachings on the current political issues of the day are, such as marriage and sexuality and abortion and euthanasia. The disagreement is not on what the teachings are, and the teachings are invariably the same as they have always been since even before these controversies became issues.

The passions of the left however, are first and foremost predicated on their intense hatred of the religious right. The last thing that many ‘progressive’ Catholics want is to become identified as being of the same ilk as the religious right. It is embarrassing for them, and insulting even, for such Catholics to be seen as sharing a common cause with a group who have become in effect social pariahs in the larger community.
To the extent that many, if not most, Catholics identify themselves as being against that religious right, they are not, and will not be, natural allies of Catholic teaching.

 

[anthony022071]

When it comes to Catholic teaching, it is either Catholic, or it is not. I don’t think that it is authentic to divide Catholic teaching into a variety of sets, one pertinent for progressives, one for traditionals, one for liberals, one for conservatives.

The reality is that those divisions do exist,even though authentic Catholic doctrine is not divided. And they aren’t just about disagreements about political preferences or differences over unimportant matters,they are about differences of attitudes,priorities and loyalty toward authentic Church teaching. The political disagreements come from those differences. The divisions in the Church will continue until the leaders of the Church insist on orthodoxy from all Catholics,stop tolerating dissent from it,and clarify exactly what opinions are in accord with Catholic doctrine and reason,and what opinions are not.

Progressives tend to deviate from traditional teaching and practices and to disregard natural law and natural social order in favor of modern ways. For example,they tend to prefer existentialist and liberation theology rather than magisterial teaching or the orthodox teachings of the Church Fathers and medieval theologians,and they favor government welfare programs which interfere with people’s responsibilities towards themselves and their families and neighbors,which weakens their moral character and motivation and dissolves the natural bonds of society. Conservatives are interested in upholding venerable traditions and orthodoxy,and they have a strong sense of natural law and natural social order. The Catholic Church is inherently conservative insofar as it upholds its own doctrines,traditional practices,natural law and natural social order.

I think that even the most liberal Catholics would agree with traditional Catholics on what the actual Catholic teachings on the current political issues of the day are, such as marriage and sexuality and abortion and euthanasia. The disagreement is not on what the teachings are, and the teachings are invariably the same as they have always been since even before these controversies became issues.

Of course many liberal Catholics know what the Catholic teachings are,but they dissent from those teachings.

The passions of the left however, are first and foremost predicated on their intense hatred of the religious right. The last thing that many ‘progressive’ Catholics want is to become identified as being of the same ilk as the religious right. It is embarrassing for them, and insulting even, for such Catholics to be seen as sharing a common cause with a group who have become in effect social pariahs in the larger community.
To the extent that many, if not most, Catholics identify themselves as being against that religious right, they are not, and will not be, natural allies of Catholic teaching.

That’s true.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

You cannot be a champion of justice and a capitalist. Capitalism is a hindrance to brotherly LOVE!!! LOVE your neighbor as yourself is most difficult to achieve through capitalism.

Who’s justice? God’s justice or man’s? The Church has authoritatively ruled on Socialism and has condemned it. Faithful Catholics must submit to this.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Who’s justice? God’s justice or man’s? The Church has authoritatively ruled on Socialism and has condemned it. Faithful Catholics must submit to this.

Read the Gospels! In them you will find the words of LOVE from Christ Himself. Choose LOVE!

 

[KSU]

Read the Gospels! In them you will find the words of LOVE from Christ Himself. Choose LOVE!

Simply referring to Scripture won’t work, Robert, my friend, and I don’t believe you are a true Socialist.

Even the Devil quoted scripture for his own purpose; a foolish attempt to try Christ’s human nature. It didn’t work, but ever since then it’s not unusual to see a little Scriptural truth mixed in with error to confuse the unwary.

Our Lady warned us about Socialism, and her Son taught us to judge people and ideas by their fruits, not their humanitarian words. That’s one of the reasons why John Paul II, who saw the evils and suffering brought on by the humanitarianism promised by Socialism, will soon be made a saint.​

There is no denying that Hitler and Stalin are alive today…
they are waiting for us to forget, because this is
what makes possible the resurrection of these two monsters.

• Simon Wiesenthal

 

[seekerz]

Read the Gospels! In them you will find the words of LOVE from Christ Himself. Choose LOVE!

Er, how do you go from preaching love to being a socialist?

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Read the Gospels! In them you will find the words of LOVE from Christ Himself. Choose LOVE!

Obey the Catholic teachings on socialism or remove the scandal you are displaying by identifying yourself as a Catholic.

 

[markomalley]

Read the Gospels! In them you will find the words of LOVE from Christ Himself. Choose LOVE!

So do you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government control of the means of production?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated punishing taxes upon those in the middle class?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government-run health care?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government-enforced wage and price controls?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government-provided housing developments?

Or perhaps you have ANYTHING other than just buzz-words?

Let me give you a hint:

[bibledrb]Matt 19:21[/bibledrb]

Note that Jesus told the young man to go and sell his goods. He DID NOT have a Centurion there to forcibly seize them from the young man. In other words, he was requesting a voluntary act on the part of the young man.

A very free market type of solution…voluntary action.

 

[Robert_Sock]

So do you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government control of the means of production?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated punishing taxes upon those in the middle class?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government-run health care?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government-enforced wage and price controls?

Or perhaps you have some actual quotes from Christ where He advocated government-provided housing developments?

Or perhaps you have ANYTHING other than just buzz-words?

Let me give you a hint:

[bibledrb]Matt 19:21[/bibledrb]

Note that Jesus told the young man to go and sell his goods. He DID NOT have a Centurion there to forcibly seize them from the young man. In other words, he was requesting a voluntary act on the part of the young man.

A very free market type of solution…voluntary action.

I’m talking about Christ’s emphasis on LOVE.

 

[markomalley]

I’m talking about Christ’s emphasis on LOVE.

OK, so I guess you can’t come up with any Biblical examples for the policies and form of government you advocate.

I guess, like how the Church got it wrong on socialism, the writers of Scripture forgot to insert those parts?

 

[KSU]

It’s the ultra-conservative Republican and Christian Rush Limbaugh who called Pope Francis’ views “pure Marxism”…not “the secular media”.

.

Here jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/ is a corrected English translation of the Pope’s views. Will you please scroll down to Section 54 to see the views at issue, and then quote Limbaugh’s words with respect to the specific views he thinks are Marxist?

As to the veracity of the above-linked corrected English translation, see catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=697 There are other confirmations.

 

[KSU]

Originally Posted by DaddyGirl:
It’s the ultra-conservative Republican and Christian Rush Limbaugh who called Pope Francis’ views “pure Marxism”…not “the secular media”.

Here jmgarciaiii.blogspot.com/ is a corrected English translation of the Pope’s views. Will you please scroll down to Section 54 to see the views at issue, and then quote Limbaugh’s words with respect to the specific views he thinks are Marxist?

As to the veracity of the above-linked corrected English translation, see catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=697 There are other confirmations.

I’m still waiting for your reply, DaddyGirl.

You jumped in at the end of a thread, took the side of the Moloch-media, ignored the facts provided by the posters in the thread, and took a quick, drive-by pot shot at a Christian Conservative without being able to back it up.

That’s an example of how the Left attempts to drive wedges between Catholicism and American Conservatism, its ally.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Caracas [Venezuala] has received open backing of allies such as Argentina, Bolivia and Cuba, who echo the Venezuelan position that the protesters are part of a conspiracy to overthrow the government.

online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303636404579397281422565494

An interesting, and revelaing, grouping of Latin American countries.