I'm not a Catholic because

[PRmerger]

As for the alleged sin of lying to the priest of your sorrow in the confessional: Your reply is an assertion based on what I am not sure. The prayer we use to express sorrow is called an ‘act’ - which word, due to the tradition of theatre in all cultures has become a corrupted word. As actors demonstrate and as lies show, words need not be true to be uttered. Yet still the priest prescribes penance, which suggest to me that the ‘act’ is not fully made until the penance is said or done. Do there exist any Church documents on this subject that you know of?

Yes, Michael. It is called the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I suggest you focus on these paragraphs:
1422-1470

Yet Bishops have the power to declare a communion invalid; for example, if soy product is used instead of wheat to accommodate the rare person with Celiac’s disease.

Actually, celiac disease is quite common.

1. The penitent begins by saying “Forgive me father for I have sinned.” By calling the priest Father, he acknowledges the closeness of the presence of the priest as the presence of God. One cannot lie to God. He knows everything and cannot be deceived.

Indeed.

Furthermore, there is this verse of scripture:

Mark 13:22.

“…to perform signs and miracles, and to deceive the elect - if that were possible.” Apparently, this is a subject open to interpretation. Jesus uses the word “if”. Who knows everything?

Exactly!

 

[PRmerger]

The poster said that he thought all revelation ended with the death of John. I guess my response reflected my belief that the body of Christ ascended to heaven and that both the physical sight of his resurrected body and the kingdom of heaven are part of the revelation that cannot be fully understood on earth. The Lord used many parables to bring us close to this heaven we hold in our faith. He gives us his body in communion as a foretaste of the joy of his kingdom. Still, earth is not heaven.

And yet heaven comes to earth at the Divine Liturgy. That is Catholic teaching, Michael.

 

[PJM]

=Michael19682;8756512]

Thank you Pat.

 

[Michael19682]

Why must we glean any sort of theological understanding from one verse only?

That is a very peculiar sort of paradigm to espouse!

Note to lurkers: this is absolutely NOT a Catholic paradigm. We Catholics need not look at a single verse and come to any understanding of God. Rather, we understand the Scriptures in light of the Tradition which brought us these Scriptures.

Are you attempting to say that there is no such thing as a ‘peculiar’ Catholic? Your comment to those you call lurkers looks very much like public censure. I cannot judge your intent or actions, for I am forbidden to judge; and at any rate I have no authority to censure on issues of morality. I looked up the paragraphs you cite from the Cathechism. They contain this as well as much else:

Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.

If any priest can absolve from excommunication, which usually results from habitual and stubborn unrepentance after certain particularly grave sins, then the unrepentance of the sinner in danger of death is irrelevant to ability to receive forgiveness and the forgiveness he receives depends only on the presence of a priest, who apparently doesn’t even have to hear a confession or a request for one (i.e., a deadly wound that occurs on a noisy city street amid jack hammers, buses and trains; or in the case of a priest who witnesses such danger of death while himself stricken with temporary or permanent deafness; or in the case of a priest in a land where he knows not the common language of the people).

I see in this paragraph of the Cathechism the expressed belief that every human soul desires to be united with God in heaven and that it indeed may be taken as a given that in the deepest sanctuary of the soul there is repentance. Expressed of not, it is there.

 

[PRmerger]

Are you attempting to say that there is no such thing as a ‘peculiar’ Catholic?

Not sure where you’re getting that idea, Michael. How odd!

Your comment to those you call lurkers looks very much like public censure.

I cannot censure the lurkers, Michael, as they, well, lurk, and do not make their views known.

I cannot judge your intent or actions, for I am forbidden to judge;

This is another peculiar paradigm and I urge the lurkers to read John 7:24, in which Catholics are commanded to judge. We* must *judge, but judge rightly.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine which tells us to use discernment?

 

[Michael19682]

Not sure where you’re getting that idea, Michael. How odd!

I cannot censure the lurkers, Michael, as they, well, lurk, and do not make their views known.

This is another peculiar paradigm and I urge the lurkers to read John 7:24, in which Catholics are commanded to judge. We* must *judge, but judge rightly.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Catholic doctrine which tells us to use discernment?

The actual verse says to not judge by appearances, but to judge justly. One can equally well discern in the scriptures that Jesus is referring to the interior of the person, which always longs for God’s forgiveness. Justice then is forgiveness. So you are absolutely correct when you say that Catholics are required to judge justly. They are required to forgive as Christ forgave. If he himself reserves his judgment for the second coming (of which no man knows the day or the hour), then we sin when we judge and show our lack of faith in his return, and hence in all his promises -such a one is worse than a lurker, he is a heathen without faith and a fool on top of that, for he knows not that he cannot imitate in our Lord that which has not yet happened.

 

[PRmerger]

The actual verse says to not judge by appearances, but to judge justly.

'zactly, Michael. Exactly!

So, of course, to say that you are forbidden to judge, as you claimed (readers, see Michael’s post #910), is to be unfamiliar with Scripture and Catholic doctrine.

 

[PRmerger]

-such a one is worse than a lurker, he is a heathen without faith and a fool on top of that, for he knows not that he cannot imitate in our Lord that which has not yet happened.

Oh, dear lurkers, I hope you do not take offense at this!

I, myself, give a to any lurker on this forum! This is certainly your right to do and you are welcome to lurk as long as you like, dear friends!

 

[Carlan]

.

If any priest can absolve from excommunication, which usually results from habitual and stubborn unrepentance after certain particularly grave sins, then the unrepentance of the sinner in danger of death is irrelevant to ability to receive forgiveness and the forgiveness he receives depends only on the presence of a priest, who apparently doesn’t even have to hear a confession or a request for one (i.e., a deadly wound that occurs on a noisy city street amid jack hammers, buses and trains; or in the case of a priest who witnesses such danger of death while himself stricken with temporary or permanent deafness; or in the case of a priest in a land where he knows not the common language of the people).

I see in this paragraph of the Cathechism the expressed belief that every human **soul desires to be united with God in heaven and that it indeed may be taken as a given that in the deepest sanctuary of the soul there is repentance. ** Expressed of not, it is there.

Michael, actually it could be seen,rather, as the expressed belief that it is God who desires all his children to be united with him. Only God knows what is in the deepest recess of a dying mans soul.
Under the circumstances you describe, the priest, knowing that, prays for the forgiveness of the victim. Peace, Carlan

 

[Omar_Gatskill]

Why are you not a Catholic?

Because I don’t believe that Catholicism today represents the full history and practice of Christianity established by the Apostles. By the same token, the Evangelicals I believe are totally out of the loop.

 

[1voice]

Yes it does. Where does the ‘written word’ claim to be the authority?

Re: I’m not a Catholic because …

The Word of God has never asked me to become a Catholic.

 

[Carlan]

Pride gets the better of many of us!
We love to lean on our own understanding.
Christ left his Church with a teaching authority, the Apostles.
When he died and went to be with the Father the Holy Spirit was sent to council and guide them.
That teaching authority of his Church lives on today and will always.
It is called the Magisterium made up of the descendant Bishops(Elders) of the Apostles.
We humbly listen to them.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Whadyamean]

Could you please provide an example of a Catholic here claiming that “the Church’s knowledge is whole or complete.”

My Church states that she is imperfect.

From our Catechism: “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.” CCC 825

You are right, though hat statement may have been made somewhere by someone catholic, I have not seen it said in so many words. What is happening is that I get that feeling from many. As you recall, I said “some seem to on here.” But thanks for taking it to the extreme.

I think that what people do, rightfully, from their stance within the Church, is to claim final Earthly authority over matters of faith and morals for the Institution as claimed by the faithful to be “guided” by the Holy Spirit. That of course is necessary in order to maintain the kind of authority the Church has over those who give themselves to it, as I did for so long.

That worked very well until I met a practical impasse that no person or document claiming alignment with Church teaching could begin to satisfactorily resolve. So, fearing for my Soul, I went elsewhere to solve the conundrum. As I have said to some, I feel like I have won the lottery. I found, and I was not deceived. So I guess I found a part of the Church that was imperfect.

So thank you for the opportunity to clarify my meaning.

 

[PRmerger]

You are right, though hat statement may have been made somewhere by someone catholic, I have not seen it said in so many words. What is happening is that I get that feeling from many. As you recall, I said “some seem to on here.”

I would be careful about interpreting what “some” say here to be what the Catholic Church says.

Please remember to always look to the Church for what she proclaims, not what “some” say.

Clearly, as per this thread, there are many folks here who think they understand Catholicism, but are actually quite misinformed. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

I think that what people do, rightfully, from their stance within the Church, is to claim final Earthly authority over matters of faith and morals for the Institution as claimed by the faithful to be “guided” by the Holy Spirit. That of course is necessary in order to maintain the kind of authority the Church has over those who give themselves to it, as I did for so long.

And if the Church is not the authority, the default position is that the Almighty Self becomes the authority.

 

[Whadyamean]

I would be careful about interpreting what “some” say here to be what the Catholic Church says.

Please remember to always look to the Church for what she proclaims, not what “some” say.

Clearly, as per this thread, there are many folks here who think they understand Catholicism, but are actually quite misinformed. :sad_yes:

Thanks for the caution, PR, but why do you think I stated what I did that way? I did not, you notice, make a broad statement of generality claiming things about “all” or “every.” I’m somewhat familiar with practical GS.

 

[CopticChristian]

I thought I knew what the CC taught; Mary worship, the silly superstitions (Really? My house will sell if I just turn the statue of St. Joseph upside down?), idol worship, etc… Then I started seriously studying church history, which led me to the early church fathers and thier writings. Which also led to another look at the CC. Now I don’t know. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around some Catholic beliefs. Some I know would just have to be accepted on faith in the Magisterium. Others I can study out.

Your average, Catholic-on-the-street doesn’t help eithier when I hear them spout the same nonsense that I always thought the CC stood for (How many times do I say Hail Mary to insure it wont rain today?) How about alittle more teaching for your own people?

For now I remain a Mennonite. A Mennonite with an open mind, maybe. We’ll see where the Lord leads.

Menno Simons was a Catholic priest and taught and believed all that the OHCAC believed and taught. He has brought you certain truths and the rest you have to discover as to what he did not teach and what you believe. You are Catholic. You were taught what you know by a Catholic. Learn what he discarded.

 

[CopticChristian]

You are right, though hat statement may have been made somewhere by someone catholic, I have not seen it said in so many words. What is happening is that I get that feeling from many. As you recall, I said “some seem to on here.” But thanks for taking it to the extreme.

I think that what people do, rightfully, from their stance within the Church, is to claim final Earthly authority over matters of faith and morals for the Institution as claimed by the faithful to be “guided” by the Holy Spirit. That of course is necessary in order to maintain the kind of authority the Church has over those who give themselves to it, as I did for so long.

That worked very well until I met a **practical impasse **that no person or document claiming alignment with Church teaching could begin to satisfactorily resolve. So, fearing for my Soul, I went elsewhere to solve the conundrum. As I have said to some, I feel like I have won the lottery. I found, and I was not deceived. So I guess I found a part of the Church that was imperfect.

So thank you for the opportunity to clarify my meaning.

What is this impasse that you believe caused you to believe you were deceived. As a member of the OHCAC I want to know… maybe I need out too…let me know.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m somewhat familiar with practical GS.

What’s that?

 

[1voice]

And if the Church is not the authority, the default position is that the Almighty Self becomes the authority.

Pope Benedict has clearly indicated that true Christianity is not limited to the Roman Catholic expression.