I'm not a Catholic because

[PJM]

=CopticChristian;8565392]I visited Manila many times. They have a place called smokey mountain. About 30,000 families live in the dump in the city of Manila.

papermade.org/

The places they live in are small and privacy is minimal. They have no computers that I know of. They survive and they procreate. They have made an industry of the dump. The Plastics are gathered by one group. The metals are gathered by another. Glass is gathered by another group. When you visit there and leave you have to shower and wash your clothes because the stench in the air is so thick and people live there and breathe this stuff…

The dump was not designed for life and yet out of the squallor comes life. How can this be? What is it about human nature that causes this. What is it about human nature that we so far away can spend our time on these computers posting, in our shelters, relatively safe and not filled with the odor of dung. The Nursery you speak of exists in Manilla and the children are born there in Manilla and I will tell you that every soul old and young I saw there had a smile on their face and welcomed me.

I ask you to rethink your nursery. This nursery exists with real people and they survive.

REPLY to:atheistgirlThe idea that Earth cannot support ALL of HUMANITY is a silly myth. The REAL Issue is GREED. human GREED and selifishness not any biological isuue.

God Bless you for trying to convience us otherwise.

Pat

 

[kingal86]

I’m not Catholic principally for the same reason I’m not Christian - I wasn’t baptised as a baby, and as an adult I am unsure and confused about my beliefs. I also come from a mostly secular family (technically a few are baptised Anglicans) in a very secular society, where - outside of Muslim/Hindu etc. ethnic minority communities - it is easy to feel embarrassment about overt displays of religious feeling as a young adult outside of a small minority - to generalise a bit - of cradle/cultural Catholics and Protestant evangelicals.

In the past I had briefly looked into baptism and confirmation (back then in the Anglican Church), but after reading the promises you make and the declarations did not believe I could honestly make them at present. (I’m not sure how some relatives did when christening their children).

As for Catholicism specifically, although I feel I have some understanding of their position since joining this site, I still disagree with the Magisterium on certain moral issues relating to sexuality - though with abortion my views are considerably more confused, and may moving towards the pro-life side.

Nonetheless, I do attend Mass on occasion (I attended the Sung Evening Mass at the beautiful Birmingham Oratory - visited by the Pope last year - this evening and last Sunday) and find peace in the ceremony.

 

[PJM]

=kingal86;8571263]I’m not Catholic principally for the same reason I’m not Christian - I wasn’t baptised as a baby, and as an adult I am unsure and confused about my beliefs. I also come from a mostly secular family (technically a few are baptised Anglicans) in a very secular society, where - outside of Muslim/Hindu etc. ethnic minority communities - it is easy to feel embarrassment about overt displays of religious feeling as a young adult outside of a small minority - to generalise a bit - of cradle/cultural Catholics and Protestant evangelicals.

In the past I had briefly looked into baptism and confirmation (back then in the Anglican Church), but after reading the promises you make and the declarations did not believe I could honestly make them at present. (I’m not sure how some relatives did when christening their children).

As for Catholicism specifically, although I feel I have some understanding of their position since joining this site, I still disagree with the Magisterium on certain moral issues relating to sexuality - though with abortion my views are considerably more confused, and may moving towards the pro-life side.

Nonetheless, I do attend Mass on occasion (I attended the Sung Evening Mass at the beautiful Birmingham Oratory - visited by the Pope last year - this evening and last Sunday) and find peace in the ceremony.

***My young firend, here is a FACT you need to understand.

God WILL, because God MUST [being a fair and just God] Judge each of us NOT on what we choose to believe, or choose to select; BUT ON WHAT HE GOD MAKES POSSIBLE FOR US TO KNOW. You CAN know the truth; therefore God will judge you based on that fact; even if you choose not to accept it***.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=dingodile;8570704]I am frankly appalled that a conversion to Judaism is painted as a victory for Satan, but I suppose this is a good illustration of why are not Catholics.

Before he was Pope, Joseph Ratzinger wrote, “Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.”

There’s moral conscience and there’s intellectual conscience.

For example, as a matter of both moral and intellectual conscience, I believe that there are genuine moral truths that can be discerned by any reflective person. I believe that the basic principles of morality are written in our minds and hearts. One of these principles is that our moral obligations begin at the point where our actions or inaction have a clear and understandable effect on the well-being of others. In fact, I believe that “love your neighbor” means just this, that the well-being of our neighbors is as important as our own, and we should see that and behave accordingly. A corollary of this is the principle that where no one’s well-being is at stake, we should not condemn. This is so clear to me that I cannot bring myself to deny it.

Yet the Catholic Church has many teachings, such as its teaching on artificial birth control, according to which actions that harm no one are condemned as sinful. We can argue forever about the interpretation of various passages in scripture, but to me the clearest evidence that the Church is not infallible is the fact that it teaches what is false! And as I see it, it is simply wrong to claim that ABC is a sinful practice. I don’t know if the Church teaches that when a sincere and prayerful person converts to Judaism it’s a victory for Satan, but if so, then that would be another example of what I mean.

I think that for many who have posted in this thread, the completion of the statement “I’m not a Catholic because…” is “…my conscience will not permit it.”

Oh, I agree with that!

BUT here my friend is why:

From the Catechism of the CC.

My friend if you knew this about our pope; you VERY LIKELY ought to know that God will; BEACAUSE GOD [Fair and Just] will Judge us on what He God makes available for us to know. Not only what WE choose to accept.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings

1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

1801 Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt.

2039 Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord. At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person’s own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions. Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.

So dear friend, I too am willing to leave this to you and a JUST God.

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Roy,
I am coverting to Reform by the way, I have Jewish friends with Catholic spouses!!
I know exactly what you mean re some of the “Old Testament” stuff too. There’s an awful lot of stoning going on in there and I agree with you that the Sermon on the Mount is indeed more preferable to that! But to be a good Catholic I would have had to have believed in Jesus bodily resurrection, and it would be wrong to insult the Church by claiming to follow it when I can’t accept such a major teaching.
Hope that makes sense?

That is certainly a big issue.

For me I would have a hard time becoming a Jew. I like the original stuff. The Judaism of the Old Testament is gone. Rabinnical Judaism has a history and I would find it difficult to be part of something that was after the fact and not truly Judaism of the OT. That is me.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am frankly appalled that a conversion to Judaism is painted as a victory for Satan, but I suppose this is a good illustration of why are not Catholics.

Before he was Pope, Joseph Ratzinger wrote, “Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority, there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.”

There’s moral conscience and there’s intellectual conscience.

For example, as a matter of both moral and intellectual conscience, I believe that there are genuine moral truths that can be discerned by any reflective person. I believe that the basic principles of morality are written in our minds and hearts. One of these principles is that our moral obligations begin at the point where our actions or inaction have a clear and understandable effect on the well-being of others. In fact, I believe that “love your neighbor” means just this, that the well-being of our neighbors is as important as our own, and we should see that and behave accordingly. A corollary of this is the principle that where no one’s well-being is at stake, we should not condemn. This is so clear to me that I cannot bring myself to deny it.

Yet the Catholic Church has many teachings, such as its teaching on artificial birth control, according to which actions that harm no one are condemned as sinful. We can argue forever about the interpretation of various passages in scripture, but to me the clearest evidence that the Church is not infallible is the fact that it teaches what is false! And as I see it, it is simply wrong to claim that ABC is a sinful practice. I don’t know if the Church teaches that when a sincere and prayerful person converts to Judaism it’s a victory for Satan, but if so, then that would be another example of what I mean.

I think that for many who have posted in this thread, the completion of the statement “I’m not a Catholic because…” is “…my conscience will not permit it.”

It is amazing that so many believe that they have some new insight. Read the letter to the Romans again to see that the “Gentile” who has not circumcision is a law unto themselves. In other words outside the Covenant one can know what is morally correct and act accordingly. The Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church teaches Natural Law.

I am grateful that you have a mind for Natural Law. Welcome to the only Church that welcomes you into the fold where you can learn what it is you expound.

Concerning ABC you are in opposition to one Protestant that wrote a book “The Bible and Birth Control”…After you read this book and after you write a book in opposition get back to me on that.

 

[dingodile]

It is amazing that so many believe that they have some new insight.

Exactly who claimed “new insight”?

Read the letter to the Romans again to see that the “Gentile” who has not circumcision is a law unto themselves. In other words outside the Covenant one can know what is morally correct and act accordingly. The Catholic Church and only the Catholic Church teaches Natural Law.

The Catholic Church teaches a particular version of Natural Law. It’s not, however, one that I find especially convincing.

Concerning ABC you are in opposition to one Protestant that wrote a book “The Bible and Birth Control”…After you read this book and after you write a book in opposition get back to me on that.

I don’t need Protestants or scripture to reach a conclusion about the morality of ABC, so I don’t see the point of reading a book like that. My point was simply that it’s impossible for me to accept the infallibility of an institution that teaches false moral doctrines. It’s far easier for me to believe that the Church has erred than it is to believe that it’s sinful to use ABC.

 

[Roy5]

My own experience, for what it’s worth, is that many, many Catholics are like millions of mainstream Protestants. They are believers in God, admirers of Christ, committed to lives of integrity, and reaching out to help the less fortunate. They have doubts about much of scripture, whether the atrocity stories of the OT or some of the miracles and teachings of the NT. However, they find comfort in the church, often a source of friends, and something solid amidst all the uncertainties of daily life.

** These Catholics ignore much of what the church teaches**, whether its the ban on birth control or such doctrines as transubstantiation or the sinless life of Mary.

  **Most mainline Protestants I know - unlike most evangelical Protestants - focus on what they can believe and ignore the rest**. They may even question such basic traditions as the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ. They see such doctrines as hand-me-downs from ancient times that now symbolize to them their deep faith in God. Many of these Protestants could be called Christian agnostics - Christians who accept the leadership of Christ when it comes to his Sermon on the Mount but have more questions than answers when it comes to ultimate questions. They have faith that God is in charge but that our human brain is not able to understand the vast mysteries of this mammoth universe. In a sense, this is a testimony to the greatness of God. I believe it was Harry Emerson Fosdick, the renown preacher of 50+ years ago, who said that "I can only believe in a God whom I cannot understand."  That's what makes God God!

** I personally have a feeling of affinity to these freethinking Catholics and Protestants.** I find it exciting to live in a universe which is so miraculous that our minds cannot comprehend it. I do believe that someday, somewhere, in some sense, we will understand. I can wait. Meanwhile, I have a firm belief in that God who remains a magnificent mystery.
**God bless Catholics, Protestants - and I would add Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Muslims, and all sincere devotees of God who embrace tolerance and respect for other traditions.** Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

 

[CopticChristian]

Exactly who claimed “new insight”?

The Catholic Church teaches a particular version of Natural Law. It’s not, however, one that I find especially convincing.

I don’t need Protestants or scripture to reach a conclusion about the morality of ABC, so I don’t see the point of reading a book like that. My point was simply that it’s impossible for me to accept the infallibility of an institution that teaches false moral doctrines. It’s far easier for me to believe that the Church has erred than it is to believe that it’s sinful to use ABC.

So, you are your own rule of Faith. Reason alone. Faith and Reason are like two wings soaring to the truth. You choose Reason alone.

 

[CopticChristian]

****My own experience, for what it’s worth, ****is that many, many Catholics are like millions of mainstream Protestants. They are believers in God, admirers of Christ, committed to lives of integrity, and reaching out to help the less fortunate. They have doubts about much of scripture, whether the atrocity stories of the OT or some of the miracles and teachings of the NT. However, they find comfort in the church, often a source of friends, and something solid amidst all the uncertainties of daily life.

** These Catholics ignore much of what the church teaches**, whether its the ban on birth control or such doctrines as transubstantiation or the sinless life of Mary.

  **Most mainline Protestants I know - unlike most evangelical Protestants - focus on what they can believe and ignore the rest**. They may even question such basic traditions as the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ. They see such doctrines as hand-me-downs from ancient times that now symbolize to them their deep faith in God. Many of these Protestants could be called Christian agnostics - Christians who accept the leadership of Christ when it comes to his Sermon on the Mount but have more questions than answers when it comes to ultimate questions. They have faith that God is in charge but that our human brain is not able to understand the vast mysteries of this mammoth universe. In a sense, this is a testimony to the greatness of God. I believe it was Harry Emerson Fosdick, the renown preacher of 50+ years ago, who said that "I can only believe in a God whom I cannot understand."  That's what makes God God!

** I personally have a feeling of affinity to these freethinking Catholics and Protestants.** I find it exciting to live in a universe which is so miraculous that our minds cannot comprehend it. I do believe that someday, somewhere, in some sense, we will understand. I can wait. Meanwhile, I have a firm belief in that God who remains a magnificent mystery.

 **God bless Catholics, Protestants - and I would add Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Muslims, and all sincere devotees of God who embrace tolerance and respect for other traditions.** Let us strive together to make religion a bridge rather than a barrier.

Your Catholic experience is always inexplicably skewed toward your bias. I have yet to to meet the Catholilcs you speak of. I can imagine if someone is negative that they will attract negative people. I can imagine if someone looks only for those that share their views in opposition and liberality they will find those people.

Be of like mind for the Kingdom of God is at hand. You are an enigma.

 

[dingodile]

So, you are your own rule of Faith. Reason alone. Faith and Reason are like two wings soaring to the truth. You choose Reason alone.

Why are you inventing things and attributing them to me? I don’t think it’s the job of faith to require me to assent to things that are repugnant to reason. That’s not a repudiation of faith.

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;8569782]Krahnicles…A most interesting post below. I know it’s a couple of weeks old but I’d like to address at least some of the points made in it - particularly as they relate to the conversation we were having on your thread about showing contempt.

Let me address the term “Catholic Monarch” first. Such a term could easily be seen as “contemptuous” and I know you are intelligent enough to know that the Monarch of the Catholic Church is the same as your monarch. He is Christ the King. No Catholic would refer to the Pope as “Monarch” as this would be blasphemy. At most he would be referred to as a “prince of the Church”…But not Monarch.

Now, to address the issue of unity. You say that you support unity but how do you define that unity and is your definition biblical? This is an important point. What sort of unity did Jesus Himself call for - What was recorded in Holy Scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?
Here are some examples:
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Add to these the examples of Paul meeting with Peter and others, laying out his teaching to be sure he they were all on the same page.
Add to these the Council in Acts in which a doctrinal issue that threatened to split the Church was debated and resolved.

Now to me, these calls for unity (to be one) fit much more closely with the idea of a single, universal authoritative Church than they do with a loose confederation of churches whose doctrines vary and even contradict one another.
The Holy Spirit cannot validly teach one truth to one group and an opposing truth to another group. I makes no sense.

You make the accusation above that we want to convert others to Catholicism. This is a point I will most happily concede. We DO want to convert others to Catholicism. The question is Why…Is it because, as you say in your post that we want to bring everyone under our “Catholic monarch”?
In Truth it is not.
Rather, the reason is that we wish to share with our brothers and sisters in Christ the immense riches that exist within Christ’s Catholic Church.
I have heard many former protestants speak of their conversion and - almost all of them say that they did not have to leave anything behind in their conversion. That coming into the Church provided them with greater freedom, not less. That they were richer, not poorer.
So what we are offering (as we see it) is a gift, not a chain. You are free to accept it or reject it as you will.
What we cannot be, and what others should not expect us to be, is something that we are not - expressing a false ecumenism that waters down the many treasures we have in God’s Catholic Church.

In closing - I offer a blog that I wrote a while back on, "Visible, Doctrinal, Authoritative Unity, in response to a conversation I was having with someone on another web-site. If you are interested in taking a look, it is HERE.

Peace
James

WAY TO GO JAMES:thumbsup:

God Bless you, ya done good.

Pat

 

[PJM]

=dingodile;8573753]Why are you inventing things and attributing them to me? I don’t think it’s the job of faith to require me to assent to things that are repugnant to reason. That’s not a repudiation of faith.

Let’s expand this theory of your.

I assume you do believe in God?

From that assumption one ned to understand that faith is always and exclusively God’s property; God’s offered gift to us. It is always and everytime preceded by God’s GRACE. Another free gift.

But if God ONLY provided grace sufficient to result in faith, without explaining what the “COST” will be to use them; He would not be a loving, fair and just God.

It would be like me giving you a ipod; and then making it impossible for you to use it, because I deny you the necessary service.

So what is my point?

Salvation is a PROCESS involving MANY absolutely necessary things. Grace and Faith get you admission, but your stuck at the door unless you GET MORE.

Grace, Faith, baptism [John 3:5], obedience to ALL of the Commandments AND to what the CC teaches [Mt. 16;18-19, Mt. 28:19-20, Mt. 19:17 and John 20:19-23], Charity and good works [James Chapter 2] are ALL essential parts of the process.

Very often these days it is assumed in GREVIOUS ERROR, that all one need to do is to profess belief in Christ. That too is necessary. BUT what good is belief if it does not casue a change of heart and life style.

Matt.7: 21 “Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” There are going to be a GREAT MULTITUDE that are denied access to heaven, because they did not seek TRUTH.

God Bless you, your at least looking in the right direcion being here on CAF

Pat

 

[Deborah123]

That is certainly a big issue.

For me I would have a hard time becoming a Jew. I like the original stuff. The Judaism of the Old Testament is gone. Rabinnical Judaism has a history and I would find it difficult to be part of something that was after the fact and not truly Judaism of the OT. That is me.

Not sure what you mean by the Judaism of the Old Testament is gone. The Ten Commandments? Circumcision? Passover? Sukkot? Monotheism? Day of Atonement? Keeping kosher? The importance of saying the Shema? etc etc etc.
All in the Torah, all part of Judaism today.

 

[Roy5]

Hi Deborah:

It doesn’t trouble me for a moment that you have decided to adopt Judaism, but do you really think that Reform Judaism has much to do with the Torah? I find that Reform Jews I know, including a Reform rabbi friend, dismiss the outrageous stories of the OT. They emphasize certain verses, especially from the prophets. I can’t imagine any of them I know shouting out joyfully: “Saul has killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!” I don’t understand why they admire David who had a faithful captain murdered so he could take his wife, nor that they admire the wisdom of Solomon who had 700 wives and 300 concubines!

** One difficulty I have with traditional Christianity is that it holds on to too much of the OT.** I certainly don’t believe, for example, that the Jews are a chosen people (I find the concept of any chosen people offensive), or that God promised Abraham and his descendants all the land between the Nile and the Rigris and Euphrates. I certainly don’t take Adam and Eve or the Noah story seriously. Do you believe that God deliberately drowned everybody but eight members of Noah’s family? I could never worship such a cruel deity. Think of all the little children who would have been drowned? Etc.

** As I have said, most Jews I know aren’t the least bit literalists.** Their affiliation seems to be based more on tribalism, reenforced by persecution over the centuries, than on religious beliefs. In fact, the majority around here seem irreligious, except that the synagogue is crowded at Roshashana and Yom Kippur. Again - ethnic tribalism more than adherents of Judaism.

** Anyway, hope you enjoy your new faith.** I see religion primarily as a source of comfort, community and support, especially when confronting major problems in life. And it can provide temporary answers to such basic questions as to why we are here - speculation, but answers that satisfy many. If it works for you, run with it. Just don’t think that you are becoming part of a group that has superiority over any other. I was in Israel four times and met Jews who were convinced that God’s main concern was them and the state of Israel. I don’t regard God as involved in real estate - nor having favorites based on their blood line.
God bless.

 

[Deborah123]

Roy

“Just don’t think that you are becoming part of a group that has superiority over any other.”

Why on earth would I think that??? Lumping me in with Zionist Israelis is a dreadful generalisation! I live in a tiny village in England and I can assure you I do not believe any religion to be superior and I do not know any Jews in my little community who think that way.

“but do you really think that Reform Judaism has much to do with the Torah”

After 3 years of very hard Torah study with another year to go, actually yes!!

I am also fierce defender of the Catholic Church if I hear anyone insult it, please do not make generalisations about those of us of other faiths.

Thank you for the kind things in your post too, I did notice them!

G-d bless

 

[Roy5]

Deborah. Glad you clarified your position. I am one of those who feel rather strongly that the United States should have played a more even-handed role in the Holy Land, which would have benefited Israel, the Palestinians, tha USA and the entire world. Unfortunately, here in the USA the AIPAC and Christian evangelicals are so zealously and blindly pro-Israel that politicians are afraid to have a pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian position.

I find so much in the Torah that is nationalistic and even primitive that I am surprised that Reform Jews would stand by it. The Mosaic law obviously includes much that is cruel when it comes to punishment for all manner of offenses, usually by stoning. I believe I offered some references in that regard. Even the Ten Commandments give me some hesitation. For example, do you punish descendants of 'pagans' to the third and fourth generation? Ex. 20:5.  

 I apologize if I offended you, but when I was in the Holy Land I was severely alienated by those Israelis who expressed such hate for Palestinians and were quite convinced that they had no right to live there. I also met Jews who understood the need to achieve peace through justice. It is no surprise that Israel is probably the most despised country in the world. Some of it is unjustified, but some of it is. There is plenty of blame to go around, and this included the USA and the UK.

 

[Deborah123]

Hi Roy

We have a problem here in the UK, as soon as you say you are Jewish to some people, they will start berating you over Israel and this spills over into anti-semitism. Its really draining on the stamina explaining the difference in Judaism and Zionism!
I would never argue with a British Muslim over, say, the inequality in Saudi Arabia.
This has been the most difficult part of my conversion, I have had some horrible things said to me (but also some very kind things by people who are interested).

I have been to Israel and met some lovely people, and some terrible racists.

We are way off topic here so I will shut up now!

Good night!

 

[dingodile]

Let’s expand this theory of your.

I assume you do believe in God?

I’m trying.

From that assumption one ned to understand that faith is always and exclusively God’s property; God’s offered gift to us. It is always and everytime preceded by God’s GRACE. Another free gift.

Okay.

But if God ONLY provided grace sufficient to result in faith, without explaining what the “COST” will be to use them; He would not be a loving, fair and just God.

It would be like me giving you a ipod; and then making it impossible for you to use it, because I deny you the necessary service.

As far as I can tell, this is why I have moral discernment.

Salvation is a PROCESS involving MANY absolutely necessary things. Grace and Faith get you admission, but your stuck at the door unless you GET MORE.

That’s okay. I’m not looking for salvation. I’ll settle for doing what’s right, by the light of my God-given conscience.

 

[PJM]

=dingodile;8576047]I’m trying.

Okay.

As far as I can tell, this is why I have moral discernment.

That’s okay. I’m not looking for salvation. I’ll settle for doing what’s right, by the light of my God-given conscience.

Good and very GOOD! But is that all God expects, or all that you should settle for?

A conscience is somewhat similar to a unused note pad. It starts out blank, and it is UP TO US to fill it with things and ideas that will help us. But if we only reply on our lives experiences we MAY be missing vital information. So we must endeavor to learn ALL that is TRUE, and ALL that is Good, in order that we WILL KNOW what God expects from us.

That then becomes the RIGHT USE of the Spiritual gifts God has given to us for this very purpose.

Isa.43: 7, 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that ***they might ***declare my praise.”

John 5: 37 “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

Saint Jerome said: “Ignorance of the Bible is ingnorance of God.” Prudence and common sense demand that we form our conscience to CONFORM with ALL God’s makes available for us to know that is Good.

Eph.5: 6-11 “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them, for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.”

**Deut.30: 19 **“I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore ***choose life, that you and your descendants may live,” ***

God Blessing be with you!

Pat