I'm not a Catholic because

[PRmerger]

So again, while devotion and piety are necessary and useful, it may not be wise to claim, as some seem to on here, that their,or the Church’s knowledge is whole or complete.

Could you please provide an example of a Catholic here claiming that “the Church’s knowledge is whole or complete.”

My Church states that she is imperfect.

From our Catechism: “The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though imperfect.” CCC 825

 

[CMatt25]

What do you mean Matt? who said , not necessarily everything has been wholly or completely revealed. I thought revelation ended with the death of Saint John.
Peace, CArlan

Hi Carlan, I’m paraphrasing here. Because I’ve been around the CAF block a few times and it’s been awhile since my discussion. But when I was at one time discussing the differences between faith and 100% absolute certain truth, I seem to recall being told what has been revealed through the Catholic Church is truth that we can know with certainty. But that we don’t know all things of God which have not been revealed to our finite human minds. But you know how things go and not everyone gets it right and I myself may have even misunderstood.

 

[CMatt25]

Now we’re getting into interpretation of faith beliefs. And I might be wrong in my assessment but something tells me, Pat, you and IVoice and others aren’t going to always agree on interpretation and possibly not even interpretation of history as interpreted by the Catholic faith.

 

[CMatt25]

Does you’re church Understand and ACCEPT the real Presence? The Absolutely necessary Sacrament of Confession for actual FORGIVNESS of sin? Or the primacy of peter and the CC? ALL of these are biblically proveable, so you’t can’t ACTUALLY be a bible-believing-church without accepting these and other teachings

Now we’re getting into interpretation and faith beliefs. And I might be wrong in my assessment but something tells me, Pat, you and IVoice and others aren’t going to always agree on interpretation and possibly not even interpretation of history as interpreted by the Catholic faith.

 

[1voice]

Did you forget this one:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

1Cor 12
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

“Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples” (John 13:35).

For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1 Cor 12:12-13).

Always keep yourselves united in the Holy Spirit, and bind yourselves together with peace. We are all one body, we have the same Spirit, and we have all been called to the same glorious future. There is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and there is only one God and Father, who is over us all and in us all and living through us all (Eph 4:1-6).

 

[CMatt25]

Jn 10:16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

I’m kinda thinking maybe when in faith the One Shepherd comes again, we’ll all know then the sheep of various folds.

 

[Michael19682]

What do you mean Matt? who said , not necessarily everything has been wholly or completely revealed. I thought revelation ended with the death of Saint John.
Peace, CArlan

If I read your question correctly, Paul said it in his Letter to the Romans.

Romans 8:18-19

consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us.
19
For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God;

 

[Carlan]

Hi Carlan, I’m paraphrasing here. Because I’ve been around the CAF block a few times and it’s been awhile since my discussion. But when I was at one time discussing the differences between faith and 100% absolute certain truth, I seem to recall being told what has been revealed through the Catholic Church is truth that we can know with certainty. But that we don’t know all things of God which have not been revealed to our finite human minds. But you know how things go and not everyone gets it right and I myself may have even misunderstood.

Sorry Matt for butting in back there, i am guilty of skipping thru earlier posts and just jumped to conclusions
I later thought you might have been talking about Inspiration and revelation,and found this, When God inspires one to search for Truth and meaning and where it ends in unfolding one of God’s mysteries we speak of divine revelation. Meaning that God reveals some aspect of Himself or the human condition in and through man’s effort to find out.( hope I’m making sense). Hence, “everything in the Bible is inspired but not everything is revealed”(Pirre Benoit) . Sometimes inspired searching for meaning can lead to that which will not qualify as revelation from God ,
peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Jn 10:16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

I’m kinda thinking maybe when in faith the One Shepherd comes again, we’ll all know then the sheep of various folds.

After reading that , I thought well if they don’t hear before they die they will hear it in Purgatory whether they believe in the State or not. God loves his children and wants us all one in Him.We pray, Peace, Carlan

 

[PRmerger]

If I read your question correctly, Paul said it in his Letter to the Romans.

Romans 8:18-19

consider that the sufferings of this present time are as nothing compared with the glory to be revealed for us.
19
For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God;

This “glory to be revealed” is heaven, Michael.

 

[Michael19682]

Of course it’s possible to make such a lie.

Sure. Doesn’t that make sense? Even out of the confessional reason dictates that if you apologize to your friend and receive her forgiveness, but you absolutely did not mean a single word of your apology, your friend’s forgiveness is false and invalid.

“If we say, ‘We have not sinned,’ we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 Jn 1:10

I said in my previous post that “Our lies do not make him a liar”. I retract that statement.
The Chruch holds that John was speaking with the aid of the holy spirit. It appears that at least with regard to that specific lie, we can make him a liar. Notable, however, is his use of the collective pronoun “we” and not the singular “I” - so it to me seems possible, from this verse only, that he could be talking about the Church, or any two or three gathered in his name, getting together and imagining and professing themselves sinless. Something the Church has never done; Or, rather, a heresy the Church has recognized and avoided.

As for the alleged sin of lying to the priest of your sorrow in the confessional: Your reply is an assertion based on what I am not sure. The prayer we use to express sorrow is called an ‘act’ - which word, due to the tradition of theatre in all cultures has become a corrupted word. As actors demonstrate and as lies show, words need not be true to be uttered. Yet still the priest prescribes penance, which suggest to me that the ‘act’ is not fully made until the penance is said or done. Do there exist any Church documents on this subject that you know of?

Other things I would consider when asking the holy spirit about this matter:

1. the sacrament is called Reconciliation. This implies a separation of the sinner from the church. That separation, along with the very circumspect nature of a confession - which is about past sins - throws possible doubt on whether the meeting of the priest and the penitent satisfies Jesus’ condition of “two or three gathered in [his] name” My inclination is to believe that the meeting does not qualify as such until the priest gives absolution and the penitent is given again the power to be a communicant in the Eucharist. If not, then his reception of communion would be invalid; which would invalidate the sacrifice of the lord and possibly the communion of the whole congregation. Yet Bishops have the power to declare a communion invalid; for example, if soy product is used instead of wheat to accommodate the rare person with Celiac’s disease.
2. The penitent begins by saying “Forgive me father for I have sinned.” By calling the priest Father, he acknowledges the closeness of the presence of the priest as the presence of God. One cannot lie to God. He knows everything and cannot be deceived. Furthermore, there is this verse of scripture:

Mark 13:22.

“…to perform signs and miracles, and to deceive the elect - if that were possible.” Apparently, this is a subject open to interpretation. Jesus uses the word “if”. Who knows everything?

 

[Michael19682]

This “glory to be revealed” is heaven, Michael.

The poster said that he thought all revelation ended with the death of John. I guess my response reflected my belief that the body of Christ ascended to heaven and that both the physical sight of his resurrected body and the kingdom of heaven are part of the revelation that cannot be fully understood on earth. The Lord used many parables to bring us close to this heaven we hold in our faith. He gives us his body in communion as a foretaste of the joy of his kingdom. Still, earth is not heaven.

 

[PJM]

=xyzzjp;8752065]because most catholics do not sin in fear of redemption.
and this religion does very little to satisfy my 21-year old hermonal needs.
If I do not live my life according to catholic rules I will go to hell although I try my best to help all around me. that’s not right.
Happy new year!

My dear friend in Christ;

I HATE to be he bearer of Bad News

But those "rules are Not the property of the CC alone they are they 6th and 9th Commandments which obliage and BIND every mortal being on planet earth.

Exo. 20:
And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.”
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day”
"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. “
4. "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.
5. "You shall not kill. “
6. "You shall not commit adultery”.
7. "You shall not steal”.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.”
9. “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; or property”
10.“you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbors.”

Further dear friend these are ONLY catagories of sins; by no-means the entire list, so ANY sexual activety outside of marriage is a Mortal Sin, as is the wide practice of using contraception. IF people do NOT reprent; and Confess [Jn.20:19-23], and change their life styles HELL will be an EXTREMELY busy place.

Because God MUST BE Fair and Just in-order to Be God; everyone, regardless of faith background or beliefs will be Judged not only on what they know, or accept to believe, BUT on what God makes POSIBE for them to know.

God Bless you,
One can deny God BUT never hide from our All-Knowing God,
Pat

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Romans 12: 1-2
do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,
that you may prove what [is] that good and acceptable and perfect
will of God.

Ephesians 5: 26-27
So that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word.

Oh, I see. You have ‘spliced’ some phrases in the Scripture together. That is why when you posted the quote, you were not able to give it a ‘chapter and verse’ because the QUOTE you gave is NOT found in the Bible AS you quoted it.

Matt 24: 35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Quite true, but where does this then say that “the words in my bible are the ONLY Christian authority?”

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. Quite true. Christ is THE WORD. Scripture, however, is not Christ, now is it? Scripture is His WRITTEN word. . .and Scripture itself mentions (see John) that ALL that Christ said, did, and taught, is NOT contained in the ‘written word.’ Especially what is NOT contained in the written word is ANY word which states that the WRITTEN WORD is ‘the authority’. Because a written word cannot be an authority. Only a person can be an authority. The written word is NOT 'the WORD" who is Christ. A book is not a person.

Psalm 138:2
for you have exalted your Word above all your name Same thing. THE WORD is Christ, and Christ is NOT ‘his written word’ alone.

Psalm 119:89
Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.

Yes it does. Where does the ‘written word’ claim to be the authority?

 

[PJM]

=Michael19682;8755216]“If we say, ‘We have not sinned,’ we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 Jn 1:10

I said in my previous post that “Our lies do not make him a liar”. I retract that statement.
The Chruch holds that John was speaking with the aid of the holy spirit. It appears that at least with regard to that specific lie, we can make him a liar. Notable, however, is his use of the collective pronoun “we” and not the singular “I” - so it to me seems possible, from this verse only, that he could be talking about the Church, or any two or three gathered in his name, getting together and imagining and professing themselves sinless. Something the Church has never done; Or, rather, a heresy the Church has recognized and avoided.

Michael sin is always a personal offense aganst God. Every person can say both yes or NO to sin. And Only the Catholic Sacrament of Confession can forgive sins after Baptism. "“We” MEANS EVERYONE on earthJohn 20:19-23

]As for the alleged sin of lying to the priest of your sorrow in the confessional: Your reply is an assertion based on what I am not sure.

Intentional lying invalidates the sacrament of Confession. Forgetting a sin does not.

Other things I would consider when asking the holy spirit about this matter:

1. the sacrament is called Reconciliation. This implies a separation of the sinner from the church. That separation, along with the very circumspect nature of a confession - which is about past sins - throws possible doubt on whether the meeting of the priest and the penitent satisfies Jesus’ condition of “two or three gathered in [his] name” The penitent begins by saying “Forgive me father for I have sinned.” By calling the priest Father, he acknowledges the closeness of the presence of the priest as the presence of God

**The priest is termed “father” as He represents God the Father. It remains God, not the priest who forgives our sins; thus he use the term “absolve” Not “forgive”

Never-Ever can one passage void the teaching of another passage; this is an Infallible Rule. Jesus as God has only one way after Baptism for sins to actually be forgiven. The Sacrament of Confession **[Jn.20: 19-23]

And the words we say ARE:“BLESS ME FATHER FOR I HAVE SINNED” NOT “FORGIVE ME FATHER”

“…to perform signs and miracles, and to deceive the elect - if that were possible.” Apparently, this is a subject open to interpretation. Jesus uses the word “if”. Who knows everything?

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, if we lie, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

No Michel; interpretation is NOT one of the options God gives to just everyone.

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Jesus speaking to the Apostles: Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

May God Bless and GRANT you right understanding!

Pat

 

[Carlan]

The poster said that he thought all revelation ended with the death of John. I guess my response reflected my belief that the body of Christ ascended to heaven and that both the physical sight of his resurrected body and the kingdom of heaven are part of the revelation that cannot be fully understood on earth. The Lord used many parables to bring us close to this heaven we hold in our faith. He gives us his body in communion as a foretaste of the joy of his kingdom. Still, earth is not heaven.

The revelation of the Truth of the Trinity , Father Son and Holy Spirit God’s mercy and salvation, had all been revealed during Christ’s lifetime on earth, before he went to be with the Father. The Apostles passed that revelation onto to their successors and so on until the end. That is why we are called the Apostolic Church.
And this, Inspiration and revelation.
For Christians, the Bible is inspired by God. God Chose the time 2000 to 3000 years ago for the people, the Jews and their Hebrew culture, to reveal Himself.
Guided by God, the Hebrew genius interpreted history, war and peace, birth and death, famine and abundance, happiness andd and frustration, success and failure, in the light of God’s presence to his people.
Christians, regarding themselves as decendents of God’s chosen people of ancient times, share this interpretation of life, The Bible reflects the restless search for life’s meaning, as the Hebrews wrestled with it.
As believers see it, this search was guided by God, which is the reason we takee note of it.
Believers understand that ultimately God Himself speaks to them in Scripture.
( from my notes
peace, Carlan

 

[PJM]

=CMatt25;8753023]Now we’re getting into interpretation and faith beliefs. And I might be wrong in my assessment but something tells me, Pat, you and IVoice and others aren’t going to always agree on interpretation and possibly not even interpretation of history as interpreted by the Catholic faith.

Alway’s and everytime thre can and their os only One truth possible per pecise issue. The person articulating the position expressed by the Pope ot Magesterium [the church] wins

God Bless,

Pat

 

[Michael19682]

Michael sin is always a personal offense aganst God. Every person can say both yes or NO to sin. And Only

I say “Forgive me.”

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, if we lie, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

No Michel; interpretation is NOT one of the options God gives to just everyone.

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Jesus speaking to the Apostles: Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”

May God Bless and GRANT you right understanding!

Thank you Pat.

I don’t know the proper decorum for requesting that a Priest or religious who may be following this thread please intercede. I’m too weak and possibly incapable of living a consecrated life. I know I have written about it giving the impression that I know what it means, and that I did this according to my own understanding of words makes me think I am in error.

 

[PRmerger]

“If we say, ‘We have not sinned,’ we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 Jn 1:10

I said in my previous post that “Our lies do not make him a liar”. I retract that statement.

If you say so.

Your position is: Our lies DO make God a liar."

That’s certainly not the Catholic POV, but if you want to argue for that, I suppose that’s your right.

 

[PRmerger]

Notable, however, is his use of the collective pronoun “we” and not the singular “I” - so it to me seems possible**, from this verse only**, that he could be talking about the Church,

Why must we glean any sort of theological understanding from one verse only?

That is a very peculiar sort of paradigm to espouse!

Note to lurkers: this is absolutely NOT a Catholic paradigm. We Catholics need not look at a single verse and come to any understanding of God. Rather, we understand the Scriptures in light of the Tradition which brought us these Scriptures.