I'm ok with hell

[psychemusic]

Hello all,

I’m arriving a little late in this discussion but if it hasn’t been mentioned already, there is a book published by TAN entitled “Hell: Illustrated by Facts Taken From Profane and Sacred History”, originally by Fr. F.X. Schouppe, S.J. There are a lot of anecdotes about damned souls who testify to the reality of Hell and its torments. (So as not to leave the reader scared out of his wits, there is a second larger section on how to avoid hell, which I thought was a very practical guide in moral theology.)

After reading this book, however ok one might be with hell doctrinally, there will be no consolation but only torment. Although I understand what you’re saying (Neithan) from an intellectual point of view, to take consolation in God’s justice against onesself when one is suffering in eternal hell seems to me a bit chimerical.

But your motive behind this construct appears ultimately to be to avoid scrupulosity, which is perfectly understandable. My wife has noted to me (rightly) that I suffer from this on occasion as well. To the best of my understanding, such as it is, scrupulosity can be avoided by avoiding the sins of presumption and despair, and of course frequenting confession and growing in the practice of perfect contrition.

 

[Neithan]

I was only saying that Pani Rose was likely responding to that word.

Not you.

Get it now?

…but anathemas are against persons, not words. That’s why the councils always articulated 'if someone says [such and such heresy] then let him be anathema.’

But we’re digressing.

 

[Pani_Rose]

No, it’s not healthy…And you won’t be “Ok” with hell when you get there. It will be HORRIBLE.

You need to develop a friendship with God. I don’t think you really know Him that well yet.

Exactly! That is what I meant by anathama. What you have said is not at all in agreement with the Word of God! May I suggest this prayer - God, Maker of all creation, accept these prayers of appreciation and petition from us sinners, and deliver us from any fatal fall into darkness and from all enemies, visible or invisible. Lord, who loves everyone, by Your great mercy, You have sent Your only son, our Lord, Jesus Christ, for the salvation of all, and by Your Holy Cross, have cancelled the debt of our sins and defeated the powers of darkness. Penetrate our bodies with Your power and wrap our hearts with love in You, that we might always gaze upon You and be guided by Your eternal light. We give unending praise and thanks to You, eternal Father, to Your only Son and to Your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Pani_Rose]

For some reason when I post on CAF everything is getting pushed together the paragraphs are not separting. Hope you can read it to make sence.

 

[Pani_Rose]

And I apologize if I have offended or hurt anyone. Just that thought coming from you as a child of God, whom he loves very much - it is like condeming yourself. iT IS NOT AGAINST YOU AS A PERSON. The Catholic Church does not teach ‘predestination’. It does teach we are all called to be children of God. Scripture says faith comes by hearing and hearing by tthe Word of God. No where is Scripture does it say that you shoud be OK with hell. That is a lie of satan, and it is heretical. You are looking to find peace with yourself in Christ Jesus, but making a statement like that is not the way to find it. SPEAKING IN AGREEMENT WITH THE WORD OF GOD IS THE WAY TO PEACE IN CHRIST JESUS through prayer and supplication in all things give praise and honor to our Lord.

 

[Pug]

The Catholic Church does not teach ‘predestination’.

I think it depends on what you mean by the word. The Church surely uses the word. It is here in the CCC.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

 

[Pani_Rose]

I think it depends on what you mean by the word. The Church surely uses the word. It is here in the CCC.

Yes, I see that. That is what I was saying, but I guess I didn’t say it right, when I stated we are all called to be children of God. It is truly through the choices we make in our lives, the yes and no we give to God that helps to determine where we are headed, as it says with our free will. So then, why speak ‘against’ what the Word of God says in Scripture? That is what I don’t understand. Speak according to God’s Word and he will make provision for you to be where you should be (I dont’ mean you personally - you as in anyone of us is what I mean). God is our Provider, he will not let our feet to stumble. He says if we humble ourselves and seek his face, he will hear our prayers, and heal our nation. Nation can be a country or our lives individually. So, if we truly believe in what God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - have taught us, then there is no reason to be ‘ok with hell.’

 

[Pug]

It is truly through the choices we make in our lives, the yes and no we give to God that helps to determine where we are headed, as it says with our free will. So then, why speak ‘against’ what the Word of God says in Scripture? That is what I don’t understand.

I agree, we do make our life through choices. Haven’t you ever found this frightening for a minute, though? Even if for the last 40 years we have made choices that are correct, we are able to throw that away in one moment. Looking back on my life I can see that from time to time I make insane, stupid choices. I have no way to guard myself against doing that again sometime. So hell can seem like a looming possibility, hanging by the thread of one stupid choice somewhere in the unknown future. This is conditioned by our awareness of our frailty. At that point, the best comfort I have is to place the situation in God’s hands. He will do a better job than me of warding me away from some unknown choice. I beg him for the grace of perseverance to the end. I can see no better course of action than to trust God and continue to follow on the way.

Perhaps that is what OP wishes to say, that if he trusts in God to care for him and he does his best to cooperate with grace, then there is no more to be done, so he is done with worrying about it beyond that.

I agree with you that we ought to speak in accordance with God’s word. Also, I agree that what is spoken in scripture is true. God will not renege. Trust in the Lord, he is our help and our salvation. He is ever faithful.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I am in the closing pages of my second read of Benedict’s “Jesus of Nazareth” and he speaks about the fear the apostles experienced at times…at these times, he states, the apostles were in various ways confronted with the fact that this Jesus is in fact God - and in the face of this they tremble. I can understand this. It is not that one fears God per se, rather that even the vague and remote ‘sight’ of the grandeur or God is a fearsome matter and one trembles in the face of it. …to quote from Page 351 of “Jesus of Nazareth”…“Obviously their fear is of the kind that is typical of “theophanies” - the sort of fear that overwhelms man when he finds himself immediately exposed to the Presence of God Himself…”… it reminds me of the quote from the Old Testament "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God’. We are after all only human and creatures of God…confronted even remotely with the Reality of God, we tremble and are fearful and fall down in adoration, or rather the Reality of God commands us to our knees with trembling adoration - just as the apostles were in their own ‘theophanies’.

As long as breath is in a person, be it saint or Pope or ordinary little person in the street, we have free will and reality of choosing God or not God, good or evil, Heaven or Hell is a potential choice we all have. As long as breath is in me I desire Heaven and I fear Hell and the choices leading to either I either desire or I fear knowing both are in ‘my radar’ of choice. I am as much subject to temptation as any and temptation is temptation because it tempts…temptation I fear too. But all this is not a the fear of a slave, rather the fear that is of a friend who knows weakness and fears it.

"The beginning of wisdom is Fear of The Lord’

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I am in the closing pages of my second read of Benedict’s “Jesus of Nazareth” and he speaks about the fear the apostles experienced at times…at these times, he states, the apostles were in various ways confronted with the fact that this Jesus is in fact God - and in the face of this they tremble. I can understand this. It is not that one fears God per se, rather that even the vague and remote ‘sight’ of the grandeur or God is a fearsome matter and one trembles in the face of it. …to quote from Page 351 of “Jesus of Nazareth”…“Obviously their fear is of the kind that is typical of “theophanies” - the sort of fear that overwhelms man when he finds himself immediately exposed to the Presence of God Himself…”… it reminds me of the quote from the Old Testament "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God’. We are after all only human and creatures of God…confronted even remotely with the Reality of God, we tremble and are fearful and fall down in adoration, or rather the Reality of God commands us to our knees with trembling adoration - just as the apostles were in their own ‘theophanies’.

As long as breath is in a person, be it saint or Pope or ordinary little person in the street, we have free will and reality of choosing God or not God, good or evil, Heaven or Hell is a potential choice we all have. As long as breath is in me I desire Heaven and I fear Hell and the choices leading to either I either desire or I fear knowing both are in ‘my radar’ of choice.

Barb

 

[Jacafamala]

Indeed. ANGELIC PEACE gave a pretty thorough summary!
Of course we’ll hate God if we end up in hell. We’re not there yet!

I definitely don’t know Him as well as I would like to. Do any of us?

Yes. And when you know God, you’ll never want to be without Him. I’m glad to hear you say that you’d like to know God. You can start to get to know God better by asking Him to reveal himself to you.

Yes, Neithan it’s as you say: if we end up in hell, we’ll hate God. This would be our greatest misery because we were created for Him. If you love Him, if you want Him and not hell, then God’s not going to let you slip away from Him all that easily. You ought to read St. Faustina’s book, Divine Mercy. I think it could help you.

 

[Neithan]

Perhaps that is what OP wishes to say, that if he trusts in God to care for him and he does his best to cooperate with grace, then there is no more to be done, so he is done with worrying about it beyond that.

Precisely. I am ‘ok with hell’ in the sense that I ‘let go and let God’ with regard to my ultimate judgment. It is a fearsome thing, but worrying about it is futile and harmful. Our religion is rife with paradox, and this is one of them. Fear judgment and hell for what they are, but ‘peace be with you!’; love God, trust in His mercy and have no anxiety for tomorrow.

 

[Neithan]

I am in the closing pages of my second read of Benedict’s “Jesus of Nazareth”
…]

…]
You ought to read St. Faustina’s book, Divine Mercy. I think it could help you.

I will read both of these books!

p.s. I pray the Divine Mercy chaplet regularly.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Both make great reading, Neithan…and Benedict’s book probably particularly to those with a “theological and intellectual turn of mind”…

As this thread as unfolded on harkening back to my own journey…there are times when I have feared God and His Justice, feared Hell, and lacked any feeling at all of God’s Mercy, rather quite to the contrary…and there have been times in my journey when quite the opposite applies. What is at the essence and core of both passages in time within my overall journey is what Faith teaches and to hold to that under all circumstances and ‘all comers’. This is why I have a particular love and joy in Catholic Theology (flowing from Scripture always) which reflects that great Mercy of God apparent in the Old and New Testaments…and whereas I may pick a particular text from either Testament, our Catholic Theology in all branches is formed from gifted (The Holy Spirit) insight into and understanding of the Old and New Testament as one whole.

Barb

 

[Sarpedon]

Precisely. I am ‘ok with hell’ in the sense that I ‘let go and let God’ with regard to my ultimate judgment. It is a fearsome thing, but worrying about it is futile and harmful. Our religion is rife with paradox, and this is one of them. Fear judgment and hell for what they are, but ‘peace be with you!’; love God, trust in His mercy and have no anxiety for tomorrow.

Do you define “worrying” as that which is in accord with reason or that which is against it?

 

[Neithan]

Do you define “worrying” as that which is in accord with reason or that which is against it?

Not sure what you mean by that.

Worry, as in anxiety about a future outcome, is bad. Our Lord said as much in Matthew 6 and Luke 12.

 

[hansgsa]

Hell is indeed a very nasty place. In fact ‘nasty’ doesn’t even begin to cover what hell is really all about.:ehh: Suffice it to say - nobody - absolutely nobody in their sane mind would want to live seperated from Jesus for all eternity. God is love. What would it be like to live for all eternity rejecting that glorious love.

I’m separated from my wife and kids. For the last year and a half I have been sending my wife and kids e-mails, presents, cards and letters. I get nothing in return. It’s as if they don’t even know I exist. This wounds me so utterly deeply - I just can’t understand it. It is like a bitter taste of what Hell might be like.

Well, Hell is like that - only there’s no hope for consolation. No light at the end of the tunnel. It is utter and complete despair - without any good buddies to pull you out of that rut. OUCH!

Luther(no, no - not Lex Luthor!) - Martin Luther was so obsessed with sin that he became, in a way, neurotic about the whole issue. He decided to ‘cure’ this neurosis by saying – OK, OK, I’m saved and that’s all there is to it. WRONG!

The key thing with Catholicism is this: We believe in heaven, hell & purgatory, but in essense we must strive every day to LOVE Jesus. This means embracing virtue & fighting against our own sinful nature. My worst enemy is not the devil - but rather - that guy I always see staring back at me every morning in the mirror. Like Pio says: our soul is our battlefield.

So what’s the final answer??:knight1: Do good. Love Jesus. Go to confession monthly! Read the Bible and the Catechism so you really know what ‘good’ is. (so many Catholics are mixed up on their ‘faith’ these days). I think it’s really important to study the lives of the Saints. They show us how to be courageous in the battle we must fight. Love our Lady & St. Joe with special devotion. Now, with all that - I think you’ve made a pretty good start. What do you think?

Pax et bonum

 

[mercygate]

Sometimes I think that when we die, we are given a video tape (dvd. computer chip?) that contains every moment of our lives on it. Every bad deed, every nasty act, every moment of grace, etc.
And Hell is having all this played before you and Heaven is being allowed to view the edited version.

Hmmm. Interesting. In this scenario, I would think Hell would be looking at the unedited video and not understanding why any of our bad deeds and faithlessness should have kept us out of Heaven.

 

[Sarpedon]

Not sure what you mean by that.

Worry, as in anxiety about a future outcome, is bad. Our Lord said as much in Matthew 6 and Luke 12.

By being “in accord with reason” I mean that the fear is based in reality and appropriate to the level of fear. For example, fearing Hell because you have mortal sin on your soul is good, because it will help you escape harm.

By not being in accord with reason, I mean that the fear is based on irrationality. For example, fearing Hell even though you have no mortal sins on your soul, because you are not in danger of it. You cannot go to hell without an unforgiven mortal sin on your soul, so your fear is not rational.

(fear of Hell in general is I think a good thing, even if we are not actively in fear of going there.)

 

[nkbeth]

Precisely. I am ‘ok with hell’ in the sense that I ‘let go and let God’ with regard to my ultimate judgment. It is a fearsome thing, but worrying about it is futile and harmful. Our religion is rife with paradox, and this is one of them. Fear judgment and hell for what they are, but ‘peace be with you!’; love God, trust in His mercy and have no anxiety for tomorrow.

I like what you said above, but I have a few comments on this post and previous posts.

First, I think you should get rid of the phrase ‘ok with hell’. I understand you are only using it in a certain sense, but that isn’t how many people read it when they see it alone. They might think it means being ok not only with just punishment and pain, but with hating God forever, and (in the remainder of our life) killing our souls, and crucifying Christ again. I know you’re not OK with that!

Christ isn’t OK with hell for any of us, even though He knows whether we are among the reprobate or (by His grace) among the elect, and even though He knows that it is only by His grace that we are saved. Christ wants “all men to be saved” Timothy 1 2:4, and that is why He died for us. Christ would never appear to someone who was worried about going to hell and say “if you are a reprobate, so be it” or “don’t worry about going to hell, because whatever happens will be due to my eternal plan which is all just”.

But I think I somewhat understand what you meant when you first said:

I’m OK with hell and
If I am a reprobate, then so be it.

If I were thinking (too much!) about God’s eternal plan and how the elect and the reprobate were predestined, I might worry that “God knows already whether I am among the reprobate or the elect. O no! which one am I?”

I might then pray “God I know your eternal choice for me is just. I accept going to hell as a reprobate, if that is what you’ve chosen”.

But this thinking (or prayer) leaves out the here-and-now time before us, where we must use free will, and if we cooperate with God He will bring us to heaven. This thinking is about a Divine mystery - God’s predestination of all men. In our own lives (where God is present every moment) it is the very worst thing to say we’re “ok with hell”.

I think that worrying about where we’ve already been predestined should be a thing we put behind us as soon as we can. It is our merciful Father’s business, and His mystery; it is not really our business. We need to work out our salvation, by His grace, in our own lives as they stretch before us.

Of course we should trust in God as to our “ultimate judgment”. But mostly this should mean trusting in His help to reach heaven, which (by God’s mystery) is always His choice for us. I think that “let go and let God” refers mostly to how we lead our lives now, by His grace working in our free will.

In the Gospel Christ so often told us why we should not worry about anything. One example that seems to fit here:

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you” Luke 12 12:31

Don’t worry about hell; if you follow God He will lead you to His heavenly kingdom. Hold trustingly onto God’s hand, and follow Him where He leads you. Don’t let go of God! …but if you do, reach up again and He will take your hand once more (even as you take His). Let go of yourself, let go of your worries, but don’t let go of God or stop seeking Him. If you stop seeking Him - if you don’t let Him help you - then, it is time to worry about Hell.