I'm Really Bothered By Something Someone Said

[pinay]

I just don’t belong with them because I frankly don’t care how good someone’s economic or immigration policies are - if they support mass murder, I cannot support them. (And by the way, this goes for both sides of the aisle!)

I am suprised to see this part of your post. I understand that you, yourself choose not to support political personalities according to your most important issue. This is completely understandable and just fine. But to feel yourself isolated from others because of one agenda in a non-Catholic (and I would presume non-religious) college is applying the same prejudice as that guy posting on facebook.

Because, in a non-religious setting, abortion is a social issue. Pro-choice doesn’t automatically mean that a person thinks that people should murder babies. It only implies that the person prefers that an individual be given a choice in the matter instead of the government dictating the action. It offers the option that people have a different opinion on when a fetus gains a soul - and therefore qualify for human. If you don’t bother to ask what their personal conviction is on the beginning of life, then you basically just applied the same prejudice on those people that the facebook person applied to Christians.

Religious bigotry can go both ways. It is possible that your feeling of isolation may be of your own persuasion and not that people choose to isolate you.

I’m sorry if this sounds harsh. It’s just my honest take on things. And it’s only worth 2 cents…

 

[CMatt25]

I am suprised to see this part of your post. I understand that you, yourself choose not to support political personalities according to your most important issue. This is completely understandable and just fine. But to feel yourself isolated from others because of one agenda in a non-Catholic (and I would presume non-religious) college is applying the same prejudice as that guy posting on facebook.

Because, in a non-religious setting, abortion is a social issue. Pro-choice doesn’t automatically mean that a person thinks that people should murder babies. It only implies that the person prefers that an individual be given a choice in the matter instead of the government dictating the action. It offers the option that people have a different opinion on when a fetus gains a soul - and therefore qualify for human. If you don’t bother to ask what their personal conviction is on the beginning of life, then you basically just applied the same prejudice on those people that the facebook person applied to Christians.

Religious bigotry can go both ways. It is possible that your feeling of isolation may be of your own persuasion and not that people choose to isolate you.

I’m sorry if this sounds harsh. It’s just my honest take on things. And it’s only worth 2 cents…

:clapping: But Pinay trust me they are not going to understand that pro choice does not mean people want to murder babies.

 

[benidict]

Thanks Mekite.

It’s never too late for a kind word! haha

Especially now - I’m stuck at home on finals week with a flu and a sinus AND ear infection. Life just all around sucks right now!!

Prayers for your swift recovery.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I am suprised to see this part of your post. I understand that you, yourself choose not to support political personalities according to your most important issue. This is completely understandable and just fine. But to feel yourself isolated from others because of one agenda in a non-Catholic (and I would presume non-religious) college is applying the same prejudice as that guy posting on facebook.

Because, in a non-religious setting, abortion is a social issue. Pro-choice doesn’t automatically mean that a person thinks that people should murder babies. It only implies that the person prefers that an individual be given a choice in the matter instead of the government dictating the action. It offers the option that people have a different opinion on when a fetus gains a soul - and therefore qualify for human. If you don’t bother to ask what their personal conviction is on the beginning of life, then you basically just applied the same prejudice on those people that the facebook person applied to Christians.

Religious bigotry can go both ways. It is possible that your feeling of isolation may be of your own persuasion and not that people choose to isolate you.

I’m sorry if this sounds harsh. It’s just my honest take on things. And it’s only worth 2 cents…

So to you a 3-month fetus is simply a “clump of cells” that does not have a soul yet, right?

BTW, she feels isolated from Fellow Catholics at her college because they choose to support (and want her to support) candidates that support social justice but are also pro-choice. Which is specifically against the teachings and morals of the Catholic Church. Hoe dare she be true to her church’s teachings.

Catholic leaders are very clear----------one cannot be Catholic and support pro-choice candidates. Period.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

So to you a 3-month fetus is simply a “clump of cells” that does not have a soul yet, right?

BTW, she feels isolated from Fellow Catholics at her college because they choose to support (and want her to support) candidates that support social justice but are also pro-choice. Which is specifically against the teachings and morals of the Catholic Church. Hoe dare she be true to her church’s teachings.

Catholic leaders are very clear----------one cannot be Catholic and support pro-choice candidates. Period.

Thank you Melkite.

And I am not all that shocked that non-catholics came on here to call me bigoted for holding to my religious views. I guess they illustrated the point I have about people not respecting my beliefs and calling me “bigoted” for them because I refuse to change for THEM.

Hey guys, if you want to argue about abortion and prochoice/prolife for the millionth time, find an abortion thread, mmkay?

 

[pinay]

So to you a 3-month fetus is simply a “clump of cells” that does not have a soul yet, right?

Wrong. I didn’t say that. And I never did.

But, there are others who are non-Catholic and non-LDS who do not believe that a fetus without a soul is human. And that’s the source of the debate - nobody can prove beyond reasonable doubt that a soul enters the fetus at conception. If you can prove it, you will be the first.

Therefore, in the absence of proof, we, the religious, cannot impose our religious beliefs on others using the arm of the LAW. You would feel the same way if a Catholic imposes the LAW that all babies be baptized by a Catholic priest. Although necessary for their salvation, one cannot force such things on a free people. And that’s all that it means to be pro-choice… giving each individual the power to choose according to their own conscience. A very catholic concept, by the way.

BTW, she feels isolated from Fellow Catholics at her college because they choose to support (and want her to support) candidates that support social justice but are also pro-choice. Which is specifically against the teachings and morals of the Catholic Church. Hoe dare she be true to her church’s teachings.

Catholic leaders are very clear----------one cannot be Catholic and support pro-choice candidates. Period.

And that’s what I’m trying to say… my understanding is that it is a non-Catholic, and possibly non-religious college. If the person feels he is isolated - then he must have a very specific criteria of who he associates with. So, he chose to be isolated…

And if you read my post again - you will see that I told the OP that his choice to not support pro-choice candidates is commendable. Read it again and you might understand what I’m trying to say better.

By the way, the Catholic Church - as is the LDS Church - are not political churches… that is - they do not tell anybody how to vote on the ballot box unlike Iglesia Ni Kristo or any of those other political churches. They have their own teachings and encourage each person to weigh their voting decision according to their Catholic/LDS faith.

Therefore, according to Catholic/LDS practice - a person has the freedom to choose to vote for the guy who is pro-choice but anti-gay-marriage as opposed to the guy who is pro-life and pro-gay-marriage… or abstain from voting… if there was only those 2 choices… that vote, if made according to a person’s trust in God, does not put his salvation in peril.

 

[JonNC]

Thank you Melkite.

And I am not all that shocked that non-catholics came on here to call me bigoted for holding to my religious views. I guess they illustrated the point I have about people not respecting my beliefs and calling me “bigoted” for them because I refuse to change for THEM.

Hope you didn’t take mine that way.

From my post #29

I didn’t see many, if any, non-Catholic responses, so here’s mine. I am so sorry that this is the experience you are having at college. It would be trite to say you’re at the wrong college (is there a good Catholic school near you), because finances, majors, etc. often dictate the school one attends.

So, lacking any solutions, I’ll pray for your peace of mind. And encourage you to allow the Spirit to comfort you, and keep you strong in your faith

Jon

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Hope you didn’t take mine that way.

From my post #29

Jon

No, Jon, not at all. I’m sorry I didn’t respond to you but you were right about your post. I’m stuck where I am due to geography. I believe God has me here for a reason, but it’s a hard road. :hug1:

 

[CMatt25]

Hey guys, if you want to argue about abortion and prochoice/prolife for the millionth time, find an abortion thread, mmkay?

K but it was you who brought up “mass murder”.

 

[pinay]

Hope you didn’t take mine that way.

From my post #29

Jon

Yeah, I think he took mine that way.

I said, bigotry can go both ways - and he automatically assumed I called him a bigot. I guess it’s understandable from the way I worded the post. All I was saying is that, sometimes we don’t realize that we are as devoted to our prejudice as the ones who are trying to attack us.

For example, the statement that somebody who supports Pro-Choice wants to murder babies - that’s bigotry.

Okay, so now, I called whoever said that a bigot. Hmm… I need to apologize for that. I don’t intend to label anybody. I just don’t know how else to express that particular sentiment in the Christlike manner that it was intended.

So, yeah, I think I just need to shut up now before I dig a bigger hole!

Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Catholic leaders are very clear----------one cannot be Catholic and support pro-choice candidates. Period.

Whether Catholic leaders are clear or not doesn’t affect my personal voting decisions so it doesn’t particularly matter to me whether they are or not. But there’s the USCCB citizenship voting guide. And I’m not certain but CAF and EWTN for instance may have their own.

I know I have heard it said Catholics are not to vote for a pro choice candidate just because the candidate is pro choice. But that differs from not being able to vote for a pro choice candidate.

Anyway at these links I also find:

“The Church does not support **or oppose **any candidate”

"Do show that you truly respect different points of view on the issues or candidates—that good people can disagree on specific matters without rancor

Peace

faithfulcitizenship.org/resources/dos_and_donts

faithfulcitizenship.org/all/family_guide

 

[GlendaTheGood]

The title says it all. I was reading a friend’s Facebook page to catch up on his life and see if he and his wife could come down next weekend, and I came across this comment that his friend made:

I don’t know why this one in particular is bugging me so bad - I deal with a lot of anti-Catholicism and anti-christian bigotry at my University, but this comment really just set me off.

I think maybe I’m just stressed with finals, but I am also feeling a sense of despair. My friend knew that I am catholic, and he didn’t defend me or Catholics at all. I guess I am just feeling really isolated. I don’t belong in my University because I am a christian, and if I seek out Christians I am isolated because I am Catholic. There is a small group of catholics on campus, but they are…well, politically isolating me. Their focus is social justice (which is great) but they are always talking about how great pro-abortion candidates are because of other issues. I just don’t belong with them because I frankly don’t care how good someone’s economic or immigration policies are - if they support mass murder, I cannot support them. (And by the way, this goes for both sides of the aisle!)

I just feel like a square peg in a round hole, and this comment is causing me anguish as it is a reminder of how outcast I feel. I guess I am just looking for a little solidarity here. I just don’t understand why we can’t all just Love Jesus and love one another and help each other get to heaven instead of spewing hatred and bigotry.

University opens doors to knowledge and experience. Part of the experience is being surrounded by others who believe differently than you do. Why are you trying to close doors? If your faith is solid you have nothing to fear. Tolerance is a good thing here. Try it.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Thank you Melkite.

And I am not all that shocked that non-catholics came on here to call me bigoted for holding to my religious views. I guess they illustrated the point I have about people not respecting my beliefs and calling me “bigoted” for them because I refuse to change for THEM.

Hey guys, if you want to argue about abortion and prochoice/prolife for the millionth time, find an abortion thread, mmkay?

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

K but it was you who brought up “mass murder”.

And you know, of course, that from a Catholic POV, that is exactly what abortion is.

Of course you may/may not disagree. Fine.

Just don’t get bent out of shape when she refers to something she strongly and firmly opposes by what she believes to be its proper name.

OTOH, some Pro-Choicers themselves get bent out of shape when Pro-Lifers say that using the term “clump of cells” is disrespectful and dehumanizing. How dare we say that.

Not saying you’ve used the term----but a lot of folk who are Pro-Choice DO use that term. I’m also not saying you are Pro-Choice-----simply stating that it is wrong of you to get bent out of shape simoly because Whitacre_Girl calls it as she sees it just like you call things you see them.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Whether Catholic leaders are clear or not doesn’t affect my personal voting decisions so it doesn’t particularly matter to me whether they are or not. But there’s the USCCB citizenship voting guide. And I’m not certain but CAF and EWTN for instance may have their own.

I know I have heard it said Catholics are not to vote for a pro choice candidate just because the candidate is pro choice. But that differs from not being able to vote for a pro choice candidate.

Anyway at these links I also find:

“The Church does not support **or oppose **any candidate”

"Do show that you truly respect different points of view on the issues or candidates—that good people can disagree on specific matters without rancor

Peace

faithfulcitizenship.org/resources/dos_and_donts

faithfulcitizenship.org/all/family_guide

True indeed, CMatt25----but you forget the Church makes it very clear that while one is technically free to vote for anyone, a TRUE CATHOLIC would NEVER vote for a Pro-Choice cnadidate. Church leadership also makes it clear that it strongly urges everybody who votes to vote exclusively for pro-life candidates. Corapi says that all the time.

One can indeed vote Pro-Choice, but it would be going against the basic tenets of the Church. One would not be a Catholic in good standing. If one is a politician and is Catholic and Pro-Choice, then one opens him/herslef up to being denied communion, Example: Joe Biden.

So you saying the Church “does not support any candidates” does not mean it does not have preferences for folks that follow its teachings. Whoch it enjoins its followers to support.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Wrong. I didn’t say that. And I never did.

But, there are others who are non-Catholic and non-LDS who do not believe that a fetus without a soul is human. And that’s the source of the debate - nobody can prove beyond reasonable doubt that a soul enters the fetus at conception. If you can prove it, you will be the first.

Therefore, in the absence of proof, we, the religious, cannot impose our religious beliefs on others using the arm of the LAW. You would feel the same way if a Catholic imposes the LAW that all babies be baptized by a Catholic priest. Although necessary for their salvation, one cannot force such things on a free people. And that’s all that it means to be pro-choice… giving each individual the power to choose according to their own conscience. A very catholic concept, by the way.

And that’s what I’m trying to say… my understanding is that it is a non-Catholic, and possibly non-religious college. If the person feels he is isolated - then he must have a very specific criteria of who he associates with. So, he chose to be isolated…

And if you read my post again - you will see that I told the OP that his choice to not support pro-choice candidates is commendable. Read it again and you might understand what I’m trying to say better.

By the way, the Catholic Church - as is the LDS Church - are not political churches… that is - they do not tell anybody how to vote on the ballot box unlike Iglesia Ni Kristo or any of those other political churches. They have their own teachings and encourage each person to weigh their voting decision according to their Catholic/LDS faith.

Therefore, according to Catholic/LDS practice - a person has the freedom to choose to vote for the guy who is pro-choice but anti-gay-marriage as opposed to the guy who is pro-life and pro-gay-marriage… or abstain from voting… if there was only those 2 choices… that vote, if made according to a person’s trust in God, does not put his salvation in peril.

“His choice?” The Op is a woman, Pinay. The OP is Whitacre_Girl.

And if you read my previous post, you will see that I stated the fact that simply because the CC does not “technically” promote any candidates does not mean it does not expect DEVOUT CATHOLICS to vote for candidates that adhere to what the Church believes is the Truth----and certain Truths of the Catholic Church are Non-Negotiable, BTW. Two of those things are Abortion and Gay marriage. The Church will not tell you who to vote for, but it will also make it clear that those who vote pro-choice and pro-gay marriage are not in good standing with the Church. Not being good Catholics, in other words.

As to the idea that we ECs and CCs are forcing our beliefs on people who disagree------I admit I’m puzzled by that statement. All we are doing is expressing our beliefs that disagree with Non-Catholic and Non-LDS viewpoints and maintaining what we firmly and sincerely (and confidently, I might add) believe to be the truth according to natural law, scripture, and tradition going back at least two thousands years. Stating that we think that our views are the truth and allowing others to state their “truth” and engaging in discussion and argument over that is NOT pushing anything on anybody.You basically want us to say-----“since we cannot prove it, you’ll believe what you want and I’ll believe what I want” is wishy-washy and denies the search for truth and how to find ut what the Ultimate Truth is through argument and discussion and legislation.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

University opens doors to knowledge and experience. Part of the experience is being surrounded by others who believe differently than you do. Why are you trying to close doors? If your faith is solid you have nothing to fear. Tolerance is a good thing here. Try it.

Her faith is strong----apparently, though, there are some “Social Justice Catholics” who want her to go against the beliefs of the Catholic Church and vote for people she cannot in good conscience do.

Tolerance does not mean one has to go against the tenets of one’s Faith simply because some who do not follow their own faith want one to.

 

[CMatt25]

And you know, of course, that from a Catholic POV, that is exactly what abortion is.

Of course you may/may not disagree. Fine.

Just don’t get bent out of shape when she refers to something she strongly and firmly opposes by what she believes to be its proper name.

OTOH, some Pro-Choicers themselves get bent out of shape when Pro-Lifers say that using the term “clump of cells” is disrespectful and dehumanizing. How dare we say that.

Not saying you’ve used the term----but a lot of folk who are Pro-Choice DO use that term. I’m also not saying you are Pro-Choice-----simply stating that it is wrong of you to get bent out of shape simoly because Whitacre_Girl calls it as she sees it just like you call things you see them.

Ordinary, I’m not the least bent out of shape. And I have no desire to debate abortion on this thread. I just didn’t understand Whitacre G instructing ppl to find another thread to do it on when it was she who brought the issue up in the first place. But you’re right. I have never personally call the unborn a clump of cells. Peace man.

 

[CMatt25]

True indeed, CMatt25----but you forget the Church makes it very clear that while one is technically free to vote for anyone, a TRUE CATHOLIC would NEVER vote for a Pro-Choice cnadidate. Church leadership also makes it clear that it strongly urges everybody who votes to vote exclusively for pro-life candidates. Corapi says that all the time.

One can indeed vote Pro-Choice, but it would be going against the basic tenets of the Church. One would not be a Catholic in good standing. If one is a politician and is Catholic and Pro-Choice, then one opens him/herslef up to being denied communion, Example: Joe Biden.

So you saying the Church “does not support any candidates” does not mean it does not have preferences for folks that follow its teachings. Whoch it enjoins its followers to support.

From what I know about the Catholic faith, a true Catholic is truly a Catholic by Baptism. But sure. I grant you “good standing” can be another matter entirely. And I gather Fr Corapi says it all the time. But I’m going to assume the father is not a bishop though I really don’t know. And if I’m not mistaken he’s also the father who Catholics here attribute to saying a person can not be pro choice and Catholic. But yes they can. They just perhaps aren’t in as faithful a standing. But according to my understanding at least the Catholic Church identifies them as Catholic even if Fr Corapi for instance does not. OM, even excommunicated Catholics are Catholics from my understanding. Peace

 

[CMatt25]

University opens doors to knowledge and experience. Part of the experience is being surrounded by others who believe differently than you do. Why are you trying to close doors? If your faith is solid you have nothing to fear. Tolerance is a good thing here. Try it.

:clapping: