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Montalban
Guest
That’s not true. One could do a study of a theory that had no people following it - or do you think historians are unable to deal with Aztec faith because no one has human sacifice anymore?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
boog,
So if you ideologically and theologically attack Islam you physically attack Muslims, do you?
No. You just expose Islam as being the evil religion that it is.
Oh… by the way, it is possible to evacuate a building before you destroy it. That’s what the building demolition experts do. They clear the building (and its surrounds) of people and then blow it up.
So if you ideologically and theologically attack Islam you physically attack Muslims, do you?
No. You just expose Islam as being the evil religion that it is.
Oh… by the way, it is possible to evacuate a building before you destroy it. That’s what the building demolition experts do. They clear the building (and its surrounds) of people and then blow it up.
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bobzills
Guest
I don’t think that this is the official Catholic point of view, is it?
For example, the present Pope prayed in a mosque in Turkey.
And the previous Pope bowed and kissed the Koran. Why would a Pope, the Vicar of Christ on Earth, publicly kiss the Koran, unless it was a good book from the Catholic point of view?
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
No, but it should be.
Because he hasn’t read the Quran nor lived like an oppressed dhimmi?
B
bobzills
Guest
Maybe according to you. But it looks like this is not the way the Catholic Church sees things. Remember, the Vicar of Christ has publicly kissed the Koran.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Lucky I’m not bound against all reason to take the Pope’s kissing of the Quran as some injunction against telling the truth. Phew!
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Verisimilitude
Guest
No other faith has a billion+ people with holy words that can rightly be taken as a god given mandate to attack those who do not accept Mohamed and his message.
Most of what are termed Islamic countries today were for almost 1000 years before 1850, under a very different system that you experienced; not to disparage yours in the least. Muslim superiority was institutional and legal for centuries much like America’s slavery period for about 200 years with respect to mistreating other human beings of another color instead of religion. It is not uncommon and should be acknowledged. America has proven that is a difficult thing to overcome in 142 years.
I’m sure those you met were very nice, as most people in general are; being a child of God regardless of ideology. But ideologies are different and they were in their comfort zone - as it were. The rules for non-Moslems were severe and humiliating causing most to convert long ago except a very small minority(s) everywhere except Arabia in Islamic countries. Islam by nature is intolerant to other faiths. It demands respect and superiority when in the majority of a society, but offers little to none in return to the minority. When Islam is a minority in democratic and Western nations they demand the equality their faith denies to other minorities. That is a hard fact to deny, but to dismiss or underscore that fact perpetuates Islam’s illegitimate respectfulness. Bigotry and discrimination mandated by allah is intolerable to the God I know.
It is a hard thing to do… to conquer the world. Many have tried like Hitler and Germany, to the many Caesar’s of Rome. Mohamedism has not been swept into the dustbin of history like the others. There are a few small whack-job groups that still follow Hitler, but few if any that follow Augustus. How many North Koreans willingly follow its dictator, and why/how is that different and the same than Islam and Moslems?
The Islamic military expansion actually stopped a long time ago because controlling the world is hard, but the fighting within didn’t. The ideology has not been altered in the last century to anything different than the 1300 before it, it just made it have a respite that it is recovering from and getting stronger.
~cont
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Verisimilitude
Guest
~cont
Somewhere I read letters written by French and British envoy’s that first occupied the ME in the late 19th century that described how the dhimmi Jews and Christians - all non-Moslems- enjoyed the enforced equality of Colonial law with respect to the indigenous people that was denied them for ages. Short lived because in the early 20th century the Colonial powers through a world body gave legal self autonomy to the Islamic countries we know of today.
A few years ago the free world boycotted South Africa to end Apartheid, and it worked. The world has notably taken sides in at least two major conflicts based upon secular and religious ideology within 100 years; with most agreeing the outcome was better than the alternative would have been. The Cold War ended cold.
Islam is a similar danger in my view. Even if you think the ‘real’ ideology of Islam is peaceful, there is a relatively large segment of that faith that practices it otherwise making it dangerous to be in opposition to it as seen in Madrid, London, and NY/DC/PA.
Many Moslems on this very site justify those deeds while denouncing it in the same twisted way they clear Moahmed of all wrongdoing and personal failings of character with respect to marriages, women, slaves, war, and non-believers.
Islam does not mean peace. There is a clear call to fight disbelief until all is for allah.
Jihad is almost always understood as an external physical battle rather than an internal personal struggle like many are saying today.
Justice as I see it is non-existent in Islam.
These are not irrational conclusions. What seems irrational about Islam is so many accept it as rational. Other than the individual, nice, peaceful human beings that are Moslem you have met or know, what is respectable about Islam? What tenet or act of faith do you find respectful enough to make those tenets you hold less worthy of respect acceptable?
If you say the devotion to prayer as admirable, but then give Islams treatment of women a pass in order for you to be tolerant to Muslims, you give credence to it’s treatment of women by proxy. If I question women’s treatment under Islam, I will be accused of hating Muslims. It doesn’t make it true, but so be it.
If you think the treatment of women is respectful, then maybe the Qurans falsehoods about Christ will be enough to make it not worthy of the respect it demands of you. We are commanded to lover our enemies, but we are not commanded to give them strength to defeat us.
If Moslems can’t conclude for themselves by reading the Quran and hadith Mohamed was not an honorable man by any standard in any age, and his message is one of war, oppression, injustice, and fear for both those who follow him and those subjugated by it; then I have no moral obligation much less a willingness to allow that ideology to go unchallenged on this forum or in the real world.
I have no intention of breaking my own faith in its defense, but defense is warranted and just.
Somewhere I read letters written by French and British envoy’s that first occupied the ME in the late 19th century that described how the dhimmi Jews and Christians - all non-Moslems- enjoyed the enforced equality of Colonial law with respect to the indigenous people that was denied them for ages. Short lived because in the early 20th century the Colonial powers through a world body gave legal self autonomy to the Islamic countries we know of today.
A few years ago the free world boycotted South Africa to end Apartheid, and it worked. The world has notably taken sides in at least two major conflicts based upon secular and religious ideology within 100 years; with most agreeing the outcome was better than the alternative would have been. The Cold War ended cold.
Islam is a similar danger in my view. Even if you think the ‘real’ ideology of Islam is peaceful, there is a relatively large segment of that faith that practices it otherwise making it dangerous to be in opposition to it as seen in Madrid, London, and NY/DC/PA.
Many Moslems on this very site justify those deeds while denouncing it in the same twisted way they clear Moahmed of all wrongdoing and personal failings of character with respect to marriages, women, slaves, war, and non-believers.
Islam does not mean peace. There is a clear call to fight disbelief until all is for allah.
Jihad is almost always understood as an external physical battle rather than an internal personal struggle like many are saying today.
Justice as I see it is non-existent in Islam.
These are not irrational conclusions. What seems irrational about Islam is so many accept it as rational. Other than the individual, nice, peaceful human beings that are Moslem you have met or know, what is respectable about Islam? What tenet or act of faith do you find respectful enough to make those tenets you hold less worthy of respect acceptable?
If you say the devotion to prayer as admirable, but then give Islams treatment of women a pass in order for you to be tolerant to Muslims, you give credence to it’s treatment of women by proxy. If I question women’s treatment under Islam, I will be accused of hating Muslims. It doesn’t make it true, but so be it.
If you think the treatment of women is respectful, then maybe the Qurans falsehoods about Christ will be enough to make it not worthy of the respect it demands of you. We are commanded to lover our enemies, but we are not commanded to give them strength to defeat us.
If Moslems can’t conclude for themselves by reading the Quran and hadith Mohamed was not an honorable man by any standard in any age, and his message is one of war, oppression, injustice, and fear for both those who follow him and those subjugated by it; then I have no moral obligation much less a willingness to allow that ideology to go unchallenged on this forum or in the real world.
I have no intention of breaking my own faith in its defense, but defense is warranted and just.
S
Sura10_Ayat94
Guest
MOHAMMAD DID WHAT…? (Violence recorded in the Hadith)
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that ***Allah’s Apostle ***(may peace be upon him) stoned (to death) a person from Banu Aslam, and a Jew and his wife. Book 017, Number 4216:
***“The Prophet gave orders **concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” *Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515
Abd Allah ibn Sa’ed (Omr ibn al-Khatab servant) said: “Arab Christians are not Christians, I am not leaving them until they become Muslims or I cut their throats.” (Kanzu ‘umal – al mutka al hindi – vol. 4, No. 11770) Omar ibn al-Khatab (the second caliph)
"The prophet (Mohammad) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterize (their bleeding limbs) till they died". Sahih Al- Bukhair, Vol 8, Book 82, Hadith 795.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, “***Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” ***Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “***O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” The Prophet said, “You may say it.” ***(Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369)
Sira, p463-4: Then they {the tribe of Quraiza} surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of Bani al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy bin Akhtab and Kab bin Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. This went on until the Apostle made an end of them.
“Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe: embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).” (Mohammad Ibn Ismaiel al-Bukhari: The Translation of the meanings, vol.4 book 56, no. 2941, translated M.Khan (1997) –source ‘Religion of Peace by Robert Spencer (2007)
Example: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. *Then they killed the shepherd *and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). ***They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died ***(Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)
Another Hadith also a chilling note: “when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) (reference form ‘Inside Islam’ Pg. 120)
’If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’" Sahih Al-Bukhari: Vol 4, Book 52, No 260
Great exemplar to the world as an ‘alleged’ last prophet for mankind! ***
DID JESUS COMMAND or COMMITT ANY OF THIS**. **yet what is critically important is that according to Allah himself (speaking through Muhammad via the Qur’an) Muhammad is the most “beautiful pattern of conduct” and “example” for mankind to follow *(Qur’an 33:21)
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that ***Allah’s Apostle ***(may peace be upon him) stoned (to death) a person from Banu Aslam, and a Jew and his wife. Book 017, Number 4216:
***“The Prophet gave orders **concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” *Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515
Abd Allah ibn Sa’ed (Omr ibn al-Khatab servant) said: “Arab Christians are not Christians, I am not leaving them until they become Muslims or I cut their throats.” (Kanzu ‘umal – al mutka al hindi – vol. 4, No. 11770) Omar ibn al-Khatab (the second caliph)
"The prophet (Mohammad) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of Uraina and did not cauterize (their bleeding limbs) till they died". Sahih Al- Bukhair, Vol 8, Book 82, Hadith 795.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said, “***Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” ***Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “***O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab).” The Prophet said, “You may say it.” ***(Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369)
Sira, p463-4: Then they {the tribe of Quraiza} surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina in the quarter of d. al-Harith, a woman of Bani al-Najjar. Then the apostle went out to the market of Medina and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches. Among them was the enemy of Allah Huyayy bin Akhtab and Kab bin Asad their chief. There were 600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900. This went on until the Apostle made an end of them.
“Now then, I invite you to Islam (i.e. surrender to Allah), embrace Islam and you will be safe: embrace Islam and Allah will bestow on you a double reward. But if you reject this invitation of Islam, you shall be responsible for misguiding the peasants (i.e. your nation).” (Mohammad Ibn Ismaiel al-Bukhari: The Translation of the meanings, vol.4 book 56, no. 2941, translated M.Khan (1997) –source ‘Religion of Peace by Robert Spencer (2007)
Example: Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. *Then they killed the shepherd *and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). ***They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died ***(Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”) (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261)
Another Hadith also a chilling note: “when judgment day arrives, Allah will give every Muslim, a Jew or Christian to kill so that the Muslim will not enter into hell fire.” (Mishkat Al-Messabih, vol. 2, no.5552) (reference form ‘Inside Islam’ Pg. 120)
’If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’" Sahih Al-Bukhari: Vol 4, Book 52, No 260
Great exemplar to the world as an ‘alleged’ last prophet for mankind! ***
DID JESUS COMMAND or COMMITT ANY OF THIS**. **yet what is critically important is that according to Allah himself (speaking through Muhammad via the Qur’an) Muhammad is the most “beautiful pattern of conduct” and “example” for mankind to follow *(Qur’an 33:21)
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Montalban
Guest
I’m still waitng for boog123 to deal with any of the evidence I’ve presented here.
Not uncommon for a Moslem to attempt diversion on these threads by turning to attack poster’s motives. Their own motives then become suspect.
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Montalban
Guest
For me I was upset by this, although I’m not a Catholic.
The Koran - kissing it, would be to me like kissing Mein Kampf
A
Aramis
Guest
I’m Catholic, and it gave me great pause.
I’ve no hatred of muslims, only of their religion.
And as to the burning house metaphor used by boog…
They are welcome to flee the house before it’s burned to the ground. In all likelyhood, WW III will be muslims vs everyone else… because radical islam and even semi-radical (sharia accepting islam) is inextricably linked to political and social engineering on a grand scale. The religion and the political agenda are inextricably linked, both historically and in the present.
Moderate muslims have never been able to prevent nor even curb the radicals from both arising and coming to political activism, often by violence, and always with oppression. At best, the moderates have been around after the particular explosion of radicalism ran its bloody course.
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Montalban
Guest
How long?
(did you pause? )Same here. Although I must sound condascending by saying I feel sorry *for *Moslems
Problem is it was not a religion founded by a moderate.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
The first and foremost source of guidance for a Muslim is Quran.
The second is actions (Sunnah) of Muhammad, the truthful ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH; these are in fact already incorporated in the Quran yet required action of the ProphetMessenger. These two existed side by side
The third source is Hadith collected about 250 years after Muhammad, and is only to be believed if the first two (Quran and Sunnah) support it, otherwise not.
My friends here sometimes present something which has no origination in Quran and Sunnah, so their efforts go waste. Kindly keep it in mind, this is necessary for those who do not want to create wedge or widen it between Islam and Christianity with its 33000+ denominations.
Thanks
The first and foremost source of guidance for a Muslim is Quran.
The second is actions (Sunnah) of Muhammad, the truthful ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH; these are in fact already incorporated in the Quran yet required action of the ProphetMessenger. These two existed side by side
The third source is Hadith collected about 250 years after Muhammad, and is only to be believed if the first two (Quran and Sunnah) support it, otherwise not.
My friends here sometimes present something which has no origination in Quran and Sunnah, so their efforts go waste. Kindly keep it in mind, this is necessary for those who do not want to create wedge or widen it between Islam and Christianity with its 33000+ denominations.
Thanks
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Nino
Guest
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dolphinlove
Guest
My friend Paarsurrey, in saying that, dont you think the same goes for us Christians, that anything presented from the Quran on your behalf is a wasted effort since we dont believe it?
We believe in the bible, and what is contained in the bible.
So i think its best to resolve this by saying we will never believe in the quran, as you will never believe in the bible.
So do you think all your spamming is doing any good? I dont think so…
God Bless
Dolphinlove
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Nino
Guest
OH here we go again…we must apologze for what dead people did to other now…dead people centuries ago…my dad came over from southern Italy at the turn of last century…he had nothing to do with slavery…but I must be made to feel guilty somehow when paid leftwingers like Sharpton and Jackson point their fingers shame shame shame…what nonsense…no one in this country is more smeared then we Italian -Americans…pictured as members of the ‘mob’ in flicks and sitcoms…and horrible politicians like Rudy just helping the smear…get a grip…when the establishment dips its poison pen in your direction …look out…I ,more then once, was asked if I was connected…I would usually answer,sure,see these fancy clothes and my car outside…(a 20 year old jeep) the worst folks I have ever ran up against tho have been what are called ‘wasps’ white anglo-saxon protestants…the best …Jewish ,blacks and asians…so whats the big deal…Jesus was wrongly smeared also…Nino
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Montalban
Guest
Frankly I still don’t get paarsurrey’s idea here - how’s he expect to show Islam’s a rationale religion with spam?
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dolphinlove
Guest
Funny thing is, ive asked him this… twice now i think… still no answer…
M
Montalban
Guest
Remember he’s not here to -]answer questions/-] err… I mean, debate
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