I'm trying to answer an abortion question that my friend asked me

[Nahtch]

Hi! My name is Nate and I am 14. My friend who is a girl asked me a question about abortion (she is pro choice). This might be a common question I don’t really know. I will proceed to quote her. This is over a collection or text messages. This is her response after asking her why she was pro choice.

“I think I should have the right to do what I want with my body?”

“if I get raped, or get stuck with a child I know I can’t raise well, or get pregnant when I’m not ready to have a kid, or even if I just don’t want to have a child, or anything like that”

“and the fact that men literally think they should have any say in what I can and can’t do to my OWN BODY is kinda like. Stupid”

“you’re telling me I should carry this child for 9 months, be sick the entire time, go through expensive medicines and check ups, pay a ton to create a nursery, then go through a painful and expensive process to deliver it, and then continue to raise it for 18 years? Literally? People think they can choose to push ALL OF THAT on a woman and it’s stupid”

"And what if it becomes dangerous? Like, life-threatening to the mother? You’re just deny her an abortion and force her to go through this incredibly invasive process and she’ll probably end up dying in the end anyway. So. That’s what I think. "

“and I’m not saying every woman has to get an abortion, I’m saying she should be able to choose. Because. It’s her body, so men and other women can’t tell her what to do with it, you know? Just, let the woman choose?”

That is her response.
Just a side note, she is Catholic but is not prolife.

Anyway my question is, how do I answer these arguments? I also might post more on this thread so stay here.

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

"…or get stuck with a child I know I can’t raise well, or get pregnant when I’m not ready to have a kid, or even if I just don’t want to have a child, or anything like that”

Well the simple answer in these cases is that they consented to sex, and should’ve realized that they could get pregnant.

 

[Maximilian75]

I think I should have the right to do what I want with my body?

There is a second person inside of you. New DNA, new fingerprints- a whole separate entity.

if I get raped, or get stuck with a child I know I can’t raise well, or get pregnant when I’m not ready to have a kid, or even if I just don’t want to have a child, or anything like that

Rape is less than 1% of abortions. If you’re not ready for pregnancy, don’t have sex. Simple.

“and the fact that men literally think they should have any say in what I can and can’t do to my OWN BODY is kinda like. Stupid”

Well, it’s not your own body. It’s a separate entity. See above.

you’re telling me I should carry this child for 9 months, be sick the entire time, go through expensive medicines and check ups, pay a ton to create a nursery, then go through a painful and expensive process to deliver it, and then continue to raise it for 18 years? Literally? People think they can choose to push ALL OF THAT on a woman and it’s stupid

if you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex

"And what if it becomes dangerous? Like, life-threatening to the mother? You’re just deny her an abortion and force her to go through this incredibly invasive process and she’ll probably end up dying in the end anyway. So. That’s what I think. "

Less than 1% of pregnancies are life-threatening. The vast majority of abortions are those of convenience.

t’s her body

It’s not her body. It’s a separate human life.

This link may be helpful as well

Campaign Life Coalition

 

[Chris.Topher]

For me it’s a simple question of where or not an unborn child is human being. If they are, then abortion is wrong, if they aren’t then I’d agree with her. I would avoid outlier cases as this tends to go nowhere and really is just a haggling via attrition tactic typically.

The reality though is that most pro-choice women see it as more of a question of empowerment rather than of reason or principle.

 

[CatholicGirl1]

Hi Nate! I’m 19 and also have conversations about this stuff with people. First of all, being raped is horrible- but is taking an innocent life replace the horrible deed? No. Two wrongs never make a right. Also, another interesting point is that at conception, the ‘cell’ forms its own unique DNA, different from the mother. It is then its own organism and not part of her body, she is merely the host so it is not her body to do what she wants with. You can also address the fact that women who have abortions also tend to have a higher rate of depression afterwards and in fact many women learn to heal from the emotional scaring of rape by growing with their child once it is born. Finally, what is nine months of discomfort when there are many support groups and programs when there is potentially 80+ years of life at stake (not saying it is easy AT ALL)? If you look up louderwithcrowder, though sometimes crass, he brings up why abortion is wrong in his change my mind videos. Hope this helps and God bless!!

 

[mVitus]

One of her points was about raising a child. Adoption is an option.

 

[gregoryphealy]

@Nahtch, First, I wouldn’t bring her Catholicity into question here by asserting Church teachings and suggesting she obey them. Leave that out. Second, I’d say don’t go into this looking to “answer” her questions. They’re rhetorical questions. She’s already answered them herself, and she doesn’t seem open to alternative answers. You’re her friend, so even if you disagree with her, be charitable as you discuss this with her. Go in with an inquisitive mind. Discussions like these can help you hone your own arguments. I’d suggest asking pointed questions that will help you understand her thought process:

• Is taking innocent human life wrong? (If she doesn’t respond in the affirmative to this, run haha)
• Where do you think a human life (one entitled to the right to life) begins?
• Why do you think an unborn baby isn’t a human life? (“fetus” just describes a stage in a human’s development just like “toddler” or “adolescent”, but they’re all fully human)
• Is it a life if the mother does want it? Should somebody face murder charges for killing an expecting mother’s unborn baby with (for example) crushed up abortion pills in her drink? (This has actually happened, so it’s not a hypothetical)

If she responds and you don’t know how to respond, google it or ask here. There are plenty of pro-life scholars out there. I’d also recommend checking out Steven Crowder’s Change My Mind series for an example of common rebuttals to pro-choice arguments (Part 1, Part 2). If you want more help, feel free to PM me.

 

[Maximilian75]

Cajun, I really love it, but I’m trying to follow the substance and text of the thread, and these pro-life memes are kind of a nuisance and distraction from the substance of the thread

 

[Mary888]

Sometimes it is the man who demands and supports the abortion. Because he is either too young or not wanting a kid with her or a kid at all. The “choice” is not always the woman’s.
Not to mention the fact that aborting in order to have a career is about a woman who just wants what a macho society wants. By macho I don’t mean patriarchal, just a virulent society in which the role model is some single guy who works a lot, is successful. A mother who has a child than gets a nigh-time class degree is viewed as a failure even if in reality she works much harder than the single men, the single woman and even the couple who has a baby. The pro-choice society despises her achievements because she did not get the degree their way and the pro-life despises her struggle because she did not form the family as God said. So the pro-choice buries her in depression because she will never be “all that she can be” while the pro-life assumes God’s role in judging her and lack of rationality.
Pro-choice simply is not representing women as a whole, but some women with certain academic achievements decided by the movement.

 

[Wesrock]

There’s probably a more charitable way to approach this, but I’ll give some quick thoughts.

“I think I should have the right to do what I want with my body?”

Yes, but to a degree. That goes for anybody. We also believe that people should not be able to commit suicide, and restricting access to highly dangerous and addictive drugs is generally considered a good thing. Generally, we do not carry bodily autonomy to absolute extremes. And the choice being made here is not just concerning one body, it concerns two, and on top of that it’s not as if there’s no relationship between the two. There is the relationship of parent and child between them.

“if I get raped, or get stuck with a child I know I can’t raise well, or get pregnant when I’m not ready to have a kid, or even if I just don’t want to have a child, or anything like that”

There are cases where tremendous, emotional sacrifices are made for children, but those sacrifices are our natural responsibility to our children. There is already a child in the picture when one has begun to consider abortion. Let me say, though, that society is often uncaring in choosing how to respond to some very difficult situations. In some cases, there is a clear situation where the mother is the victim of a terrible trauma. But we can’t affirm that it’s okay to intentionally make a victim of another innocent. Walking a holy path can be a very difficult path to walk. Sometimes the burden can be tremendously heavy. We can certainly hope our fellow brothers and sisters will help us carry our cross when the times are tough.

“and the fact that men literally think they should have any say in what I can and can’t do to my OWN BODY is kinda like. Stupid”

There is more than one body at stake, and the idea that we should not have absolute bodily autonomy (drugs, self-mutilation, drugs) etc… wouldn’t seem to fall into just a male versus women category. There is another life at stake.

 

[Wesrock]

“you’re telling me I should carry this child for 9 months, be sick the entire time, go through expensive medicines and check ups, pay a ton to create a nursery, then go through a painful and expensive process to deliver it, and then continue to raise it for 18 years? Literally? People think they can choose to push ALL OF THAT on a woman and it’s stupid”

It’s unnatural and immoral to take the life of one’s own child. A parent has a responsibility to take care of a child. We don’t always get to choose when. We don’t always get to control what life brings us. We sometimes can’t give the cup that’s placed before us that we don’t want to drink from away.

"And what if it becomes dangerous? Like, life-threatening to the mother? You’re just deny her an abortion and force her to go through this incredibly invasive process and she’ll probably end up dying in the end anyway. So. That’s what I think. "

The situation here is very nuanced. Treating the child as a parasite or disease that needs to be cured by killing it is never right. There are circumstances, though, when treating the mother will put the child at great risk and almost surely result in the child’s death, but the child’s death is not the intent. Such treatments can be done morally. That can’t encompass every danger of pregnancy, true.

“and I’m not saying every woman has to get an abortion, I’m saying she should be able to choose. Because. It’s her body, so men and other women can’t tell her what to do with it, you know? Just, let the woman choose?”

There are some liberties that are not our rights and our contrary to our natural responsibilities and moral obligations.

 

[CatholicGirl1]

I do highly recommend Crowder as well! I felt that he explains the illogic behind abortions. It is nice to see someone who is familiar with him as I don’t run into many people who align with conservative thinking.

 

[Nahtch]

UPDATE: now my friend is saying that it a woman is raped and can’t care for a baby, then an abortion must take place? Is this wrong? Is it right? How do I respond to that?

EDIT: ok I think her main arguement/question is, what if a women (usually who is homeless or can’t defend them selves) is raped and the egg is fertilized, and the woman will not be able to provide for the child, is abortion ok?

 

[CatholicGirl1]

Is that life less valuable than another child? No, it is not the child’s fault. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Ever. There are MANY support pregnancy centers all over the country for people in these situations, there truly are no excuses other than trying to justify sin. These places help with care doctors and adoption processing for when the baby is born. Never forget there is an innocent life in the matter.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

UPDATE: now my friend is saying that it a woman is raped and can’t care for a baby, then an abortion must take place? Is this wrong? Is it right?.. I think her main arguement/question is, what if a women (usually who is homeless or can’t defend them selves) is raped and the egg is fertilized, and the woman will not be able to provide for the child, is abortion ok?

Deliberately killing an innocent child is never “ok.”

There are people willing to adopt unwanted children.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Ask your friend if she would approve of the death penalty. What about the death penalty for children of criminals? What about for rapists? Because she is essentially approving the death penalty for the child of a rapist.

 

[CatholicGirl1]

Your friend seems to like hypotheticals, so give her this one in turn: you are a care giver to a very sick person, not by choice but because there is no one else to care. You know they will be better in approximately, let’s say 9 months? But while you care for them is is hard and challenging- would it be okay to pull the plug and let them suffocate and die? Would that not be a sin? How is it different from being pregnant? Both are helpless and have no voices and are completely at your mercy.

 

[Sean77]

I would ask her if she thinks it is a moral decision for a man to rape a woman. It’s his body, he can do whatever he wants with it, right? If her answer is to object to this line of reasoning, then her logic for supporting abortion is flawed. Because when she elects to take the life of her baby, she is inflicting violence upon that child’s body and life, the same as a man who rapes a woman is doing. Our reason for supporting the pro-life argument is consistent. Just as a man does not have the right to use his will to inflict violence on a woman, a woman does not have the right to use her will to inflict violence on her child. I also think it is extremely disconcerting that we have taken the vast minority of cases such as rape, incest, or potentially life-ending medical emergency (not that I agree with these excuses, but just playing devil’s advocate) which is the reason for less than 1% of all abortions, to be the normative determinative factor for making abortion legal for all reasons. You have to be extremely cynical to argue that line of defense with a straight face.

 

[Joe_5859]

UPDATE: now my friend is saying that it a woman is raped and can’t care for a baby, then an abortion must take place? Is this wrong? Is it right? How do I respond to that?

Discussing this issue can often bring heightened emotional responses and a dearth of logical thinking.

With regards to abortion, never forget that Catholics have reason on their side. When I was in college, I took a philosophy course on the morality of abortion taught by a pro-abortion atheist. The first month of the class was spent analyzing these popular pro-choice arguments and pointing out how utterly devoid of logic they are. (He ended up arguing that abortion [and even infanticide] are morally licit because there is no such thing as an immortal soul…but that’s neither here nor there.)

The bottom line with abortion is that the unborn are human beings and it is immoral to kill innocent human beings. The only way to allow for abortion is to argue that either (1) killing the innocent is sometimes okay; (2) the unborn aren’t innocent; or (3) the unborn aren’t human. Most people will not deny 1 & 2. The issue is #3, which is kind of peculiar because fundamental biology quite easily proves that the unborn are, in fact, human beings. But, going by emotions, it doesn’t “feel” like they are human because you cannot see the unborn, and if you could, they would seem so small and undeveloped.

It is a common ploy to appeal to the “hard cases”—such as rape, incest, threat to the mother’s life—but this makes for poor reasoning. You have to look at just what is being “terminated” in an abortion: a living, distinct human person. How that person got there is not relevant to whether or not it is okay to kill that person. I cannot kill my 9 year old son simply because he has special needs and will be a “burden” on my wife and I for the rest of our lives. Having a special needs child is not something I asked for. But do I have to deal with it? I sure do. And killing someone is not the way to deal with it.

People appeal to hard cases because they want people to arrive at their predetermined conclusion without thinking it through. They just want people to react.

Personally, I think it is a good idea to begin by acknowledging how difficult those situations are. Those women are in a tough spot. My heart goes out to them. Not only should it be true that you feel this way towards people who are suffering, but it also helps to deflate any arguments built upon painting the pro-life position as uncompassionate. You might even offer to allow that abortions can be done in these hard cases, and then turn the question around and ask her if she is willing to fight against abortion in the other 98% of cases that are done solely for convenience. If the answer is “No”, then why is she bringing up the hard cases at all except as a distraction?

 

[Zerg]

I don’t know if you are having a debate or trying to evangelise the faith to another person your age. Since you are 14, I would try not to appear big headed and like Mr-know-it-all with too many facts.

Keep it simple with “I believe that life begins at conception and that all life should be treated with dignity until natural death.”

Why don’t you mention quotes from Mother Teresa. Here’s one, “How can you say there are too many children in the world, that’s like saying there are too many flowers.”