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katewithak
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Yes.
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Kevan
Guest
By responding in this way, you seem to imply (without saying it) that you consider it proper to pray to saints and to ask them to do things and provide things. Do I understand you correctly?
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exoflare
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Ricardo Gomez:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_of_Jesus
I saw this very artifact just a couple of weeks ago at this Vatican exhibit in San Antonio. It is called the Mandylion of Edessa. There’s a picture of it here on wikipedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Images_of_Jesus
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exoflare
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First of all, to “pray” to someone doesn’t necessarily imply worship or talking only to God. That is only a Protestant cultural thing that has developed over time and become a huge misconception. You can even look the word up in the dictionary and you’ll see what I mean. To ask a favor of someone is also to “pray” to them, but this definition has fallen out of modern day American English. This is actually why in old English you would hear the phrase “I pray thee…” But anyhow, all prayers are answered by God. We can pray directly to God ourselves, but it’s also a good idea to have other people (on earth or in heaven!) pray for us as well. We’re imploring (praying) them that they do this for us, in other words. Hope that helps.
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Kevan
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Thank you, exoflare. But didn’t you contradict what katewithak wrote?
I’m interested in understanding what Catholics think and do. Anticatholics are incessantly pilloried for not understanding these things. Although I don’t fit the definition of “anticatholic” which many seemed to agree on when the topic was discussed on some thread long ago, I still want to avoid mistakes in thinking.
One problem, as you can see, is that Cathlics themselves seem to differ about what they believe and do. That makes it rather hard for an outsider to get a grip and avoid misrepresentation.
So, exolfare, it is not proper for a Catholic to ask a saint to grant a favor (other than to pray for you), is that right?
I’m interested in understanding what Catholics think and do. Anticatholics are incessantly pilloried for not understanding these things. Although I don’t fit the definition of “anticatholic” which many seemed to agree on when the topic was discussed on some thread long ago, I still want to avoid mistakes in thinking.
One problem, as you can see, is that Cathlics themselves seem to differ about what they believe and do. That makes it rather hard for an outsider to get a grip and avoid misrepresentation.
So, exolfare, it is not proper for a Catholic to ask a saint to grant a favor (other than to pray for you), is that right?
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katewithak
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The Saints are my brothers and sisters and Mary is my mother. It is quite reasonable to ask them to intercede for me with God when something is needed or required, whether it be faith, hope charity. All things necessary come from God. The Little Flower Society is a good example. Or the Shrine to Saint Jude. Patron saints. St. Jude is the patron saint of hopeless causes. St. Nicholas of Myra is the patron saint of children and bakers.
St. Honore is a patron saint of bakers. That is why so many bakeries are on Rue de Honore in France.
St. Rose of Lima is also a patron saint of bakers.That is because she had to leave the bread in the oven of her employer’s house while she went to Mass and she prayed that it would not burn and God heard the prayer.
St. Anthony is the patron saint of those who have lost items- faith, hope charity, keys to the kingdom and keys to the car as well.
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katewithak
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Actually, I have pictures of saints all around the house, arranged along the walls with the family photos as well. I especially like the ones from the twentieth century as they are actual photos and not taken from imagination like the icons. St. Therese, Padre Pio, Elizabeth Stein. I like to talk to them while I do the housework. I do not necessarily ask them for favors. We just converse.
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Kevan
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Somehow I don’t seem to be communicating my question clearly enough. I’ll try again.
Are you now agreeing with exoflare and reversing yourself from what you wrote earlier? At that time you seemed to imply that one may ask the saints to do things and bestow favors. Exoflare has stated that only God answers such requests, and your statement (quoted here) seems to agree, but I hardly think that you would deliberately state opposite ideas in the same thread.
Which do you believe? Do you believe that you can ask the saints to pray for you, but that only God can grant favors and blessings? Or do you also believe that you can ask the saints for things and they, themselves, can do the deeds or provide the things requested?
If the difference between these two choices is still unclear, tell me and I’ll try to state my question more clearly.
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katewithak
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exoflare
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You’re right, however. Some Catholics might not know their faith as well as they should. On the other hand, there is a standard set for everyone by the teaching of the Church. This deposit of the faith remains the same regardless of who tells you what, so what any given Catholic “thinks and does” doesn’t matter so much as what the Church teaches. The majority of those who call themselves “Catholic” for example, have no problem with artificial birth control, but it is still a dogma that it is an intrinsic evil when done willfully and this teaching will never change regardless of how many people adhere to it.
I looked just now at what katewithak wrote, and I need to ask which part exactly did I contradict?
As for your question, I think the best way to put it is that we can ask the saints for whatever we want. However, it is only by the power of God that any of these favors would ever be realized. The difference is that the prayers of one in heaven who has been so purified are a lot more efficacious than those of somebody on earth.
I think this quote explains the desired mindset pretty well:
newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm
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Huguenot
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I totally agree with you …
greetings from France !
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Huguenot
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I’m a Protestant too, I don’t believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist because it contradicts what I read in the ninth and tenth chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews, where the author repeats several times that Jesus Christ’s sacrifice is UNIQUE, that He gave Himself ONCE for our sins …
I don’t know how Catholics formulate it in English, but in French it is clear that for them each Mass is a renewal of the Holy Sacrifice, they even speak of “le saint sacrifice de la messe” , “the holy sacrifice of mass” ; when “consecrating” the bread and the wine, or just after, the priest speaks to God saying “the sacrifice we offer You” , and so on …
that is my main “objection” to the idea of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist .
By the way, it seems to me that American Catholics try to convert Protestants to Catholicism, I don’t see that in France, it is very surprising for me …
In France we collaborate when we can ; we are conscious of our differences, but also of what unites us ; there are common prayer meetings, do such meetings take place in the US as well or not ???
sorry for any possible language mistakes, I’m French and I don’t know the right “Catholic” expressions in English …
Amazing grace ! I was lost IN MY SINS and now I’m found IN CHRIST MY LORD AND SAVIOUR
( a former atheist )
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Huguenot
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“One God, no mediators” : you’d be a good …Protestant !
“For there is ONE God, and ONE MEDIATOR also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
( I Timothy 2:5 )
"And there is salvation in NO ONE ELSE ; for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved "
(Acts 4 : 12 )
"Jesus said to him : “I am the way, and the truth, and the life ; NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER? BUT THROUGH ME”
( John 14:6 )
this last verse was very helpful to me when I was still seeking God ( I’ve been brought up in atheism and the rest of my family are still atheists or agnostics … )
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katewithak
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Huguenot said:
So you do everything yourself? No one around you ever gives you any assistance? You are without any friends you can ask to help you with anything? It is just you and your Father. I am sorry. I do not believe God put you on earth to live in a vacuum.
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katewithak
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I think it is incorrect to say American Catholics try to convert Protestants to Catholicism. Protestants are Protestants because they were Catholic and left. We don’t try to convert Protestants. We ask you not to throw the baby out with the bath water, that’s all.
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Huguenot
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Of course we have friends !!! and we talk with each other, why do you pretend not to understand what I mean ? You must look at the message I answered, I was talking about the mediation of priests, the Church and so on …
If we have problems we can talk to anyone in our church, the minister if we need to talk to him, but they will not be “mediators” between God and us …
In our prayers, in our relationship with God, there are no mediators …we address our prayers to Him only …
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katewithak
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One only needs a mediator when one has sinned. In our Church, we are flawed human beings. We must have a mediator. You have no mediator. I guess because you have no sin. I don’t know. But we do sin occasionally and so we must have a mediator.
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katewithak
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We understand that you talk only to God alone. Try to understand that we do not. Simply put, we don’t. Imagine if you will, you have seriously sinned against your Dad. Have you never asked your Mother tp prepare the way for you, to speak with your dad on your behalf? The Catholic Church is one Body, it is a family. Our saints live eternally, including the Holy Mother. They are in Heaven with Our Father. His Blood flows through us, by the actions of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. Even though the Covenant is everlasting, we do not presume His forgiveness for our transgressions. We know we are in no condition to enter His Presence. We know we are not deserving of His Mercy. We know actually we do not deserve or have a “right” to His forgiveness. Therefore we ask Our Mother to intercede for us.
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Huguenot
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But we have ONE mediator : Christ himself !!!
And when we sin we confess our sins to God ( and if I have sinned against someone, I ask him / her to forgive me ) ; a verse says ( but I don’t have an English Bible with me right now, so I can’t write the exact quotation… ) that if we confess our sins God forgives us…there is a verse that says He is our “defender”, something of that kind, in French it is the same word that we use to speak about someone who defends us during a trial ; I’ll look the verse up in English and write it later …
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katewithak
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Understood-you have one mediator, the Lord Himself. We have a mediatrix as well, because Catholics frequently sin.
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