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[Kevan]

katewithak:

Excuse me. I fail to see the difference. You don’t want Peter to save you, just pray for you. What is is you want Peter to pray for, if not to save you?

To pray for me is not to save me. I’ve prayed for all kinds of people, but I haven’t saved them, healed them, or protected them.

If God heals me of a malady, I don’t say to my friend, “thank you for healing me.” I don’t ask my friend to protect me as I travel.

This use of language in speaking to departed saints would be unique in human discourse. Can you offer any examples of such talk when speaking to folks who aren’t in Heaven?

Consider your earlier example of the boss’s boss: is it correct to say that Peter has the power to give you things as long as he gets permission from God first? It seems that what you said later, that the saints have power with God, is more defensible. It is God who has the power to help us. Others may join us in prayer, but they cannot bestow favors like demigods.

 

[Kevan]

katewithak:

I think at this point you had better define your meaing of prayer. What exactly are you asking? I am sorry- I fail to see where you asked me if the words only and merely are mutually exclusive choices? Which post was that?

The “quote” function of this forum obliterated part of my post when you tried to quote it. If you’ll refer back to my post before (#59), I think you’ll understand.

 

[katewithak]

Kevan:

To pray for me is not to save me. I’ve prayed for all kinds of people, but I haven’t saved them, healed them, or protected them.

If God heals me of a malady, I don’t say to my friend, “thank you for healing me.” I don’t ask my friend to protect me as I travel.

This use of language in speaking to departed saints would be unique in human discourse. Can you offer any examples of such talk when speaking to folks who aren’t in Heaven?

Consider your earlier example of the boss’s boss: is it correct to say that Peter has the power to give you things as long as he gets permission from God first? It seems that what you said later, that the saints have power with God, is more defensible. It is God who has the power to help us. Others may join us in prayer, but they cannot bestow favors like demigods.

I’m sorry, but I believe that having someone as holy as a saint willing to pray for me is a favor in itself.
Have you ever thanked your doctor for healing you? And of course, you receive no pay for plumbing work. What do you say when a client thanks you for fixing his plumbing? Don’t thank me, thank God? His bill is in the mail?

 

[Kevan]

katewithak:

I’m sorry, but I believe that having someone as holy as a saint willing to pray for me is a favor in itself.

As I’ve conceded repeatedly, asking someone to pray for you is not a matter of dispute. The question, as always, is whether or not they do more than that.

Have you ever thanked your doctor for healing you?

By your rhetorical questions, unexplained, you seem to indicate that the saints have power to work miracles by their various charisms. One saint has the gift of healing, one has the gift of locating lost things, one has the gift of recovering lost causes, etc. So, even as we might go to someone in this world who had the gift of healing, ask him to heal us, and then thank him for healing us, even though he did it by God’s power, not his own, even so we might petition the appropriate saint, have him work the miracle, and thank him for it.

Am I stating your belief accurately?

 

[exoflare]

Kevan:

It doesn’t matter as much, but it still matters. When an outsider objects to something Catholic, he’s referring to actual Catholicism. If every Catholic he knows is doing something in the name of Catholicism, and the priests are not vehemently opposing it and disciplining offenders, he has a right to consider it Catholicism.

No, he wouldn’t. Nobody has a “right” to consider anything Catholic teaching if in reality it is not… although an outsider may be sincerely misled by such circumstances and I do understand that. Still, the personal opinions or habits of even a million priests or any other “Catholic” would have ZERO bearing on what the true teachings were. Remember, objective truth is not determined by a consensus of people’s opinions.

Kevan:

Those folks, though, are not doing it as Catholicism. They are disobeying the Church and are quick to tell you so, and the Church clearly opposes the practice without mincing words. A faithful priest, I suppose, teaches his people that this sin must be confessed, and he hears it confessed every week by the same people.

As opposed to what other doctrine, now…?

Kevan:

I explain this in the post just above, where I point out that katewithak implied that the saints bestow the blessings.

There was a huge miscommunication between you two. Don’t worry about it. In any case, the facts are just as I have outlined them to you. If you want further details, however, feel free to ask.

Kevan:

If I wanted someone to pray for me, I wouldn’t say “Please heal me” or “Please protect me as I travel” or “Please turn my career around.”

Bellarmine prescribes a use of language with which I am unfamiliar. Can you offer any example from daily life where we ask someone to give us something or to do something and we really mean for someone else to do it, knowing that the one we’re addressing has no power to do what we’re asking other than to ask someone higher up to do it?

I’ve meditated on this for some time, now, and I can’t come up with a single instance.

I ask my friend who works at a place I’m trying to get employed if he can “get me a job” over there. Even though I fully realize that my friend doesn’t actually sign and approve the papers that say I’m hired (the final act of “getting me the job”), he knows what I’m talking about when I say this.

One word of caution, though… not every spiritual reality is explained so simply. We’re talking about spiritual realities here, and it’s not always possible to “box” all of God’s ways into our limited human understanding.

 

[katewithak]

exoflare:

No, he wouldn’t. Nobody has a “right” to consider anything Catholic teaching if in reality it is not… although an outsider may be sincerely misled by such circumstances and I do understand that. Still, the personal opinions or habits of even a million priests or any other “Catholic” would have ZERO bearing on what the true teachings were. Remember, objective truth is not determined by a consensus of people’s opinions.

As opposed to what other doctrine, now…?

There was a huge miscommunication between you two. Don’t worry about it. In any case, the facts are just as I have outlined them to you. If you want further details, however, feel free to ask.

I ask my friend who works at a place I’m trying to get employed if he can “get me a job” over there. Even though I fully realize that my friend doesn’t actually sign and approve the papers that say I’m hired (the final act of “getting me the job”), he knows what I’m talking about when I say this.

One word of caution, though… not every spiritual reality is explained so simply. We’re talking about spiritual realities here, and it’s not always possible to “box” all of God’s ways into our limited human understanding.

Thank you. It was very hard for me trying to place limits on God’s use of saints. I really don’t know where the line is drawn. If we say God is all powerful and in charge, it seems kind of silly to say He cannot use a saint. Thank you for letting me out of “the box.”

 

[Kevan]

exoflare:

Nobody has a “right” to consider anything Catholic teaching if in reality it is not.

I did not say Catholic teaching; I said Catholicism. If Catholics by the millions do and say something as part of their religion and the Church allows it, the Church cannot legitimately hide behind the CCC and claim that the members are not reflecting real Catholicism.

As opposed to what other doctrine, now…?

I do not understand this question.

I ask my friend who works at a place I’m trying to get employed if he can “get me a job” over there. Even though I fully realize that my friend doesn’t actually sign and approve the papers that say I’m hired (the final act of “getting me the job”), he knows what I’m talking about when I say this.

This should serve to illustrate just how bizarre is the language I objected to in Bellarmine’s quotation. You ask your friend to get you a job; such instances and language are extremely common. But you don’t ask him to hire you, because he’s only your advocate; he’s not someone who can hire you.

Unless, as I was investigating in my last post addressed to katewithak, your friend has had the role of hiring delegated to him by the higher boss. What say you – do the saints have these miraculous charisms which enable them to provide the goods and services that petitioners are requesting?

 

[exoflare]

Kevan:

I did not say Catholic teaching; I said Catholicism. If Catholics by the millions do and say something as part of their religion and the Church allows it, the Church cannot legitimately hide behind the CCC and claim that the members are not reflecting real Catholicism.

Okay… I still don’t know if you’re talking theoretically or about a specific issue here. Which practice are you specifically referring to (if any) that the “Catholicism” flatly condemns, but that so many Catholics supposedly do anyway “as part of their religion”?

Kevan:

I do not understand this question.

(see above)

Kevan:

This should serve to illustrate just how bizarre is the language I objected to in Bellarmine’s quotation. You ask your friend to get you a job; such instances and language are extremely common. But you don’t ask him to hire you, because he’s only your advocate; he’s not someone who can hire you.

Unless, as I was investigating in my last post addressed to katewithak, your friend has had the role of hiring delegated to him by the higher boss. What say you – do the saints have these miraculous charisms which enable them to provide the goods and services that petitioners are requesting?

No, you don’t ask him to hire you. But in the hypothetical case I provided, that would be more analagous to the intention of having the saint answer your prayer purely by his or her own power, separate from God. This of course is an oxymoron, since all the saints are one with God.

As to your question about whether specific charisms are given to certain saints to grant certain favors, I’d have to simply answer “I don’t know.” Whether they do or not, how does this have any effect on what I’m saying?

The bottom line is, the saints are there to help us, and they only do so by whatever gifts God has bestowed upon them. Can you really say that this comes as a surprise to you? The very same statement applies to all of us here on earth!

 

[Huguenot]

katewithak:

And you have a mediatrix, whether you know it or not. You do not have to accept the validity of the Holy Mother in order to be a recipient of her mediation on your behalf.You do not have to be a Catholic in order to be a recipient of her actions on your behalf. You do not even have to be a Christian to be a recipeint of her actions on your behalf.

I DON’T accept the validity of her mediation !!!

 

[Huguenot]

katewithak:

Oh dear, I am not talking about you perse. I am talking about the Protestant Church. It is heretical since it rose up as the consequence of a Catholic priest who rejected Catholicism and went nutty. Therefore heretical. Occasionally we have priests who do this. Unfortunately for Luther, he couldn’t stop what he started. Now there is a contingent who say that Protestants are not heretics because in our modern age they are removed from the times that Protestantism began- they were born into Protestantism therefore they are not heretics. I don’t know why this contingent does not say the same thing about pagans? Most of the early pagans were born into it- does that mean paganistic teachings are not heretical?

Well I’m glad "Luther couldn’t stop what he ( and others ! ) started !!!
And I don’t think he “went nutty”, that’s a bit despising …

 

[katewithak]

Huguenot:

I DON’T accept the validity of her mediation !!!

So?

 

[katewithak]

Huguenot:

Well I’m glad "Luther couldn’t stop what he ( and others ! ) started !!!
And I don’t think he “went nutty”, that’s a bit despising …

You are of course entitled to our opinion. I disagree.

 

[exoflare]

Huguenot:

Well I’m glad "Luther couldn’t stop what he ( and others ! ) started !!!
And I don’t think he “went nutty”, that’s a bit despising …

Have you read anything about Luther’s life at all? “Nutty” is not exaggerating it.

 

[Huguenot]

katewithak:

You are of course entitled to our opinion. I disagree.

what a terrible grin !!! I’ ve got to find one like that…

French Heretic ( and proud of it ! )

 

[exoflare]

Huguenot:

I DON’T accept the validity of her mediation !!!

Your hero Martin Luther sure did!

 

[Huguenot]

exoflare:

Have you read anything about Luther’s life at all? “Nutty” is not exaggerating it.

I thought this thread is meant to speak about doctrine …not about privates lives …even Luther’s …

 

[Huguenot]

exoflare:

Your hero Martin Luther sure did!

I’m not a Lutheran …
And I have no heroes ; Luther and the other reformers are not considered as Popes by the Protestants…

 

[exoflare]

Huguenot:

I thought this thread is meant to speak about doctrine …not about privates lives …even Luther’s …

If you don’t know, don’t answer.

 

[exoflare]

Huguenot:

I’m not a Lutheran …
And I have no heroes ; Luther and the other reformers are not considered as Popes by the Protestants…

No heroes? Does Jesus count?

 

[Huguenot]

katewithak:

We understand that you talk only to God alone. Try to understand that we do not. Simply put, we don’t. Imagine if you will, you have seriously sinned against your Dad. Have you never asked your Mother tp prepare the way for you, to speak with your dad on your behalf? The Catholic Church is one Body, it is a family. Our saints live eternally, including the Holy Mother. They are in Heaven with Our Father. His Blood flows through us, by the actions of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. Even though the Covenant is everlasting, we do not presume His forgiveness for our transgressions. We know we are in no condition to enter His Presence. We know we are not deserving of His Mercy. We know actually we do not deserve or have a “right” to His forgiveness. Therefore we ask Our Mother to intercede for us.

But Jesus HIMSELF intercedes for us !

“Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to MAKE INTERCESSION for them”
( Hebrews 2 : 25 )