Immaculate Conception - Dec 8

[Pug]

I would like to thank all of you for making the effort to get to the bottom of this. Benedictgal mentioned that she looks at the CAF members as her friends. I do as well.

I did call that other parish and found they have a mass on Friday at 5pm, so I just need to do a bit of driving for that to work. I hope things work out for Felix in his parish! Let us know how it comes out.

I feel this issue ought to be clearer than it seems to actually be.

 

[benedictgal]

I do not have a list of all Eastern Catholic holy days, but for instance, if Assumption is not one, they may not have a Divine Liturgy with anything to do with Assumption at all. However, if a Latin Rite Catholic went to the Divine Liturgy on Aug. 15, the obligation would be fulfilled. Day is what matters, not readings used. If one goes to any valid Mass or Liturgy on Dec. 8, the obligation for Assumption is fulfilled. Another Mass or Liturgy would still have to be attended on Dec. 9 (Sunday). What readings are used in the Mass or Liturgy is inconsequential. ourladyswarriors.org/canon/c1205-1253.htm#par2530
Canon Law does not mention anything about the readings of the Mass.

Canon Law does not mention it because it falls under the competency of the Congregration for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and the individual countries’ bishops conferences.

I worked in the Texas Legislautre for 12 years. The Vernon’s Code of Civil and Criminal Statutes spell out what the laws are. However, the different state agencies set up their policies. Canon Law spells out what the laws are for the Church. However, it respects the compentencies of the various Roman Curia congregations and the individual bishops’ conferences. That is where the confusion lies regarding this feast day and the means to satisfy the obligation.

Now regarding my contact with the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship, inasmuch as no one asked me to do so, I did it of my own volition because I wanted to make sure that correct and accurate information was being distributed. I hold a Journalism degree from the University of Texas at Austin. I was taught to check and recheck my sources for accuracy. That is, in fact, what I have tried to do. Obviously, I can’t send you a tape of the conversation nor can I send you the physical copy of the notes that I took. I do, however, stand by what I have written. What I have written, I have written.

 

[Riley259]

This year’s Feast of the Immaculate Conception falls on a Saturday. Is it a separate Holy Day of Obligation or does it count with the Sunday obligation? Thanks in advance.

 

[lak611]

Canon Law does not mention it because it falls under the competency of the Congregration for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and the individual countries’ bishops conferences.

I worked in the Texas Legislautre for 12 years. The Vernon’s Code of Civil and Criminal Statutes spell out what the laws are. However, the different state agencies set up their policies. Canon Law spells out what the laws are for the Church. However, it respects the compentencies of the various Roman Curia congregations and the individual bishops’ conferences. That is where the confusion lies regarding this feast day and the means to satisfy the obligation.

I posted a question about holy days in Eastern Catholic Churches in the Eastern Catholicism forum. I do know that attending Divine Liturgy fulfills Mass obligations for Latin Catholics. For instance, I could choose to attend Divine Liturgy on any Sunday and not have to also attend Mass at a Latin Rite Church. I know it is the same in regards to fulfilling Holy Day obligations for the Latin Rite.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It is separate. You have to go Friday night (for the vigil of Immaculate Conception) or Saturday day (before 4 p.m.) for the Holyday of Obligation. And THEN you have to go AFTER 4 p.m. Saturday (for the vigil of Sunday) or Sunday (any time of the day) for the Sunday obligation.

 

[CuriousInIL]

It is separate. Clearly that is correct. You have to go Friday night (for the vigil of Immaculate Conception) or Saturday day (before 4 p.m.) for the Holyday of Obligation. And THEN you have to go AFTER 4 p.m. Saturday (for the vigil of Sunday) or Sunday (any time of the day) for the Sunday obligation.

The later part of this answer may or may not be correct. See this AAA answer
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=202896
and this thread
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=202749
for the issue of whether the 1st mass must be before 4pm on Saturday or not.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

The bishops dispense most holy days if they fall on a Saturday or Monday. The two exceptions are the ones in December, the Immaculate Conception and Christmas. The Immaculate Conception is our national feast day so it’s always a day of obligation. And Christmas is pretty obvious.

 

[benedictgal]

Tatum Ergo has it correct. According to the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship, the anticipated Sunday Vigil Mass celebrated late afternoon/early evening Saturday does not satisfy the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. In other words, you fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception when you assist at Mass at the anticipated vigil on Friday evening or Saturday morning/late afternoon.

Furthermore, according to the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship, the prayers and the readings must be proper to the feast. Since the Mass on Saturday evening is already for Sunday, this will not satisfy your obligation for the Feast Day.

The thread for Catholic Answers AAA regarding this issue is, unfortunately, incorrect.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

NORMALLY speaking, Mass for Saturday which is NOT the vigil Mass is supposed to be held ‘before sundown’. In SOME places, by the authority of the bishop, that MAY be later than 4 p.m. But if so, there is still a ‘cutoff’ point where the Mass ‘stops’ being the “Saturday day” mass and becomes the "vigil Mass for Sunday’. It is almost unheard of for it to be earlier.

Simply check your parish bulletin. It will tell you what Mass on Saturday is scheduled as the regular “Saturday Mass” which will most likely be listed as “For the Feast of the Immaculate Conception” (of course, some large parishes will have more than one daily Mass even on a Saturday ‘daytime’) and which is the Vigil for Sunday Mass. It will also tell you what time on Friday evening there may be a Mass offered as the “Vigil” for the Immaculate Conception.

 

[benedictgal]

I posted a question about holy days in Eastern Catholic Churches in the Eastern Catholicism forum. I do know that attending Divine Liturgy fulfills Mass obligations for Latin Catholics. For instance, I could choose to attend Divine Liturgy on any Sunday and not have to also attend Mass at a Latin Rite Church. I know it is the same in regards to fulfilling Holy Day obligations for the Latin Rite.

Just as I said before, I have checked twice with the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship. I cannot speak to the Eastern Rite, as I have indicated in my previous posts. The question I directed to the CDW concerned the Latin Rite obligation. Their answer was that the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday does not satisfy the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. They were perfectly clear on this.

 

[lak611]

Just as I said before, I have checked twice with the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship. I cannot speak to the Eastern Rite, as I have indicated in my previous posts. The question I directed to the CDW concerned the Latin Rite obligation. Their answer was that the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday does not satisfy the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. They were perfectly clear on this.

There is no feast day for All Saints in the Eastern Catholic Churches. However, if one attended a regular Divine Liturgy on Nov. 1, it would fulfill the obligation.

 

[benedictgal]

There is no feast day for All Saints in the Eastern Catholic Churches. However, if one attended a regular Divine Liturgy on Nov. 1, it would fulfill the obligation.

I don’t know if you are in the Eastern Rite or Latin Rite, but I believe that the discussion centered on the obligation for Latin Rite Catholics. Furthermore, by constantly bringing up the Eastern Rite, you are adding more to the confusion. It is very obvious that the Eastern Rite has differences with the Lati Rite regarding the issue of Holy Days of Obligation. However, we cannot confuse the two.

I am very well aware that attending DL satisfies the Sunday obligation. However, to constantly bring up the Eastern rite when we are discussing something that is very much a Latin Rite issue only adds more confusion, especially for those whose areas do not have an Eastern Rite, or, are totally unfamiliar with that part of the Church.

 

[ioculator_dei]

Hello benedictgal:

Please do not be offended. This is a sincere question. Why do you believe that this particular question falls under the competency of the USCCB?

Canon 1246 clearly states:

§2. With the prior approval of the Apostolic See, however, the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday.

The Conference of Bishops is only permitted to suppress, or transfer holy days of obligation. It is not permitted by this or any other canon to determine how the obligation may be met. This is determined in canon 1248 (which has already been quoted):

Canon 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

Canon 1248 does not grant the conference of bishops any authority in the matter of how to satisfy the obligation.

Furthermore, the reason that the Eastern Rites are constantly mentioned in this thread is because they are mentioned in this canon.

The Eastern Rites are an argument by analogy: If I could satisfy my obligation on November 1st by attending a Chaldean Memorial DL of Mar Mikha, why can I not satisfy my December 8th obligation by any Mass that occurs that Saturday?

I am asking for the reason behind the answer that USCCB gave you.

Thanks.

 

[benedictgal]

Hello benedictgal:

Please do not be offended. This is a sincere question. Why do you believe that this particular question falls under the competency of the USCCB?

Canon 1246 clearly states:

The Conference of Bishops is only permitted to suppress, or transfer holy days of obligation. It is not permitted by this or any other canon to determine how the obligation may be met. This is determined in canon 1248 (which has already been quoted):

Canon 1248 does not grant the conference of bishops any authority in the matter of how to satisfy the obligation.

Furthermore, the reason that the Eastern Rites are constantly mentioned in this thread is because they are mentioned in this canon.

The Eastern Rites are an argument by analogy: If I could satisfy my obligation on November 1st by attending a Chaldean Memorial DL of Mar Mikha, why can I not satisfy my December 8th obligation by any Mass that occurs that Saturday?

I am asking for the reason behind the answer that USCCB gave you.

Thanks.

I cannot give you the answer because they didn’t give me a reason behind their answer. The OP asked if the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass (celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday) satisfied the obligation of December 8th. I presented this question to the USCCB twice, with follow-up questions regarding the readings and prayers proper to the feast. The answer that I was given I have posted throughout this thread.
’
To be quite frank with you, I have been put through the ringer by several posters. Perhaps if you do not believe me or have doubts about the competency of the USCCB regarding this manner, then you should contact them yourself. I asked this question in good faith because I wanted to give as accurate and correct a response as possible. I did not take into account the Eastern Rite because, frankly, this was never an issue with the OP. I don’t have an Eastern Rite church in my part of the country. I don’t claim competency as to how the Eastern Rite handles its holy days (if any) of obligation. I can only speak to the Latin Rite into which I was batptized.

Now, I ask you a question. Barring situations where employment is an issue, what is the problem with fulfilling the Holy Day obligation by assisting at Mass either at the vigil Mass Friday evening or on Saturday morning/early afternoon? Is it really too much of a sacrifice to give up a small part of Friday or early Saturday to satisfy the obligation? Having worked for the Texas Legislature, I have seen my share of folks trying to get through any loophole they can (especially when taxes are concerned). It is a shame that this kind of behavior has crept into our Church, as well.

 

[ioculator_dei]

Thanks benedictgal.

To answer your question: For me it’s not a matter of loopholes. I actually plan to attend mass on Friday evening, Saturday morning, Saturday evening and Sunday morning.

I agree that looking for loopholes can be rather shameful. However, I have always found it edifying to understand the law of the church, which I have discovered to be marvelously generous and merciful.

To me the decision of the USCCB seems to be restricting the law in an area where it does not seem to have authority. This seems to be making it harder to satisfy the obligation, which surely should not be the intention of the USCCB.

Thanks again!

 

[SenorBells]

Senor Bells, I am not confused. Perhaps you have not read all of the posts in this thread. Someone kept insisting that the anticipated Sunday vigil Mass (celebrated late afternoon/evening on Saturday) would fulfill the requirement for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. According that that person’s logic, you could attend Saturday evening’s vigil (even though it is already for Sunday) to fulfill the Holy Day obligation and then return to Mass on Sunday morning (to fulfill Sunday’s obligation). In fact, the person was very emphatic that the readings didn’t matter.

**Bottom line is that in order for the Holy Day to be fulfilled, the Mass must have the prayers and readings proper to the solemnity. **This comes straight from the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship.

You are wrong.

Worse, you seem to be unable to accept the fact that you are wrong. Your call to the USCCB sounds fairly embarrassing. Silly actually.

I can attend a Saturday morning (non-vigil) Maronite Holy Qurbono and satisfy the Mass requirement. No matter what spin you want to try, that’s a fact.

Nope, the readings will not be the same. Nor will they be the same on the following day (Sunday) when the Holy Qurbono will once again satisfy my Sunday Mass requirement.

 

[benedictgal]

You are wrong.

Worse, you seem to be unable to accept the fact that you are wrong. Your call to the USCCB sounds fairly embarrassing. Silly actually.

I can attend a Saturday morning (non-vigil) Maronite Holy Qurbono and satisfy the Mass requirement. No matter what spin you want to try, that’s a fact.

Nope, the readings will not be the same. Nor will they be the same on the following day (Sunday) when the Holy Qurbono will once again satisfy my Sunday Mass requirement.

Senor Bells, first of all, please do not take this insulting tone with me. I take the liturgy very seriously. I take what the norms and rubrics of the Church are very seriously. The OP asked in good faith and I answered in good faith. I am not too proud to go to the source myself when I need to find an answer to a question, even when I do not agree wholeheartedly with that source, especially when it comes to Sacred Music.

The USCCB, whether I like it or not, is the competent authority in this manner. I am not a canon lawyer and I will not presume to interpret canon law as I see fit so that I can find a loophole. I am not ashmed of contacting the USCCB because I respect their competency in this manner. Canon law is not some do-it-yourself thing that you can interpret and read as you wish.

As I have said in many posts in this thread, I worked in the Texas Legislature. I have learned how to read laws. I also am very well aware of the fact that not every conceivable thing can be covered in the law. The Texas Legislature leaves some rule-making authority to the various agencies and state departments so that they can exercise their competency in things.

Canon law is generous; however, it is not going to examine every iota of every thing. Look at the GIRM and Redemptionis Sacramentum. While there are references to Canon law in these documents, Canon law, for its part, respects the competencies of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and the various national bishops’ conferences.

I have tried to be respectful with the posts I have written. Please refrain from insults and demeaning characterizations. I am not ashamed for calling the USCCB. I am ashamed of the tone and manner that this thread has taken, simply because someone is trying to seek the answer from a competent authority. The AAA post is someone’s interpretation of canon law. Inasmuch as I respect the person who answered that particular thread, the AAA post does not speak with the authority of the Church. The USCCB, for all of its foibles, does. Please respect that.

 

[Pug]

I’m wondering if this all has to do with whatever it is that we see in the liturgy of the hours. Each Sunday has two evening prayers, one said on Saturday evening, and one said on Sunday evening. There is no Saturday evening prayer, so to speak. Maybe once 4 or 5 pm passes on Saturday, then according to the Church it is Sunday, no matter what. Like, maybe Sunday is a longer day of the week than the other days of the week?

Perhaps what they are saying is that it is no longer Dec 8 on Saturday evening. Then it would not be a matter of which readings. Rather, it would be a matter of which actual day it is.

Just trying to puzzle out whatever might be the logic of it all here.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m wondering if this all has to do with whatever it is that we see in the liturgy of the hours. Each Sunday has two evening prayers, one said on Saturday evening, and one said on Sunday evening. There is no Saturday evening prayer, so to speak. Maybe once 4 or 5 pm passes on Saturday, then according to the Church it is Sunday, no matter what. Like, maybe Sunday is a longer day of the week than the other days of the week?

Perhaps what they are saying is that it is no longer Dec 8 on Saturday evening. Then it would not be a matter of which readings. Rather, it would be a matter of which actual day it is.

Just trying to puzzle out whatever might be the logic of it all here.

Pug, you may have hit the nail on the head. You see, there is some inconsistencies with the way that Canon law is read. Sunday, according to Canon Law and the secular world, lasts from midnight Sunday to 11:59 (or midnight Monday) PM Sunday. However, the Church allows for the anticipated Sunday vigil to be celebrated on and/or after 4PM. This means that a “new” day has already begun in the eyes of the Church, since it is now, technically, Sunday that we are observing from 4PM onward. Therefore, when putting the two together, something is amiss.

Now, I use my experience in the Texas Legislature as a means of trying to “puzzle out” the logic, as you put it. The Texas Legislature has the authority to suspend the rules. While a debate may spill into past midnight (the following calendar day), the House of Representatives still considers itself to be on the same “legislative” day that it began at 10AM (the previous calendar day). Let’s say the debate began at 10AM Tuesday and it is now 3:00AM Wednesday (yes, it’s been known to happen, trust me, I’ve lived through many of those), irrespective of what the normal calendar says, the House calendar is still on the same legislative day.

This, perhaps, holds true when it comes to the liturgy. After 4PM Saturday (when the first anticipated Sunday Mass may be celebrated), the Church has alread entered into “Sunday”. If that were not the case and we strictly went by Canon law’s configuration of a day, then, conceivably, we could not celebrate “Sunday” yet because we are bound by the calendar day’s reckoning, as per Canon law. However, because we are now after 4PM on a Saturday, the anticipated Sunday Mass takes precedence, just as the anticipated vigil Mass on Friday evening for the Immaculate Conception now takes precedence over the Mass for Friday, of the First Week of Advent.

 

[Pug]

Now, I use my experience in the Texas Legislature as a means of trying to “puzzle out” the logic, as you put it. The Texas Legislature has the authority to suspend the rules. While a debate may spill into past midnight (the following calendar day), the House of Representatives still considers itself to be on the same “legislative” day that it began at 10AM (the previous calendar day). Let’s say the debate began at 10AM Tuesday and it is now 3:00AM Wednesday (yes, it’s been known to happen, trust me, I’ve lived through many of those), irrespective of what the normal calendar says, the House calendar is still on the same legislative day.

That is just the sort of thing that would happen, and seems apropos to the topic.

Maybe we can arrange for the government to be on last year’s budget even though it is next year. If only somehow that might make all our tax dollars go farther.