Immaculate Conception - Dec 8

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Digitonomy said:
It’s contrary to interpretation of canon law we have heard from reliable sources previously, such as AAA and Jimmy Akin.
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I’m sorry to be stupid, but which AAA post do you mean? It was because of the AAA that I became confused to begin with, because they said the 5pm Sat vigil does *not *count. In other words, the AAA response I read was consistent with the phone call, not inconsistent. BTW, I can’t operate the link for the “Mr. Plum” response you mentioned in a previous post, nor can I operate the link that I had originally made to AAA at the start of this all. It tells me I can’t access those pages for some reason. I’m not sure why. Perhaps CAF has pulled the threads temporarily? If so, maybe they will repost them with this whole mess sorted out.

I appreciate your link out to Akin’s response.
 
Verbum_Caro said:
Digitonomy,

I think you laid out very well the perceived conflict between the appropriate canon law and the USCCB answer as related to us be benedictgal. (Thank you for calling them, by the way!)

To add more fuel to the fire (a fire which I hope will bring us light at some point!), take a look at the the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law (CLSA), on canon 1248:
Digit, you bring up some excellent points too about obedience to the bishop(s). Is it possible that we have a situation here in which according to a plain reading of Canon Law we would say that one’s bare moral obligation is fulfilled attending any Catholic mass on Saturday evening or Sunday regardless of the readings BUT one also has an additional obligation of obedience to local authority on the timing and celebration of the mass. For instance, isn’t it under the competency of the bishop(s) to say whether or not a wedding or a funeral mass can be celebrated on such and such a day? Could the issue of Dec 8 be similar in the respect that you could fulfill your obligation by attending the anticipated Sunday Mass on Saturday and then Sunday Mass on Sunday but that it is not legitimate (in light of the your local bishop(s)) to do so?

Note!: I am just speculating here, I reserve my opinion on this matter for the moment.

Thoughts?
VC
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I realize that there is a lot of confusion, and I realize that everyone is pointing to Canon Law to refute my statements. However, the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship told me that the ancitipated Sunday vigil on Saturday later afternoon/evening does not fulfill the obligation for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception. This is fulfilled with the anticipatory Friday evening Mass and on Saturday morning/early afternoon.

Frankly, I think that we have become too lax in the way we view these Days of Obligation. Is it really too much to ask that we attend Mass on two consecutive days?

Inasmuch as I respect the AAA forum, Aiken does not speak with the authority of the Church. As I have said earlier, I do not necessarily agree with everything that the USCCB has issued, but, they are an authority and Aiken is not.
 
Digitonomy said:
I try to help when I can.
Now, back to bashing benedictgal!😉

The reasons so many are reluctant to accept what the USCCB told you by phone are

  1. *]It seems contrary to a plain reading of canon law
    *]It’s contrary to interpretation of canon law we have heard from reliable sources previously, such as AAA and Jimmy Akin.
    *]It appears to take away by regulation rights specifically granted by canon law
    *]It ignores a parallel issue mentioned in the specific canon, creating a paradoxical discrepancy between how Divine Liturgies are treated for Latins and how Holy Masses are treated.
    *]While the USCCB may be the national regulatory body, the answer cited no particular regulation as authority.

    Any way I look at it, the USCCB answer is inadequate. At best it is incomplete. It appears to be contradictory. And many suspect it is simply incorrect. Now if it were the head of the US Canon Law Society, or the Papal Nuncio who told you this it would be different from an unknown person answering the phone in Washington. I suspect you were loathe to challenge that person on his credentials, but what I had been hoping for since you mentioned it in post #69 is a more specific citation, preferably some old written regulation or document from the USCCB addressing this issue, or a canon law commentary.

    I believe we all have an obligation of obedience to our bishop, even when he misinterprets canon law. So it appears that in Laredo, you should refrain from using Saturday night mass to count for the Immaculate Conception. Likewise, unless some dispensation is granted, we are bound to follow the regulations and particular law for our country issued by the USCCB. However, we are not bound to follow the interpretation of canon law of an unknown person answering the phone at USCCB HQ. So unless the USCCB issues or has issued a regulation or interpretation that we can examine in detail, the interpretation of canon law is a matter for ourselves and those we trust. In my case, Jimmy Akin is near the top of the list, and on a parallel Christmas Eve question last year, he detailed a position at odds with the USCCB response you report.
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  1. Jimmy Akin does not have the same authority as the USCCB. Everyone seems to be throwing around canon law for the sake of quoting it. I do not want to denigrate Mr. Akin (I am sorry that I misspelled his name in an earlier thread), nor do I want to denigrate anyone else; however, I return to my legislative example, the Texas Legislature passes the Vernon Texas Codes of Civil and Criminal Statutes. These statutes cannot conceivably cover every single thing. Rule-making authority is given to the various state agencies and departments with respect to their competencies. The GIRM is not canon law; nor is Redemptionis Sacramentum. However, we are bound to them.

    Luckily, my parish is scheduling Masses for both Friday evening and Saturday morning. I hope that this will also hold true for all of your parishes as well. Now, I’m preparing for a business trip. I just wanted to defend myself since I’ve been bashed and hashed throughout this thread. However, I bear my detractors no ill will. God bless all of you.
 
Benedictgal,

Hopefully you don’t count me among your detractors. 👍 My post regarding the commentary from the Canon Law Society of America was to contribute additional data, not to attack you or your conclusions! I don’t have a well formed opinion on the matter and, like you, it really won’t effect me personally either way, since I welcome the opportunity to go the Saturday and Sunday Mass.

Have a safe trip!
VC
 
Canon 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.
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In all fairness to BenedictGal and others …

And with this disclaimer I am not a Canon Lawyer …

We have two Holy Days of Obligation back to back … Canon 1248 is a canon that discusses the fulfilment of obligatory days … If the Holy day is any Sunday, you may fulfil the day by participating on the day itself or the evening of the preceding day…

for other Holy Days of Obligation [not Sundays and ones not abrogated] the same is true …

Now canon law counts the day as 24 hours from midnight to midnight … which causes an overlap when you allow fulfillment of obligations the evening before …

So what I believe the interpretation of the UCCB [in answering BenedictGal’s question] is the extension of the Immaculate Conception is for the Friday Vigil … Saturday is commonly celebrated [one might say universally so in the US] as a Vigil for Sunday … in the Liturgy of the Hours - Saturday Evening does not exist; it is Sunday Evening Number 1 …

Ergo, the Immaculate Conception obligation can be met anytime from the Vigil of Evening through Saturday and before the begining of the Sunday Celebration [Saturday Evening Vigil]…

From a logical perspective and IMHO…if Saturday was Christmas Day, we would not be having this discussion … not one person would be saying that they would go to Mass on Saturday evening [the Vigil for Sunday December 26] and then return for Sunday morning [Sunday december 26] and say thay had fulfilled their Christmas obligation and their Sunday obligation [someone refered to this as a Two for Two???] by hearing the Sunday December 26th readings … and not one person would jump to the defense of a person who made that argument … thus the same criteria should apply

And I agree witht he posters who think the Bishops have not done th faithful an favors by limiting the number of Holy Days or abrogating the obligation when some of them fall on Mondays as illutrated even some priests [though I find that very odd] do not seem to understand the obligaitons …
 
jmcrae said:
Friday abstinence from meat (Jimmy Akin says it is not required; my Bishop says it is required for all except those for whom it would be medically dangerous or seriously inconvenient; these have the option of substituting a different penance but there is nobody, having reached their 14th birthday, who should be ignoring the day of penance altogether - and persons younger than 14 should also be receiving training on Friday penance, as well, according to their ability to understand.)
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You are in Canada. There may be different requirements. Here in the USA, outside of Lent, abstinence on Fridays is not required.
 
benedictgal said:
Frankly, I think that we have become too lax in the way we view these Days of Obligation. Is it really too much to ask that we attend Mass on two consecutive days?
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That’s not the issue for most people - the issue would be WHICH two consecutive days. I think most of us accept that you can’t have one single Mass count for both Sunday and the IC HDO.

And there’s a valid point in that while most of us could attend Saturday vigil and a Sunday Mass, significantly fewer could attend a Friday vigil or Saturday daytime Mass.

IMHO it’s unhelpful to have any amount of Holy Days if people can’t attend any of 'em due to necessary work obligations or lack of convenient Mass times!

The solution is either more vigil or pre-work hours Masses, or change the rules. Easier option, of course, being to switch the obligation to Sunday which occurs in many cases.
 
LilyM said:
That’s not the issue for most people - the issue would be WHICH two consecutive days. I think most of us accept that you can’t have one single Mass count for both Sunday and the IC HDO.

And there’s a valid point in that while most of us could attend Saturday vigil and a Sunday Mass, significantly fewer could attend a Friday vigil or Saturday daytime Mass.

IMHO it’s unhelpful to have any amount of Holy Days if people can’t attend any of 'em due to necessary work obligations or lack of convenient Mass times!

The solution is either more vigil or pre-work hours Masses, or change the rules. Easier option, of course, being to switch the obligation to Sunday which occurs in many cases.
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I agree with you. More people would probably be able to attend Mass on Saturday evening and Sunday morning than on Friday evening or Saturday morning and then Sunday morning.
 
I think that there is a distinction between anticipated masses and vigil masses that we are missing here:

An anticipated mass is, I believe, the mass of a certain day said before that day. A mass, with its particular variable parts, said on the day to which these variable parts are proper cannot be an anticipated mass.

A vigil mass is a particular mass said the evening before the day to which it is a watch. In effect a vigil mass prepares for the day itself (but it is not the day). Christmas Eve is not Christmas. Halloween is not All Saint’s. In the prayers said by the priest in the Easter Vigil the day on which the Easter Vigils occurs is never called Easter, nor are the sacraments called Easter Sacraments. However, the prayers said on Easter Day refer to the day as the day of Easter Joy and to the sacraments as Easter Sacraments.

Now, again according to canon 1248, the only reason why an anticipated mass or a vigil mass may satisfy a holy day of obligation is because it occurs “in the evening of the preceding day.” If the evening of the preceding day before a solemnity is automatically considered the day itself then there would be no need for a vigil or for an anticipated mass (the entire question of this thread would be moot).

The General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar do indeed state that the observance of a solemnity begins with Evening Prayer I:
  1. Solemnities are counted as the principal days in the calendar and their observance begins with evening prayer I of the preceding day. Some also have their own vigil Mass for use when Mass is celebrated in the evening of the preceding day. The celebration of Easter and Christmas, the two greatest solemnities, continues for eight days, with each octave governed by its own rules.
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It is important to note, however, that the distinction of day is still kept. If Sundays began on Evening Prayer 1 then the evening of the preceding day would be Friday evening. Does anyone believe that a Sunday obligation can be satisfied by any mass said on Friday after 4:00 PM? Even if it has the Sunday readings?

Again, an anticipated mass satisfies the obligation because of the time in which it occurs; not because it is anticipating Sunday. The anticipated mass is not proper to Saturday. I suspect the reason why the Sunday Mass is anticipated is so that those who choose to fulfill their obligation on the preceding evening can partake of the Sunday Liturgy.

I do not think that Saturday becomes a “legal” Sunday even if Sunday is “observed” on Saturday. If it was a “legal” Sunday (like the continuing of a session or meeting in parliamentary procedure), then there would be no need for an anticipated mass.

Also if Saturday Evening was legally Sunday the anticipated mass would count toward the two (and sometime three) masses a priest is permitted to celebrate on Sunday.

It therefore seems that any mass (for it could be either Sunday or Immaculate Conception) celebrated after 4:00 PM could satisfy the obligation for the Second Sunday of Advent or the Immaculate Conception (of course one mass cannot do both).
 
For those who didn’t notice, a new post has appeared in the AAA (I still can’t get the old links to work, so maybe those posts are permanently gone). This new post supports the position that a person can go to the 5pm mass on Saturday evening to fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation this year (and then go to some other mass for the Second Sunday of Advent obligation). Please see the link for details.

Since that is what I believed in the first place, that’s nice, but now I honestly feel like I don’t know anything for sure. I hate feeling unsure about something that involves mortal sin.
 
Pug said:
Since that is what I believed in the first place, that’s nice, but now I honestly feel like I don’t know anything for sure. I hate feeling unsure about something that involves mortal sin.
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Don’t be over-scrupulous. Mortal sin requires knowing intent. That’s completely absent in this scenario. In fact, your intent is pretty clear, and it’s the opposite of mortal sin.
 
ddeluna said:
Don’t be over-scrupulous. Mortal sin requires knowing intent. That’s completely absent in this scenario. In fact, your intent is pretty clear, and it’s the opposite of mortal sin.
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Thanks ddeluna. You’re right, I tend to the scrupulous side. I’ll try to keep your reminder in mind. 🙂

In heaven, our minds will at last be balanced. Come Lord Jesus!
 
Pug said:
For those who didn’t notice, a new post has appeared in the AAA (I still can’t get the old links to work, so maybe those posts are permanently gone). This new post supports the position that a person can go to the 5pm mass on Saturday evening to fulfill the Immaculate Conception obligation this year (and then go to some other mass for the Second Sunday of Advent obligation). Please see the link for details.

Since that is what I believed in the first place, that’s nice, but now I honestly feel like I don’t know anything for sure. I hate feeling unsure about something that involves mortal sin.
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That is correct.

Your choices are 2 of the following (choose one from each category, you must attend 2 Masses):

Immaculate Conception:
  1. Attend Catholic rite Mass after 4PM on Dec. 7th
  2. Attend Catholic rite Mass on Dec. 8th.
Sunday:
  1. Attend Catholic rite Mass after 4PM on Dec. 8th
  2. Attend Catholic rite Mass on Dec. 9th.
 
Pug said:
Thanks ddeluna. You’re right, I tend to the scrupulous side. I’ll try to keep your reminder in mind. 🙂

In heaven, our minds will at last be balanced. Come Lord Jesus!
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“Worry is like a rocking chair. It gives us something to do but doesn’t get us anywhere” Anonymous
 
Sure said:
That is correct.

Your choices are 2 of the following (choose one from each category, you must attend 2 Masses):

Immaculate Conception:
  1. Attend Catholic rite Mass after 4PM on Dec. 7th
  2. Attend Catholic rite Mass on Dec. 8th.
Sunday:
  1. Attend Catholic rite Mass after 4PM on Dec. 8th
  2. Attend Catholic rite Mass on Dec. 9th.
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This is the most straightforward explanation! :tiphat:
 
I have read the new AAA post. Inasmuch as I am appreciative of Michelle Arnold’s revised answer, I still think that it is wrong. It does not correspond to the answer that the USCCB gave me.

My concern is that, while CA does an excellent job in helping out with apologetics, they are not the canonical nor the ecclesiastical voice of authority. For all of its faults and foibles, the USCCB is the voice here. As I have indicated earlier, my posts never took the Eastern Rite into consideration because, in my case, we don’t have an Eastern Rite diocese in my area.

We can quote and post canon law, but, none of us is in the position of interpreting it.

Over the last 40 years, I fear that we have become too lax in our regard for Holy Days of Obligation. We seem to find every excuse under the sun to not satisfy our obligation, even when an anticipated vigil Mass is offered the night before. We can make time for athletic events, movies, concerts, dates and shopping. We just can’t seem to make the time, at least one additional hour, a week. Mind you, there’s nothing wrong with the events I just mentioned. However, when they consume our time more than God, then there are some serious problems.
 
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