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benedictgal
Guest
Yes. Remember, it must start before 4PM.So a mass that starts at 3:45 and ends at 4:45 would necessarily be an Immaculate Conception mass?
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
The liturgical calendar can be tricky sometimes.Thank you Brother Rich and PuzzleAnnie.
I know that every Sunday is a Holy Day of Obligation, I just wanted to make sure the Vigil Mass on Saturday fulfilled the obligation if the said day fell on Sunday. My confusion was that I mistakenly thought the First Day of Advent was a Holy Day of Obligation (I did not know it always is on a Sunday)
I think Iām all cleared up now.
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ClaireS
Guest
I question this. If you went to a 5pm mass on Saturday, because you were unable to get to the earlier masses, the readings would be for Sunday but I think it fullfils your holy day mass obligation if you also attend mass on Sunday for your Sunday obligation. The mass was attended ON the holy day. In a similar way, a Saturday evening wedding mass fulfills the Sunday obligation even though the readings are not the Sunday readings.
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Phemie
Guest
Our ORDO says that a wedding Mass doesnāt fulfill the Sunday obligation ā even if celebrated at 7pm on Saturday.
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benedictgal
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It can if the Sunday readings are used. When I used to help do weddings at our Cathedral, the oringinal rector told the couples that if they were getting married from the anticipated Sunday Mass (5:30PM Saturday) on, then they would need to use the Sunday readings. Plus, they also had to take up a collection, since they were fulfilling their Sunday obligation.
Believe it or not, the couples didnāt mind. The only ones who had a serious problem were the ones who decided to get married during Advent. They were upset because the āChristmas decorationsā werenāt up and they werenāt allowed to put up poinsettias. We had to gently explain to them that, despite what Macyās and Wal-Mart say, itās not Christmas yet. The brides, however, thought that the rose-colored vestments were most fetching for the wedding pictures.
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Phemie
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What, they all got married on Gaudete Sunday??It can if the Sunday readings are used. When I used to help do weddings at our Cathedral, the oringinal rector told the couples that if they were getting married from the anticipated Sunday Mass (5:30PM Saturday) on, then they would need to use the Sunday readings. Plus, they also had to take up a collection, since they were fulfilling their Sunday obligation.
**Smart rector. I guess I should have said that the Nuptial Mass doesnāt fulfill your Sunday obligation.
**
Believe it or not, the couples didnāt mind. The only ones who had a serious problem were the ones who decided to get married during Advent. They were upset because the āChristmas decorationsā werenāt up and they werenāt allowed to put up poinsettias. We had to gently explain to them that, despite what Macyās and Wal-Mart say, itās not Christmas yet. The brides, however, thought that the rose-colored vestments were most fetching for the wedding pictures.
We have two couples getting married a few days before Christmas this year ā a first since Iāve started working here. One didnāt even want to get married in church, it had been planned as a Dominican Republic wedding but fiancĆ© has to go work out of town so theyāre now using the Church, and I use that term on purpose, and āsimplicity of decorationsā is not a term that this bride understands. Pastor of course needs a backbone transplant.
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benedictgal
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Iām not at liberty to donate my PV (parochial vicarās) backbone, as he was the first rector of our Cathedral. Plus, we need him down here. Your pastor does need to gently explain that if one chooses to get married during a penitentnial season, the decorations need to be subdued.
Oh, by the way, when he was at the Cathedral, my PV used to have several weddings a weekend, as the cathedral is the prettiest and oldest church in town. He managed to celebrate roughly 90% of the Nuptial Masses himself. On one occasion, we had seven weddings in one weekend, on top of the parishās weekend Mass schedule. He celebrated each Mass himself.
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ClaireS
Guest
What is ORDO?
I got this information from the EWTN Ask the Experts forum a couple years ago. I remembered it because when my brother got married on a Saturday in Advent 40 years ago, we had to go to the 5pm mass (but couldnāt receive communion) and then to the wedding mass at 7pm.
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Phemie
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The ORDO is the Liturgical Calendar published by the Conference of Bishops. Itās a book you usually find in the sacristy, telling you what the vestment colours, readings, special feasts, church anniversaries etc are for each day of the liturgical year.
It has a lot of pastoral notes in it.
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benedictgal
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The Paulists publish the ORDO. Because we are in Texas, we have ours published for our 14 dioceses and it includes Oklahoma, as well.
Now, what gets tricky is the fact that my diocese is on the Texas-Mexican border. In Mexico, the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a Holy Day of Obligation. Because we have many folks from Mexico attending our Masses and because of the cultural ties, the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe is heavily celebrated here, as I would suppose in San Antonio and other parts of the state. As an added caveat, we use the Mexican Roman Missal, Lectionary and Book of the Gospels for the Spanish masses.
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JDHallKY
Guest
I think there are some things that require clarification.
Regarding the celebration: A Mass celebrated on Saturday evening may be either a Mass celebrated for the Immaculate Conception (which is a Solemnity, the celebration of which runs until midnight), or a vigil Mass for Sunday. This is at the discretion of the celebrant.
**Regarding our obligation: **It doesnāt matter which readings are used. Going on Friday evening after 4:00 or anytime on Saturday (whether it is a Mass celebrating the Solemnity or a vigil Mass for Sunday) satisfies our obligation to attend Mass on that day. Attending a Mass on Saturday evening after 4:00 (celebrating either day) or anytime on Sunday satisfies our obligation for Sunday. Satisfying our obligation to assist at Mass does not depend on which readings are used.
The only caveat is that we must attend TWO Masses, one that qualifies for each. Technically, attending a Sunday Vigil and a Sunday morning Mass would meet that requirement even though you heard the same readings twice. Of course, I would think you would want to avoid that, but as far as canon law goes, that satisfies the precept completely.
Regarding the celebration: A Mass celebrated on Saturday evening may be either a Mass celebrated for the Immaculate Conception (which is a Solemnity, the celebration of which runs until midnight), or a vigil Mass for Sunday. This is at the discretion of the celebrant.
**Regarding our obligation: **It doesnāt matter which readings are used. Going on Friday evening after 4:00 or anytime on Saturday (whether it is a Mass celebrating the Solemnity or a vigil Mass for Sunday) satisfies our obligation to attend Mass on that day. Attending a Mass on Saturday evening after 4:00 (celebrating either day) or anytime on Sunday satisfies our obligation for Sunday. Satisfying our obligation to assist at Mass does not depend on which readings are used.
The only caveat is that we must attend TWO Masses, one that qualifies for each. Technically, attending a Sunday Vigil and a Sunday morning Mass would meet that requirement even though you heard the same readings twice. Of course, I would think you would want to avoid that, but as far as canon law goes, that satisfies the precept completely.
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Karl_M
Guest
Yes it is, but not because itās the first Sunday of Advent.
Itās a Holy Day of Obligation because itās Sunday.
And to the OP, yes, attending a Saturday evening Mass (after 4pm-not a wedding or funeral, etc) does indeed fulfill the Sunday obligation.
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benedictgal
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Now, I think that you need to show documented proof for the first instance. Our director of Divine Worship (for the diocese) was very clear that the Saturday vigil on the 8th of December did not satisfy both obligations. It would if you had documentation to substantiate your claim on the first item.
Even before the director made that pronouncement, we had always understood that you canāt get a two-for-one deal on situations like this, as the Holy Day of Obligation is separate from the Sunday, unless, both the Holy Day and the Day of Obligation fall on Sunday, as in the case where the Feast of the Assumption and the Feast of All Saints fall on a Sunday. When the feast of the Immaculate Conception falls on Sunday, the liturgical season of Advent takes precedent and the feast is translated to Monday.
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JDHallKY
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Read the last paragraph of my post again. There is no two-for-one deal. You have to go to Mass on Saturday (or Friday night) and on Sunday (or Saturday night). My point was that if you donāt go to Mass on Friday night or during the day on Saturday, but go to a vigil Mass on Saturday evening, that fulfills your Immaculate Conception obligation, even though the Sunday readings are used. You still have to fulfill your Sunday obligation by assisting at another Mass either later on Saturday evening or on Sunday.
Iām sorry for the confusion.
Iām not sure if you were also questioning whether the celebrant really has a choice on which Mass to celebrate on Saturday evening, Iām not sure I can provide specific documentation. A Sunday of Advent takes precedence over any Solemnity, but thatās not what weāre talking about here. Saturday is the Solemnity, not Sunday. The celebration of the Solemnity runs throughout the day. So, on Saturday evening, a priest could say a Mass for the Immaculate Conception or a vigil Mass for Sunday. Iām quite sure thatās true, and I know a very orthodox priest from a very conservative order who is celebrating an Immaculate Conception Mass at 5:00 on Saturday.
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benedictgal
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Our diocesan director of Divine Worship (a priest) specifically stated that Masses occuring on or after the anticipated Sunday Vigil Mass (Saturday evening) are for the second Sunday of Advent. That is why he told us that we will fulfill our obligation either Friday evening or Saturday morning or early afternoon. He was very specific. I realize that quoting from the Cathedral bulletin doesnāt necessarily make it liturgical law, but, he was very clear about it in writing and in person.
Unfortunately, Father didnāt get it 100% right.
The obligations can be satisfied in any of the following ways:
- Saturday morning or early afternoon Mass, then Saturday anticipated Mass; or
- Saturday anticipated Mass and Sunday Mass on Sunday; or
- Saturday daytime Mass and Sunday daytime Mass.
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Pug
Guest
Next Saturday is Dec 8, a Holy Day of Obligation. I had previously thought that any mass on the day of Dec 8 would meet the obligation for that holy day, but the AAA says otherwise. They seem to be saying that one cannot attend the 5 pm mass on Sat evening (to count for Immaculate Conception) and then attend the 11 am mass on Sunday (to count for the regular Sunday obligation for the second Sunday of Advent). Here is the CIC that I had thought meant this would work:
Iām looking into finding some parish that does have a mass on Friday evening, so I can meet the Immaculate Conception obligation, but things would be much easier if I could go at 5pm on Sat and have it count as Dec 8 obligation.
Oh, and yes, Dec 8 is not abrogated this year in my diocese, of that Iām sure. I already checked that out. My curiosity had been peaked because our parish only has one mass for it and we usually have 4, so I wondered what was up with that.
Any thoughts on that Canon?
Iām having this trouble because I work on Saturday, and we only have two masses on Saturday, the usual vigil mass for Sunday and the usual daily mass on Saturday morning. We are not offered a mass on Friday evening.
Iām looking into finding some parish that does have a mass on Friday evening, so I can meet the Immaculate Conception obligation, but things would be much easier if I could go at 5pm on Sat and have it count as Dec 8 obligation.
Oh, and yes, Dec 8 is not abrogated this year in my diocese, of that Iām sure. I already checked that out. My curiosity had been peaked because our parish only has one mass for it and we usually have 4, so I wondered what was up with that.
Any thoughts on that Canon?
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DJgang
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warning: new Catholic posting
I would assume the liturgy is different.
I would assume the liturgy is different.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Saturday Vigil Mass is for Sunday.
Saturday, Dec 8th is the feast of the Immaculate Conception, so Mass is for that day, prior to Saturday Evening. Check with your church, there is probably a Friday Vigil Mass for the Immaculate Conception.
My parish has a Friday evening Mass, which I will attend.
Jim
Saturday, Dec 8th is the feast of the Immaculate Conception, so Mass is for that day, prior to Saturday Evening. Check with your church, there is probably a Friday Vigil Mass for the Immaculate Conception.
My parish has a Friday evening Mass, which I will attend.
Jim
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Br.Rich_SFO
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My opinion here is go to Maqss Saturday evening and then again Sunday morning. As a personal pius act. Since you must work and are unable to attend because of this and there are no Holy Day Vigil Masses available you donāt have an obligation for the Holy day. The Feast of the Immaculate Conception like a few other Holy Day Feasts is never moved or abrogated no matter what day it falls on.
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