Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[Serap]

Over the last 40 years, very gradually, women who model and act have allowed themselves to portray degrading and immoral characters.

In the 1960s, the nuns required all girls to wear a skirt that covered the knee. Our parents were to be respected. Our behavior needed to be polite and courteous. We were taught these things, and even as a kid, I was pleased by the way people behaved. We were told to stay away from the kids who stole or acted contrary to this. We were not taught to bother them. The same with the occasional adult ‘bad apple’ in our neighborhood.

I politely told my attractive relative that her clothes were a bit inappropriate. She promptly replied, “But all my friends dress like this.”

In the 1960s, the miniskirt was a scandal, but gradually, we, meaning all Christians, were told that women needed to be free and that anyone could dress however they wanted. Some Hippies got naked at Woodstock.

I can’t buy most magazines because of their scandalous covers and contents. At first, they called it art. Today, I can think of no celebrity that can properly be called glamorous because most have allowed themselves to be exploited and do so many immodest things. There was a time when many celebrities, men and women, could be admired for their appearance and for the character they displayed on screen and in public. They could legitimately be regarded as role models.

Today, we have the exact opposite, especially for Christians. Why a young woman would play a doctor who picks up a man for anonymous sex and who drinks liquor straight out of the bottle is beyond me. I saw her recently on a magazine cover and I thought: She’s nice looking but what does she stand for? Anything?

We have anti-role models today and we need to point that out to our kids and young people we know. A few adults need to hear that too. I don’t admire 99% of the celebrities out there. Britney should perform in clothes, not stripper outfits. Lady Gaga trashes all boundaries of good taste. And that’s another thing that’s been lost. How can we put most comedy today in the good taste category? The answer? We can’t. Not with so many comedians saying *uck every 5 seconds.

Let’s call it what it is: sick, disgusting, grossly immodest, crude and in Miss Gaga’s case, freakish.

The moment we become indifferent to any of this, we become more likely to actually accept some of it or even start to enjoy it. No can do, my brothers and sisters. No can do.

God bless,
Ed

I am not degrading myself??? I am wearing v-neck tops, skirts above the knee, pants, jeans, fitted clothing. I am not immodest!

My point is that I AM modest and compared to those Hollywood actors, I am covered up to the nines.

I am being told by two women that my clothing is immodest. Then why was I allowed in the VATICAN wearing my “immodest” clothing???

 

[Shin]

Whether or not you’re allowed into the Vatican is not a standard of whether or not you’re wearing modest clothing.

 

[mommamaree]

I am not degrading myself??? I am wearing v-neck tops, skirts above the knee, pants, jeans, fitted clothing. I am not immodest!

My point is that I AM modest and compared to those Hollywood actors, I am covered up to the nines.

I am being told by two women that my clothing is immodest. Then why was I allowed in the VATICAN wearing my “immodest” clothing???

Serap,
I think Ed was referring to the degrading roles portrayed by actresses and immodest attire/poses by models over the last 60 years. He wasn’t saying that you were degrading yourself. I know you feel really on the defensive because it appears to you that people are addressing you specifically. That troubles me because I have sensed that you are a kind-hearted woman, and a good wife and mother. I wouldn’t want you to feel attacked. But my impression of lil_flower_luv, Ed, and Shin and their posting is different from your perception. I have been reading it as they are offering food for thought, both OT and NT writings, and the writings of the saints. They offer it as a counterpoint to a secular mentality of “anything goes” which has infected the Christian culture. I see them doing it out of love and a desire for the best for other other Christians. We may still end up disagreeing a bit on the specifics of modest dress (for example, I see no problem with bare calves or lower arms) but that is alright. None of them has claimed to make the rules on modesty, or any virtue, but they all have expressed a sincere desire to participate in the discussion in a way that allows them to share what has guided them. I really don’t think you or any person here should take their words as a personal attack. IMO, we all have far too many reasons to think highly of you, and of the other frequent posters to this thread.

 

[Serap]

Serap,
I think Ed was referring to the degrading roles portrayed by actresses and immodest attire/poses by models over the last 60 years. He wasn’t saying that you were degrading yourself. I know you feel really on the defensive because it appears to you that people are addressing you specifically. That troubles me because I have sensed that you are a kind-hearted woman, and a good wife and mother. I wouldn’t want you to feel attacked. But my impression of lil_flower_luv, Ed, and Shin and their posting is different from your perception. I have been reading it as they are offering food for thought, both OT and NT writings, and the writings of the saints. They offer it as a counterpoint to a secular mentality of “anything goes” which has infected the Christian culture. I see them doing it out of love and a desire for the best for other other Christians. We may still end up disagreeing a bit on the specifics of modest dress (for example, I see no problem with bare calves or lower arms) but that is alright. None of them has claimed to make the rules on modesty, or any virtue, but they all have expressed a sincere desire to participate in the discussion in a way that allows them to share what has guided them. I really don’t think you or any person here should take their words as a personal attack. IMO, we all have far too many reasons to think highly of you, and of the other frequent posters to this thread.

thanks.

I grew up with men hoping I was “easy” b/c I am an attractive woman. This hits hurtful nerves for me b/c I was modest and it didn’t matter what I wore, men just hoped to have sex with me it seemed. I get defensive b/c I feel like people are inadvertantly saying it was my fault that men treated me that way. I was always a good girl.

When I was in my early 20’s, I kid you not, I used to get stopped on the street and told that I was beautiful. Not that it matters, but it always made me feel really uncomfortable. I wore black most of the time to try and blend in, but my blond hair always made me stand out.

 

[Serap]

For what it’s worth, I found this on the web:

*Although Catholics are expected to dress modestly[8], there have never been any “official” guidelines issued by the Catholic Church. But, from time to time the Church hierarchy, and even some popes, have given opinions on various matters; although these “guidelines” are not binding on Catholics, many tradition-minded Catholics find them persuasive.[9] Pope Pius XII stated that women should cover their upper arms and shoulders, that their skirts should cover at least as far as the knee, and the neckline should not reveal anything.[10] Another example is Giuseppe Cardinal Siri of Genoa, who stated that trousers were unacceptable dress for women.[11] Many tradition-minded Catholics have attempted to further expand on this latter standard.[12]

Some Catholics have attempted to form cohesive theories of modesty. Sometimes this is from a sociological perspective,[10] while at other times it takes a more systematic, Thomistic approach, combined with the writings of the Church Fathers.[13] Approaches arguing primarily from traditional practices and traditional authorities, such as the saints, can also be found.[14]

The Church also expects men to dress modestly, but the demands are not as strict for them as for women; this is largely because men are often thought to be more inherently susceptible to sexual thoughts*

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Serap, you ARE a good girl! We LOVE you! :hug1:

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Signs at Vatican and St. Peter’s Basilica:

colleenhammond.com/catholics/please-help-me-find-this-modesty-sign-for-churches/



(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Serap]

They let me in the Vatican, so my skirt and top must have been considered modest I guess.

 

[Prayerfully]

Modesty does not change over time. Modesty has absolute standards that never change. Just like other aspects of moral truth.

Some material for thought to show how modesty is part of the Faith:

“Fashions will much offend Our Lord. People who serve God should not follow fashions. The Church has no fashions. Our Lord is always the same.”

Bl. Jacinta of Fatima

I quote saints, it generally takes longer than 20 years to canonize. But the saints say the same thing from 100 A.D. to 1000 A.D. to today.

Modesty does not change.

They also say that few people go to Heaven. Repeating the scriptures repeated admonishment. That Christians must be different from people of the world.

‘But how can you know anything of the impression made on others? Who can assure you that others do not draw therefrom incentives to evil? You do not know the depths of human frailty. . . Oh, how truly was it said that if some Christian women could only suspect the temptations and falls they cause in others with modes of dress and familiarity in behavior, which they unthinkingly consider as of no importance, they would be shocked by the responsibility which is theirs.’

Pope Pius XII

‘The good of our soul is more important than that of our body; and we have to prefer the spiritual welfare of our neighbor to our bodily comforts. . . If a certain kind of dress constitutes a grave and proximate occasion of sin, and endangers the salvation of your soul and others, it is your duty to give it up.’

Pope Pius XII

‘What is it all for? If they only knew what eternity is.’

Bl. Jacinta Marto of Fatima, age 9, on seeing immodest and fashionably dressed women

‘Let parents keep their daughters away from public gymnastic games and contests; but if their daughters are compelled to attend such exhibitions, let them see that they are fully and modestly dressed. Let them never permit their daughters to appear in immodest dress.’

Decree of the Congregation of the Council (by the mandate of Pope Pius XI), 1930 A.D.

Signs on the doors of San Giovanni Rotondo:

“The Church is the house of God. It is forbidden for men to enter with bare arms or in shorts. It is forbidden for women to enter in trousers, without a veil on their head, in short clothing, low necklines, sleeveless or immodest dresses.”

“By Padre Pio’s explicit wish, women must enter the confessional wearing skirts AT LEAST 8 INCHES BELOW THE KNEE. It is forbidden to borrow longer dresses in church and to wear them to confession.”

‘A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.’

The Cardinal Vicar of Pius XI

One cannot sufficiently deplore the blindness of so many women of every age and condition; made foolish by desire to please, they do not see to what a degree the indecency of their clothing shocks every honest man, and offends God.

Most of them would formerly have blushed for those outfits as for a grave fault against Christian modesty; now it does not suffice for them to exhibit them on the public thoroughfares; they do not fear to cross the threshold of the churches, to assist at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and even to bear the seducing food of shameful passions to the Eucharistic Table where one receives the Heavenly Author of purity.

And we speak not of these exotic and barbarous dances recently imported into fashionable circles, one more shocking than the other; one cannot imagine anything more suitable for banishing all the remains of modesty.

Pope Benedict XV

‘We must practice modesty, not only in our looks, but also in our whole deportment, and particularly in our dress, our walk, our conversation, and all similar actions.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

'You carry your snare everywhere and spread your nets in all places. You allege that you never invited others to sin. You did not, indeed, by your words, but you have done so by your dress and your deportment. . . When you have made another sin in his heart, how can you be innocent? Tell me, whom does this world condemn? Whom do judges punish? Those who drink poison or those who prepare it and administer the fatal potion?

You have prepared the abominable cup, you have given the death dealing drink, and you are more criminal than are those who poison the body; you murder not the body but the soul.

And it is not to enemies you do this, nor are you urged on by any imaginary necessity, nor provoked by injury, but out of foolish vanity and pride.’

St. John Chrysostom, Father and Doctor of the Church

So you “called out” my suggestion of St Gianna Beretta Molla as a role model for women’s modesty and clothing guidelines, stating “saints can be in error”, but here you are quoting saints from older centuries left and right…and instead of going by the Vatican guidelines that are clearly illustrated in those signs showing appropriate wear IN CHURCH (placed outside the Churches in the Vatician) you quote apparitions to back up your claims?

Really???

 

[John_of_Woking]

On this subject I think make-up is a waste of time and money as well. I am not saying it is sinful to wear make up and in moderation I suppose it is fine but when it crosses the line and becomes vanity then it can quickly spiral into an emotional crutch. Some people will not even leave the house without make up on…

The whole Beauty industry that has mushroomed recently it is frankly over the top. I always find it surreal. This is a world mired in poverty and yet people don’t blink spending vast sums of money on clothes, shoes and cosmetics.

 

[Prayerfully]

Didn’t Mother Angelica mention (with her tongue in cheek humor) that for some women, wearing make-up is an act of charity towards others?

 

[Prayerfully]

On this subject I think make-up is a waste of time and money as well. I am not saying it is sinful to wear make up and in moderation I suppose it is fine but when it crosses the line and becomes vanity then it can quickly spiral into an emotional crutch. Some people will not even leave the house without make up on…

The whole Beauty industry that has mushroomed recently it is frankly over the top. I always find it surreal. This is a world mired in poverty and yet people don’t blink spending vast sums of money on clothes, shoes and cosmetics.

Didn’t Mother Angelica mention (with her tongue in cheek humor) that for some women, wearing make-up is an act of charity towards others?

 

[C_S_P_B]

A dress code at a specific location does not define modesty. This is a situational standard for respectful dress at that locale. Certain restaraunts have dress codes but no one applies that to every other imaginable aspect of life.

What should a woman wear to the beach? The exact same thing as she should wear to the Vatican? Maybe women should be banned from beaches since no appropriate dress is deemed modest. Of course I am being absurd to point out absurdity.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Some additional points:

(1) men as well as women can be ogled at. This is especially the case if they happen to have some noteworthy attribute. It’s unfortunate (at times), but there are also times when a person might be glad he’s getting the attention. It’s tough to generalize here. (I DO think women are MUCH better at giving men an unobtrusive once-over; men are much more obvious).

(2) men as well as women have modesty choices to make. Unfortunately, the range of male apparel has always been pretty limited, so it reduces the subtlety a good deal: it’s probably easier for men to know when they’re dressing immodestly.

(3) women as well as men like to flirt, even if married; there’s a nudge of positive self-esteem this generates (“I still got it!”). Even though this is the Catholic Answers board, I think a good deal of this kind of stuff is harmless. (I’d be apprehensive of a woman or man who INTENTIONALLY sought to flirt, rather than have it happen casually and spontaneously). I mean, at some point, we all take some pride in having some measure of sexual appeal.

(4) It’s clear (e.g., cleavage) that women can dictate the terms of an interaction. And that when men TRY to be sexually appealing, they just as often get laughs as real attention.

Re: Point 3 : Not harmless. Nowadays I genuinely hate it when a women flirts with me because I know I am weak and suffer from concupiscence. I pray every day for the Holy virtue of poverty and genuinely don’t want ‘sex appeal’ . I honestly just want to get to Heaven and be with My Lord for all eternity and lust is a stumbling block for many (not least me). I am not saying that I have conquered vanity but I earnestly pray to.

I work with a whole team of women and it does get tiresome the way the majority ogle after men (even if they think its a harmless joke).
Please don’t think I am playing holier than thou because I am not and have sinned many times…in fact several years ago I was a womanising idiot.

 

[John_of_Woking]

Didn’t Mother Angelica mention (with her tongue in cheek humor) that for some women, wearing make-up is an act of charity towards others?

Larf well I must admit I do frequent my local cosmetics store for industrial strength mouthwash in the cold and flu season

 

[Shin]

Larf well I must admit I do frequent my local cosmetics store for industrial strength mouthwash in the cold and flu season

There’s a talk in the audio sermons below, one of the many modesty sermons if I recall correctly, but which in particular I do not recall, where it explains when how makeup can be used properly and improperly.

 

[John_of_Woking]

There’s a talk in the audio sermons below, one of the many modesty sermons if I recall correctly, but which in particular I do not recall, where it explains when how makeup can be used properly and improperly.

Thanks Shin - keep up the good work

 

[Shin]

Good to hear it John.

I vaguely recall that one way make-up would be used improperly, would be in matters of deception, i.e. a woman making herself better looking than she actually was through it - so that, when the mask comes off, she’s quite a different person. But when it could be used would be say, to repair damage such as from an accident.

I’ve been wanting to hear that sermon again for sometime actually, because it touches on some fundamentals in regards to morality and appearance in how it deals with the issue, but haven’t recalled exactly where it is.

‘I must disfigure the face which contrary to God’s commandment I have painted with rouge, white lead, and antimony. I must mortify that body which has been given up to many pleasures. I must make up for my long laughter by constant weeping. I must exchange my soft linen and costly silks for rough goat’s hair. I who have pleased my husband and the world in the past, desire now to please Christ.’

St. Paula

I have from St. Bridget of Sweden’s Revelations, Christ instructing St. Bridget about the Queen of Naples:

Christ speaks: ”Write to her that she should make a clean confession of all that she had done from her youth and that she should have a firm purpose of amendment according to the advice of her confessor. Second, she should diligently recall the manner and the quality of her life during her marriage and during her rule; for she is going to render an account of everything to me. Third, she must have the intention of paying her debts and of restoring that which she knows was wrongly acquired. For the soul is in peril as long as such things are kept; and it does no good to give lavish gifts if debts go unpaid. Fourth, she is not to burden the community with her new inventions, but instead should lighten the burdens which have grown customary. For God will hear the sigh and the crying of those in misery.

Fifth, she must have councilors who are just and not covetous; and she must entrust her judgments to such men as love truth and do not fawn upon factions or seek to grow rich but know how to be content with what is necessary. Sixth, every day, at fixed times, she should remember God’s wounds and his passion, for by this means the love of God is renewed in the heart. Seventh, at fixed times she should collect the poor, wash their feet, and refresh them. She should love all her subjects with sincere charity, bringing all those at strife to accord and consoling those who are unjustly offended. Eighth, she should grant her gifts with discretion and according to her means, not oppressing some while making others rich, but wisely relieving some without burdening anyone.

Ninth, she is not to be more attentive to the money of criminals than to justice; but setting aside all greed, she is to weigh the quality of the crimes and show more compassion where she sees greater humility. Tenth, during her lifetime, she is to apply all her diligence to ensure that her kingdom can be in a calm state after her death, for I predict to her that henceforth she will not have offspring from her womb. Eleventh, she should be content with the colors and beauty by which God has adorned her face; for extraneous color is very displeasing to God. Twelfth, she is to acquire greater humility and contrition for her sins because, in my eyes, she is a predator of many souls, a prodigal squanderer of my goods, and a rod of tribulation to my friends. Thirteenth, she must have continual fear in her heart because in all the time she has had, she has led the life of a lascivious woman rather than that of a queen.

Fourteenth, let her put aside worldly customs and those women who flatter her. The short time that she has left, she should spend in honoring me, for up to now she has treated me as if I were a human being without recollection of her sins. Let her now fear and live in such a way that she may not feel my judgment. Otherwise, if she does not listen to me, I will judge her not as a queen but as an ungrateful apostate; and I will scourge her from head to heel; and she will be a disgrace before me and my angels and my saints.”

Item, a revelation. Christ speaks: ”Write those things with fewer and gentler words, just as the Holy Spirit will inflame you, and send them through my bishop to the queen.”

 

[mommamaree]

Actually, I think the use of cosmetics can help provide a nice parallel to the modest apparel conversation. IMHO, there is a right way and a wrong way to use cosmetics. If they are used sparingly, to accentuate one’s positive facial features, or to cover up imperfections or scars, I think this can be a proper use. But I think a lot of women (not thinking of any one in particular) think that if a little is good, more is better, and they end up looking like a real “painted lady”.
Similarly, the overuse of accessories would not be modest. So the parallel, in my mind, is that if an outfit fits well, and covers from shoulders to knees, even if it exposes the clavicles (or for women with larger breasts, the plumpness at the decolletage, although not actual cleavage), then that women is probably well within the boundaries of what may be considered as modest. The fact that the outfit may show off the best features of her figure should not be seen as a bad thing. God made women to be…well, womanly. And so her womanly shape need not be hidden, but neither must it be flaunted with all the curves hanging out.
The moderation that applies to cosmetics and accessories can easily be applied to actual apparel, and for that matter, to footwear. As an aside, a few weeks back, I saw a women tiptoeing across the parish hall (where our parish must hold our Sunday masses) in these ridiculously and dangerously high stiletto heels that laced up the front of her feet. She was probably about 6 inches off the floor and in danger of breaking an ankle. I wondered why in the world she would choose such outrageous footwear, but then again, as a naturally tall woman myself, I tend to stick to flats and, as a mother, ergonomic footwear, so what do I know?
So, in conclusion, it comes to my mind that what we Christian ladies should be striving for is a beautiful spirit that shines forth from a pleasant countenance, rather than messing around with the glitz and the glamour of secular fashions. There is nothing wrong with dressing prettily or accessorizing or using some cosmetics, and these can even be good things, because it communicates to others that we are content in our own skin and we enjoy being women. But neither should these things signal our worth to others nor should they become our obsession. Does anyone remember that wonderful scripture reference where Paul talks about not adorning oneself with gold and braided hair but with a beautiful spirit? I like that instruction, but I am not yet very good at recalling scripture.

 

[Shin]

1st Timothy Chapter 2

‘In like manner women also in decent apparel: adorning themselves with modesty and sobriety, not with plaited hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly attire, but as it becometh women professing godliness, with good works.’

Yes a wonderful piece!