Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[Shin]

TV is full of the lack of chastity and modesty for example.

As a general rule it is best to give it up. There are many other good spiritual reasons for doing so.

To a certain extent, one can only watch Catholic material, but plenty of what is put forth as religious works actually has flaws in it – filmmakers love to flash, to take the name of the Lord in vain, etc.

Once one becomes sensitive to what is morally corrupting, by getting out of the water, one realizes more and more that one has accepted what one should never accept, simply by habit and its common use.

 

[Shin]

We can’t just say because something is happening in the Vatican these days it’s morally acceptable. Especially in lax times like these, where every discipline has been nearly effaced or effaced.

There have been plenty of times of laxity throughout history, and worse, in regards to these matters in the Vatican, corruption of all kinds – and certainly what is let in today would be forbidden by far more Popes than allowed.

There’ve been paintings that Popes ordered painted over, and other Popes ordered the paint off again. In other words, a conflict.

So, in cases like this where some things are gotten away with which should not be, you have to look at the overall teaching throughout history and the fundamentals, not just the example of the instant – to take your faith only from today alone is not Catholicism.

For someone just beginning this can be a bit much… But the natural law is written in the heart… with prayer and reading one can find what one seeks, if one is open to finding whatever answer God has, rather than whatever one wishes.

Prayer, humility, prudence and caution. Caution about what can be harmful and sinful.

 

[Serap]

Serap, why don’t you post a picture resembling the outfit you wore.

We are not trying to make you feel any less than the beautiful daughter of Christ you are. I think you and I agree a lot more than you think on what women can and should wear. You said you wore a v-neck and v-necks can be modest if something is worn under them.

Example:

wouldn’t Shin find this immodest though b/c it’s tight fitted? It seems to me like many women think fitted clothing is also immodest.

I would wear the attached outfite with a pair of black leggings or skinny jeans.

 

[Shin]

Thank you Serap.

If it’s doubtful it’s best not to post something as an example.

Shared privately between women is one thing – publicly – it’s often a problem.

 

[C_S_P_B]

There have been plenty of times of laxity throughout history, and worse, in regards to these matters in the Vatican, corruption of all kinds – and certainly what is let in today would be forbidden by far more Popes than allowed.

There’ve been paintings that Popes ordered painted over, and other Popes ordered the paint off again. In other words, a conflict.

So I guess you are opposed to the paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Now it is also clear why you avoid quoting Pope John Paul II, Love & Responsibility and Theology of the Body. Pope Benidict XVI also wrote on Eros

 

[Shin]

CSPB you like to put words in people’s mouths a lot they didn’t say, and jump to conclusions a good deal. You’re not going to get very far with that in life.

 

[C_S_P_B]

Yes, women have a particular weight all their own in modesty…

Especially in these days.

Sigh.

At least I will say…

It is true also though that men have a particular weight all their own in purity… Thank God women do not have to bear it. It is part of the difference, one can be very thankful for.

You sigh a lot.

Well, I have no complaints on being a man. It is not such a burden. I have not yet read where men are the weaker sex. A man’s integrity is sufficient, otherwise the women would have Heaven all to themselves. You seem to think that men are consumed by indecent thoughts.

I do not think that women are morally or spiritually superior to men. Let’s talk about the sin of Pride for a while, because humility is a virtue often in short supply.

 

[C_S_P_B]

CSPB you like to put words in people’s mouths a lot they didn’t say, and jump to conclusions a good deal. You’re not going to get very far with that in life.

OK, what has Pope John Paul II said about modesty? I am touched by your concern with how far I get in life.

 

[edwest2]

It is difficult to be a woman or a man today because we are constantly bombarded with sexual messages. How much time do we spend in Church or reading the Bible? And we should not let “modern” society be our guide.

Example: In the October 2-3, 2010 issue of the Wall Street Journal, we are told that the gods of fashion have issued a new decree: the stick-thin silhouette is out. “Today’s iteration of the curvy look is balanced and ladylike; elegance is key.” Too often, women take this as permission or affirmation. It should be ignored.

An attractive friend of mine, who has since divorced from my other friend, once said the following: “If I had legs like that I’d wear miniskirts all the time.” For who? Other women? Men? She was married at the time.

Women must be viewed as complete persons, not as a collection of parts. We go into a relationship based on respect, earned trust and spiritual compatibility. If that groundwork is not established first, then what happens after is not likely to be stable.

God bless,
Ed

 

[BingoBoy]

Shin;7215245:

There have been plenty of times of laxity throughout history, and worse, in regards to these matters in the Vatican, corruption of all kinds – and certainly what is let in today would be forbidden by far more Popes than allowed.

There’ve been paintings that Popes ordered painted over, and other Popes ordered the paint off again. In other words, a conflict.

So I guess you are opposed to the paintings on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Now it is also clear why you avoid quoting Pope John Paul II, Love & Responsibility and Theology of the Body. Pope Benidict XVI also wrote on Eros

.

So which Vicars of Christ should be followed?

what is the quote?

 

[BingoBoy]

Hi BingoBoy’s Wife,

I will try to chime in here. Not that I’m the Pope or something, I’m not infallible… So take my advice for what it’s worth - just some thinking out loud from a Catholic guy.

First off, your confusion may be related to the fact that part of this thread dealt with what we are supposed to wear inside the church, and part of the thread dealt with what to wear in general, for work, for everyday life, outside the church. Now, if you check that illustrated dress code in front of St. Peter’s Basilica, you will immediately see that it does NOT forbid women in pants from entering St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican. Thus, I think we have a very strong logical case for the rule that if the Pope doesn’t forbid women from wearing pants, in St. Peter’s Basilica in the Vatican of all places, you and other women shouldn’t be worried about committing a sin by wearing pants. Now, I guess, dressing as female-to-male or male-to-female transvestites would be another business, and it would be offensive. But when a woman puts on some pants which were designed for women and look feminine, that just doesn’t make her a transvestite, and it doesn’t make her a sinner. Let’s not be more Catholic than the Pope. If pants for women are acceptable in St. Peter’s Basilica, they should be also acceptable outside church, for the workplace, for skiing, horseriding, or whatever. I love skiing. Women wearing ski outfits with pants still look very nice and feminine on the slopes. There’s a way to make women’s stuff feminine-looking and designers know how to do a good job with it, including with women’s ski outfits.

Regarding how much of one’s body to cover, there are some hard and fast rules in church. What the Pope, as Bishop of Rome, instituted and had enforced in his Diocese of Rome, is probably wise to follow for all of us, whether we are located in Rome, elsewhere in Italy, or even on another continent such as America, Asia, Africa, or Australia. And those rules say, one should be covered from the shoulders down to the knees - INSIDE CHURCH. But then, does this mean that a woman cannot go jogging on the beach, wearing shorts and sports bras? In my opinion (and again, I’m not the Pope ) there’s nothing wrong about jogging on the beach, wearing shorts and sports bras.

Thank you. This makes sense to me. However, there have been a lot of posts on this thread stating that the dress code for the vatican should be the dress code for everything you do in life. And yes, I did find it odd that the Vatican even said it was ok for a women to wear pants, yet there are people on this thread still saying that it’s not ok

 

[BingoBoy]

Yes, women have a particular weight all their own in modesty…

Especially in these days.

Sigh.

At least I will say…

It is true also though that men have a particular weight all their own in purity… Thank God women do not have to bear it. It is part of the difference, one can be very thankful for.

There are many athletic activities which in and of themselves aren’t much of a problem if at all, but do become a problem in public, especially when fashion demands clothing that is completely morally unacceptable – which it so often does.

Public gymnastics would be one of these things, as long as men are present, the outfits and poses as a general rule make it impossible. If only schools had not moved to be co-ed.

Some say that if you wear large towels, and a large swimming suit you can get in and out of the water discretely with help. But no swimming suit of these times, alone, one piece or not, can be considered modest. It is not truly clothing at all.

One has to not walk on borderlines but stay well clear of them or one goes over, it’s pretty much inevitable.

We live in times of particular moral corruption in regards to matters of modesty.

Catholic schooling of course has completely fallen to pieces just like regular catechesis. Or we would not have cheerleaders at the schools – It’s hard to think of an role more immodest simply by nature, besides say joining the Rockettes.

This question is for Shin.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge on this topic, and you seem to really feel confident in that you know the boundaries of modesty.

You feel as though swimming, cheerleading, and gymnastics are no-go’s for women. So what would you recommend a young lady do as a form of physical activity instead? What sports team would still be appropriate for her to participate in at school, for example? Any suggestions/ideas would be welcome.

 

[C_S_P_B]

"Sexual modesty cannot then in any simple way be identified with the use of clothing, nor shamelessness with the absence of clothing and total or partial nakedness… There are circumstances in which nakedness is not immodest… Nakedness as such is not to be equated with physical shamelessness. Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person… The human body is not in itself shameful, nor for the same reasons are sensual reactions, and human sensuality in general. Shamelessness (just like shame and modesty) is a function of the interior of a person…”

Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla)
Love & Responsibility*

All I want to say is that modesty cannot be reduced to rules but neither will I promote immodesty,

Under JPII the Sistene Chapel was restored and the fig leafs removed. A good movie about the Michelangelo’s painting of the Sistene Chapel is “The Agony and the Ecstasy (1965)” This touches a bit on the controversy that has existed since the 1500s.

 

[Serap]

Thank you Serap.

If it’s doubtful it’s best not to post something as an example.

Shared privately between women is one thing – publicly – it’s often a problem.

 

[RachelKH]

wearing shorts doesn’t have to be indecent or immodest – there are looser shorts that don’t hug curves, longer shorts that cover much of the area between the knees and where the legs end, shorts that don’t risk showing lower belly skin.
wearing t-shirts doesn’t have to indecent or immodest – fitted clothing shows the curves and the movements of the breasts, etc but the looser and not so thin t-shirts are decent and covering
i swim a lot – not sunbathe – and i wear one piece suits that cover and hide and let me be modest – i swim 1-2 miles each day in summer, so the suits can’t be dragging me down, but they can still be feminine yet modest – you have to search and keep your standards up, but you can find good suits like that.
i run – i play tennis, basketball, volleyball, bike, hike, etc and i can do all that and more w/o being immodest. yes, there will be those who can find something to lust over no matter how modest i dress, but those are not my concern – they would lust if a woman walked near them in the pitch dark because that is who they are.
but not wearing fitted and revealing clothing gives me a much better chance of being valued for who i am, rather that what physical parts i have.
teach your children to value and respect themselves and their bodies, not to display them and put their appearance above their inner being.

 

[BingoBoy]

"Sexual modesty cannot then in any simple way be identified with the use of clothing, nor shamelessness with the absence of clothing and total or partial nakedness… There are circumstances in which nakedness is not immodest… Nakedness as such is not to be equated with physical shamelessness. Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person… The human body is not in itself shameful, nor for the same reasons are sensual reactions, and human sensuality in general. Shamelessness (just like shame and modesty) is a function of the interior of a person…”

Pope John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla)
Love & Responsibility

All I want to say is that modesty cannot be reduced to rules but neither will I promote immodesty,

Under JPII the Sistene Chapel was restored and the fig leafs removed. A good movie about the Michelangelo’s painting of the Sistene Chapel is “The Agony and the Ecstasy (1965)*” This touches a bit on the controversy that has existed since the 1500s.

Hmmm interesting. So he is basically saying that as long as our intentions aren’t bad, there is no definite rule as to what we can and cannot wear? I ask this because I can think of a lot of practical reasons why a woman would wear shorts and a tank top. To go for a jog on a hot day being one of them. Women don’t always dress that way to promote lust. We just want to live our lives! Maybe there is hope?

ps - JPII is a huge hero of mine.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Catholic schooling of course has completely fallen to pieces just like regular catechesis. Or we would not have cheerleaders at the schools – It’s hard to think of an role more immodest simply by nature, besides say joining the Rockettes.

Uh, let’s see, Shin how about lingerie model, stripper, porn film star? If you think cheerleading and being a Rockette is immodest “simply by nature” (apparently, even if they dress modestly), then I am stumped as to what you would call these activities. Also, you posted a comment disapproving of co-ed education. Would you also recommend that Chuch pews go back to being separated by sex, then? That would seem to take care of much of the problem of men being “distracted” by women in Mass.

Anyway, I am actually pleased Joseph L. Varga, that you clarified your earlier remarks. I had gotten the impression from you earlier that you thought the Vatican dress code should indeed be applied to every day life. Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

Mrs. Bingo Boy, I don’t think anyone can give any thelogical justification that wearing pants are inherently immodest. Indeed, as I understand, one of the charges against St. Joan of Arc in her show trial by the English (who then had her burned at the stake) was that she had sinned by dressing in male clothing. In her case, though, her wearing male clothing was not just for practicality in battle but to better guard her chastity. I do not personally think St. Joan was guilty of immodesty. Nor was she trying to pass herself off as a man. She often referred to herself as “the Maid” in the sense of maiden or virgin and made it very clear that she was a woman of virtue (apparently, one of her first actions when she was given an army to lead was to chase away the camp prostitutes with her sword).

I don’t think women wearing pants while exercising are sinning at all. I do think that some women use sports as an excuse to be immodest. Indeed, many female athletes have gone along with the secular tendency to sexualize the female body by not only dressing in skimpy clothing, but posing nude in magazines like Playboy, and using their sexuality to broaden their appeal. However, I don’t think the female body is “dirty”, and I don’t think women need to dress in ways that completely obliterate any attractive features. That really is the attitude I am getting from some modesty advocates, that there is something inherently sin-inducing about the female body, and indeed the condition of being female itself. That a woman’s mere existence is a “near occasion of sin” for men and that women should either be kept out of sight and out of mind at home, or covered up completely so that no one can tell they have breasts or hips.

If I thought the Church taught this (as opposed to individual Saints), then I certainly wouldn’t be considering crossing the Tiber. I know it doesn’t, though.

 

[RachelKH]

i go to daily Mass as do about 40 or so people here in my small town.
one woman who comes daily also has a very trim, feminine figure and dresses in what some would call modest clothing – high neckline, long skirts or pants, but she dresses in these covering clothing that are also very fitted. her bottom is very defined as are her breasts and her other beautiful curves – i have seen men move so as to not be distracted by her because she is so very ‘outlined’ and they come to Mass to worship, not lust. one man i noticed every week getting up on his tiptoes and craning his neck in her direction periodically during Mass to get a better look – he has since moved to a front seat to avoid the temptation to view her – when this woman would wear a loose skirt, i could actually hear this man sigh in relief when he came in and knew it wouldn’t be such a struggle that Mass! 2 years ago this all was news to me about married men looking and lusting and the effects of our dress on them. it’s been a shocking eye-opener.

 

[Prayerfully]

OK, what has Pope John Paul II said about modesty? I am touched by your concern with how far I get in life.

Please keep in mind that on CAF, there are people who are so traditional, they don’t accept that there has been a legitimate Pope since prior to Vatican ll.

I am not saying that anyone posting on here subscribes to that theory of Sedevacantism, but when those that post don’t respond well to JPll’s encyclicals, works, or show an obvious disapprovel of those he canonized…it makes you wonder.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

i go to daily Mass as do about 40 or so people here in my small town.
one woman who comes daily also has a very trim, feminine figure and dresses in what some would call modest clothing – high neckline, long skirts or pants, but she dresses in these covering clothing that are also very fitted. her bottom is very defined as are her breasts and her other beautiful curves – i have seen men move so as to not be distracted by her because she is so very ‘outlined’ and they come to Mass to worship, not lust. one man i noticed every week getting up on his tiptoes and craning his neck in her direction periodically during Mass to get a better look – he has since moved to a front seat to avoid the temptation to view her – when this woman would wear a loose skirt, i could actually hear this man sigh in relief when he came in and knew it wouldn’t be such a struggle that Mass! 2 years ago this all was news to me about married men looking and lusting and the effects of our dress on them. it’s been a shocking eye-opener.

Poor lady. She seems to be trying her best, she goes to daily Mass.

The guy craning his neck is totally innocent? He doesn’t need to pay attention to the Mass just a bit more?