Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[mommamaree]

Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps a root cause to some of these issues has to do with parenting? When my husband and I go to church and we see these little teeny-boppers wearing miniskirts or low-cut henley’s and they’re being accompanied by parents-- we should be looking to them first, not the children.

I think most of us who has seen the teenyboppers dress this way automatically assume that the parents are the ones responsible for their daughter’s attire, so it usually isn’t stated aloud. It’s one of those things that I often think goes without saying, but maybe I shouldn’t assume others are on the same page. Teenage girls are still under the authority of their parents, and frankly I tend to get angry at their father for not better protecting them. Young girls can be so naive and unaware of what their clothing choices are saying about them, but their parents should know better.
Regarding the hips and bust issue with clothing…I know just what you mean. I have an hourglass figure, and even though many women would love to have such a shape, clothing designers remain woefully blind to the prevalence of this body type. I either have to wear clothes that fit my hips and are massive around my waist (which leads to having to hitch up my pants/skirts every five minutes), with shirts that look like tents in order to fit across the bust, or I have to wear clothes that fit VERY closely across the hips and bust and often times cut low enough on my chest to see cleavage. It does not do this to women with a straighter figure. But I gotta work with what God gave me, so I strive to be as modest as I can, and sometimes, I find that clothing that looked decent in the store dressing room is actually something I can never wear once I get it home, because it makes quite the statement on a moving, active body. I find this happens most often with maternity clothes, ironically.
But it helps to notice that I am not the only one. And I will not be ashamed of the fact that God, in his perfect wisdom, gave me a curvy figure, even if it happens to be out of vogue right now with clothing designers. I see plenty of other women with similar problems. We do not want to be frumpy, but we also do not want to be on display either. And really, it is only around certain types of men that I feel ogled or turned into a piece of meat in their minds. The rest of them seem much more gentlemanly. I am sure the cads would probably continue to act that way no matter to what lengths I went for extreme modesty. Such lecherous men would probably ogle a nun!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think in my case it’s more about the lack of respect-- along with my coworker-- because we can’t help how our bodies are shaped. What am I supposed to do, get a breast reduction?

LOL…but not quite, it seems like the logical conclusion to some of the attitudes here, that women are obligated to make sure no man within ten feet of them have any lustful thoughts in their presence. After all, doesn’t the Bible say “if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off”? So by the same token…

Anyway, I sympathize with the women here who have a hard time finding modest clothing. Now, while I am not as “endowed” in the bust areas as some others here, I am quite “petite” so many shirts and dresses with necklines that are moderate on taller women wind up being quite low on me.

And really, it is only around certain types of men that I feel ogled or turned into a piece of meat in their minds. The rest of them seem much more gentlemanly. I am sure the cads would probably continue to act that way no matter to what lengths I went for extreme modesty. Such lecherous men would probably ogle a nun!

Or a woman breastfeeding…(opens can of worms, then runs away to put flak jacket on)

 

[mommamaree]

Or a woman breastfeeding…(opens can of worms, then runs away to put flak jacket on)

Yeah, this has happened to me and many other moms…But again, I will not refuse the blessings that God gave me, this time being a hungry baby and my milk-producing mammaries simply because some bozo has a sick mind. This is why I do prefer to always have a light blanket or cover, just in case I get ogled, but most of the time, I find I don’t need the cover (which is good because while newborns tolerate it, my older infants never would).

 

[spunjalebi]

This conversation has made me create a lifelong mental note to teach my boys (if I have sons) to treat women with dignity and respect, the same way they would treat the Holy Mother if she were to ever appear to them. No matter how badly a woman is dressed.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I have a problem. I wanted to start my day with something good. One church in my area has on Saturdays a “Mass of the Blessed Virgin Mary” at 8.30 a.m. Since I have a great devotion to our Blessed Mother, I was like, let me attend Mass first, before I do other things. Upon arriving to church, I learned that this week we had the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, and we were going to recite the Rosary after Mass, and have Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, to commemorate her feast. I was so happy.

Then, after the Mass started, a woman came in, wearing approximately what’s shown in the pictures attached. Her short was actually shorter than the one shown in the attached picture. And I find myself swearing under my breath, and uttering some really nasty words, while we are standing and everybody else is reciting the appropriate prayer at that point in the Mass. I lost it. I got mad. Thus, while I planned to start my day doing something good, and partaking in the Eucharist, I just kneeled there, shaken, while other people walked up in the Communion line. I wasn’t ready to take Communion. It was a fortunate thing that we had the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament and the Rosary afterwards. At least I could participate in something in the Blessed Mother’s honor. But I happened to commit a sin at the Mass dedicated to her, while in fact I intended to do something pleasing to God, and to Holy Mary, this morning.

 

[silentstar]

Regarding the hips and bust issue with clothing…I know just what you mean. I have an hourglass figure, and even though many women would love to have such a shape, clothing designers remain woefully blind to the prevalence of this body type. I either have to wear clothes that fit my hips and are massive around my waist (which leads to having to hitch up my pants/skirts every five minutes), with shirts that look like tents in order to fit across the bust, or I have to wear clothes that fit VERY closely across the hips and bust and often times cut low enough on my chest to see cleavage. It does not do this to women with a straighter figure. But I gotta work with what God gave me, so I strive to be as modest as I can, and sometimes, I find that clothing that looked decent in the store dressing room is actually something I can never wear once I get it home, because it makes quite the statement on a moving, active body.

I think fashion/clothes designers are a large part of the problem. They often don’t design clothes for real women’s fgures, but instead for some kind of anorexic models. That means that the waists of pants and skirts and dresses often don’t hit in the right place, and the material up top can be too tight or too loose, and pants that fit in the waist can be too tight in the hip area, among other problems.

I see a doctor who has probably never weighed much more than 100 pounds and she is thin but not anorexic or stick-figured and she has trouble getting clothes off the rack that fit. I struggle with being overweight and have a figure that is between pear-shape and hour-glass and I am several inches taller than she is and I also have trouble getting clothes that fit. It is common for me that if jeans fit in the hip area, they are too loose for my waist and require a really tight belt that looks odd.

I had this same problem when I was much thinner. I’ve heard other women complain about clothes that just don’t fit also. I think too many fashion designers are either men (straight or gay) or they are women who tend to make harsh judgments about how women should look. While I think a lot of immodesty comes from just not wearing enough clothing, some of it comes from the idea that women should fit the clothes, not vice versa, and the clothes are just not adequate in their fit.

I’ve had good luck with Talbots which even though they tend to be kind of preppy/professional in a “boring” DC kind of way, and they can be expensive, they have clothes that fit a variety of women and their clothes are not too revealing, usually. Although it depends; some of their clothes may be too revealing for religious women but I can always find something that looks OK. Sometimes I have to buy clothes and then have them altered or I just can’t wear them with any kind of modesty. It is really annoying, and I’ve always had this problem.

I don’t know if men’s clothes are similar but I’ve noticed too many fashion designers look at women as if we are “products” to be judged for our appearance, rather than people, and it’s somehow our fault if the clothes don’t fit well.

This doesn’t apply to everyone but I’ve heard stories from a lot of people.

 

[Serap]

I have a problem. I wanted to start my day with something good. One church in my area has on Saturdays a “Mass of the Blessed Virgin Mary” at 8.30 a.m. Since I have a great devotion to our Blessed Mother, I was like, let me attend Mass first, before I do other things. Upon arriving to church, I learned that this week we had the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, and we were going to recite the Rosary after Mass, and have Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, to commemorate her feast. I was so happy.

Then, after the Mass started, a woman came in, wearing approximately what’s shown in the pictures attached. Her short was actually shorter than the one shown in the attached picture. And I find myself swearing under my breath, and uttering some really nasty words, while we are standing and everybody else is reciting the appropriate prayer at that point in the Mass. I lost it. I got mad. Thus, while I planned to start my day doing something good, and partaking in the Eucharist, I just kneeled there, shaken, while other people walked up in the Communion line. I wasn’t ready to take Communion. It was a fortunate thing that we had the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament and the Rosary afterwards. At least I could participate in something in the Blessed Mother’s honor. But I happened to commit a sin at the Mass dedicated to her, while in fact I intended to do something pleasing to God, and to Holy Mary, this morning.

That sucks. you shouldn’t let these women get to you so much. They aren’t going away, so just try to focus on God and try your best to ignore them.

 

[spunjalebi]

Then, after the Mass started, a woman came in, wearing approximately what’s shown in the pictures attached. Her short was actually shorter than the one shown in the attached picture.

I don’t mean to sound so brusque, but when it comes down to it women who dress like that cannot be used as excuses to put all women into the same box. Personally that’s how I think the OP approached the issue and considering the fact that he hasn’t chimed in recently, I’m going to assume that was the intent.

How do you think when I see men and boys dressed like below?

I mean when I see the first one I think “uck,” and when I see the second I think “ugh.”

Everyone has the ability to think about what it means to dress respectably. I always say that when people take the modesty issue overboard, maybe women should just dress like the picture.

But then again we’d probably hear about some guy complaining about how he likes big breasts and/or wide hips and didn’t know that his wife was going to be so boyishly hipped or small busted after marriage.

 

[spunjalebi]

I think fashion/clothes designers are a large part of the problem. They often don’t design clothes for real women’s fgures, but instead for some kind of anorexic models.

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[bhall0689]

I have a problem. I wanted to start my day with something good. One church in my area has on Saturdays a “Mass of the Blessed Virgin Mary” at 8.30 a.m. Since I have a great devotion to our Blessed Mother, I was like, let me attend Mass first, before I do other things. Upon arriving to church, I learned that this week we had the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary, and we were going to recite the Rosary after Mass, and have Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament, to commemorate her feast. I was so happy.

Then, after the Mass started, a woman came in, wearing approximately what’s shown in the pictures attached. Her short was actually shorter than the one shown in the attached picture. And I find myself swearing under my breath, and uttering some really nasty words, while we are standing and everybody else is reciting the appropriate prayer at that point in the Mass. I lost it. I got mad. Thus, while I planned to start my day doing something good, and partaking in the Eucharist, I just kneeled there, shaken, while other people walked up in the Communion line. I wasn’t ready to take Communion. It was a fortunate thing that we had the Exposition of the Blessed Sacrament and the Rosary afterwards. At least I could participate in something in the Blessed Mother’s honor. But I happened to commit a sin at the Mass dedicated to her, while in fact I intended to do something pleasing to God, and to Holy Mary, this morning.

Or maybe… the Holy Mother was glad she was there, even if she made it last minute and had to come in those embarrassing clothes from whatever she was doing? It was not a Mass of obligation, and this woman was here out of her own devotion. The fact that you allowed this woman in gym clothes (NOT meant to be seductive by nature, but to allow for free range of motion) to distract you enough to not partake in the Eucharist is on YOUR part weak and shameful.

 

[Palomas]

With all due respect to those who responded to Joseph Varga’s latest post. What came through for me in reading this post (and in reading various prior posts he’s made) is that he’s gotten so fed up with how dress at Mass has become in his area (he did say he lives in Miami), that this was just the “straw that broke the camel’s back”, so to speak. I don’t see how his post was trying to lump all women into the same box? Of course, he shouldn’t have sinned the way he did. He obviously realized that by refraining from going to Communion. But I can totally appreciate his sense of frustration about this issue. I, for one, have been guilty of sinning at Mass for various reasons, and I think we can all say the same thing if we’re honest with ourselves.

 

[masha]

I think fashion/clothes designers are a large part of the problem. They often don’t design clothes for real women’s fgures, but instead for some kind of anorexic models. That means that the waists of pants and skirts and dresses often don’t hit in the right place, and the material up top can be too tight or too loose, and pants that fit in the waist can be too tight in the hip area, among other problems.

I had this same problem when I was much thinner. I’ve heard other women complain about clothes that just don’t fit also. I think too many fashion designers are either men (straight or gay) or they are women who tend to make harsh judgments about how women should look. While I think a lot of immodesty comes from just not wearing enough clothing, some of it comes from the idea that women should fit the clothes, not vice versa, and the clothes are just not adequate in their fit.

I don’t know if men’s clothes are similar but I’ve noticed too many fashion designers look at women as if we are “products” to be judged for our appearance, rather than people, and it’s somehow our fault if the clothes don’t fit well.

I know what you mean, I’m essentially an hourglass as well, with a very distinct difference between my breasts and waist and hips. I sew, which makes it easier for me to have nice clothes, but every pattern must be altered. When I buy shirts, I generally buy to fit my bust and alter the waist if I possibly can without damaging the overall effect. Generally, what is in style is extremely immodest on me, or else just looks bad. So I don’t really try to be in style, I dress in more “ethnic” styles, which take a figure into account and the clothes look fantastic, but it can be so hard to find things that fit. If you’re into skirts, they tend to "balance the lower body better than pants, and wrap skirts especially are designed to fit your waist and flow over hips. You could also check out Muslim or Orthodox Jewish modest clothing websites, they often design clothes with women in mind, and their clothing is often very beautiful.

 

[Serap]

With all due respect to those who responded to Joseph Varga’s latest post. What came through for me in reading this post (and in reading various prior posts he’s made) is that he’s gotten so fed up with how dress at Mass has become in his area (he did say he lives in Miami), that this was just the “straw that broke the camel’s back”, so to speak. I don’t see how his post was trying to lump all women into the same box? Of course, he shouldn’t have sinned the way he did. He obviously realized that by refraining from going to Communion. But I can totally appreciate his sense of frustration about this issue. I, for one, have been guilty of sinning at Mass for various reasons, and I think we can all say the same thing if we’re honest with ourselves.

I kinda agree. Showing up for mass in revealing work out clothes is off the top for me too. I think it’s innappropriate dress for mass…I mean, at least put a pair of pants on first!!!

He’s not asking women to wear burkas by any means.

He is a bit too conservative for me in the sense that he is against off the shoulders dresses, v-necks, fitted pants, etc., but some things are just not meant for church (i.e. sexy work-out clothes with short shorts with some butt cheek possibly showing).

 

[faithfully]

I have a problem…

So, Here is my question.

What are you going to do about it?

Yes, this woman was dressed for her running workout, not for Mass. Heck, maybe she ran to Mass. No idea.

But rather than sit here and complain I’m wondering what pro active thing you have done?

See. Now. If it were me… I’d rather be asking for help to write an article that was not condensending, or abrupt, about proper attire for church. Realizing that full suits, and floor length skirts are not the standard in your area. And what it means to present yourself in Front of God in HIS holy house. And I’d take it to my priest, and say… May I make a donation and have this placed in the Church bulletin? Or, Would it be ok, If I ran several copies off, placing one on the Church Bulletin board. I would not try to impose just my opinion, but rather an improve since of modesty. Hem lines AT LEAST between mid thigh and ankle. Shirts that cover stomachs. V necks that aren’t deeply cut. Or suggest scarves, wraps or light sweaters as an extra layer/cover. For men, suggest PRESSED jeans, or slacks. That are anchored in an appropriate location. No t-shirts with words… Basically, if you’d wear it to the beach, perhaps consider it’s NOT right for church. However, don’t allow your lack of wardrobe prevent you from visiting with God. Just make your best, conservative effort. Perhaps whatever you would wear to a job interview. Realizing that the finanacial analyst and the burger king candidates will have different ideas. And well, hopefully the ones applying to Hooters will realize you don’t their job???

It is entirely possible that the priest is just glad to see people in Church… You do live in an area where it’s seemingly ok to walk down the street in a bikini. So… I mean, her dress was “modest” in comparison…

But I’ve got to be honest. When you’re sitting in God’s house, there is NO room to judge a single person that saw fit to make it there. And I’ll admit, I’ve rolled my eyes a time or two at what I see walking through the church. Young girls who look like their mothers just drug them from a pool, and just grabbed a bathing suit cover.

There was a man, who always made it to Mass at a parish I used to go to. Filthy hair. dirty tattered clothes. And the stink was enough to make your eyes tear. But it was important to him, if nothing else to be there. And sometimes he would fall asleep. Probably because it was the safest warmest place he’d been all night… And I suspect, God was perhaps even more pleased to see him than to see me.

So, Now… What are you going to do about it???

 

[bhall0689]

I suppose my point is that we are never in the true position to judge what another is wearing to Mass. What if they came from somewhere else, and had to make a split decision between missing Mass and going home to retrieve “proper attire?” I think that making it to Mass is more important.

What if they are very poor, and only able to shop at thrift stores or wear hand-me-downs? Although this probably isn’t the case the majority of the time, it is the case SOME of the time. If a woman’s shorts are enough to distract you from the sacrament, perhaps you need to do some more meditation and reflection.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Faithfully wrote:

When you’re sitting in God’s house, there is NO room to judge a single person that saw fit to make it there. And I’ll admit, I’ve rolled my eyes a time or two at what I see walking through the church. Young girls who look like their mothers just drug them from a pool, and just grabbed a bathing suit cover.

There was a man, who always made it to Mass at a parish I used to go to. Filthy hair. dirty tattered clothes. And the stink was enough to make your eyes tear. But it was important to him, if nothing else to be there. And sometimes he would fall asleep. Probably because it was the safest warmest place he’d been all night… And I suspect, God was perhaps even more pleased to see him than to see me.

I agree, I admire that man, and I hope my response to him would be charity and compassion, not eye-rolling and nose-pinching.

I suppose my point is that we are never in the true position to judge what another is wearing to Mass. What if they came from somewhere else, and had to make a split decision between missing Mass and going home to retrieve “proper attire?” I think that making it to Mass is more important.

What if they are very poor, and only able to shop at thrift stores or wear hand-me-downs? Although this probably isn’t the case the majority of the time, it is the case SOME of the time. If a woman’s shorts are enough to distract you from the sacrament, perhaps you need to do some more meditation and reflection.

I tend to agree with bhall. Now, I don’t think that workout clothes are appropriate for Mass (and neither would I find it appropriate for someone to go to a gym in a three piece suit). However, I think if the alternative is the person not going to Mass at all, then God would prefer that the person go to Mass.

However, Joseph L Varga, I sense a lot of anger in your post, and you make it sound like this woman somehow forced you to sin. Hmm, that reminds me of how Adam tried to excuse his sin to God by blaming Eve…

It’s not just immodesty, but any sin in general. I’d hope we all have the ability to control how we react to sin. I’ve also read posts by people who sit in Mass checking off every nontraditional aspect and get so angry, they probably aren’t in a state to worthily receive, either.

 

[ForAll]

Thanks to everyone for giving me reading material for my lunch hour today…

I wanted to chime in about people who come to Mass dressed inappropriately…as a convert, I’ve always tried to be respectful in my dress, especially at the Mass. During grad school, I worked as a bartender. And one day, my shift didn’t end on-time, so I had to rush to Mass, wearing my bartending outfit–shorts, (loose) polo shirt, and sneakers. Oh, and I REEKED of alcohol!! I was so humiliated to be in church, but I couldn’t miss Mass and I was trying to work all I could to support myself.

I was so appreciative of all the people there that smiled at me and welcomed me into their pew, even though I looked like a booze-soaked college student. I was new to that parish and everyone’s kindness meant so much to me. I imagine if they had stared at me with open disgust, I would’ve gone somewhere else–or, even worse, as a young convert, perhaps concluded that it’s better to not go, than to go in my work clothes.

I’m all for modesty. But I agree with so many of you who have pointed out what a complicated issue it is. For those of us women with large chests, nearly EVERY top is a burden! My sisters always wear these pretty scoop neck tops that look so normal on them…but I would look like an uber-slut. For those of us who live in the heat, long sleeves can be quite uncomfortable…this list of considerations goes on (and on).

When it comes right down to it, I think a greater consciousness about our dress, no matter where we are, guided by Catholic teaching, will serve us all just fine.

 

[spunjalebi]

Well the overall tone in the way some people here have regarded women who dressed like that woman referenced by J.V. implies that we all as women “better watch out.” Not to mention it also makes it sound like that particular woman “made” him think the way he did.

I think ForAll also mentioned a great point. Before my husband and I were married, he worked in labor construction and didn’t always get to wear the nice attire he wears now. Sometimes he’d have to rush to Mass too, especially during holidays in his paint-splattered, grungy, and sometimes torn and smelly clothes. That by no means he is a bum.

There are plenty of straws that break the camel’s back. What we should really be asking ourselves is if we helped place some of those straws in the first place. I’ve heard women complain about modest clothes looking dowdy, frumpy, or downright ugly but complain when young girls and women don’t dress nicely. Is complaining about the lack of modesty really justified when one believes that modesty equals frumpy and disheveled? Or aren’t those people just as guilty?

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

That sucks. you shouldn’t let these women get to you so much. They aren’t going away, so just try to focus on God and try your best to ignore them.

Yeah. I think I’m becoming a grumpy old man.

The other day I attended a “bilingual” Mass and it went like this: the priest came in and said something in English. Then, he promptly switched to Spanish, and everything was in Spanish from there on: all the readings, the homily, etc. (and I don’t speak Spanish, although I can almost pray the Rosary in Spanish). And I’m like, , is this a bilingual Mass?

Time to learn anger management.

I think I should play some reggae music and just take it easy… There’s a food chain here called Pollo Tropical (Tropical Chicken, Latin American style cuisine), they always play this goofy, “take it easy” reggae music.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I don’t mean to sound so brusque, but when it comes down to it women who dress like that cannot be used as excuses to put all women into the same box. Personally that’s how I think the OP approached the issue and considering the fact that he hasn’t chimed in recently, I’m going to assume that was the intent.

How do you think when I see men and boys dressed like below?

I mean when I see the first one I think “uck,” and when I see the second I think “ugh.”

Everyone has the ability to think about what it means to dress respectably. I always say that when people take the modesty issue overboard, maybe women should just dress like the picture.

But then again we’d probably hear about some guy complaining about how he likes big breasts and/or wide hips and didn’t know that his wife was going to be so boyishly hipped or small busted after marriage.

Spunjalebi, I apologize, because my post suggested that only women offend. Maybe I should have started a separate thread, because this thread seems to be aimed only at immodesty and women, while I certainly see plenty of immodest and/or inappropriate dressing by guys in my area. Previously, I used to live in New Orleans, which was recently “awarded” the dubious distinction of the city with the worst climate in the USA. Very hot and very humid. Yet, I almost never saw guys attending Mass in shorts. And now in Miami, which certainly has a better climate than New Orleans (less humid, breezy), the church is full of guys in shorts. There’s something deeply wrong about this. I mean, can the guys in New Orleans bear the heat and humidity and still dress in a way that respects the sacrifice of Mass (because we are remembering and celebrating Jesus Christ’s supreme sacrifice on the cross, at each Holy Mass), but the guys from Miami can’t? I don’t believe this. But they will surely dress up appropriately and nicely when going to work, going to the doctor, going to court, have a job interview or whatever. The Vatican only asks that your pants should cover your knees, when going to church. You don’t have to put on a suit. But apparently, this request is too much to a lot of guys down here. Time to bring back the draft (compulsory military service). It will really help these man-boys grow up.