Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Or maybe… the Holy Mother was glad she was there, even if she made it last minute and had to come in those embarrassing clothes from whatever she was doing? It was not a Mass of obligation, and this woman was here out of her own devotion. The fact that you allowed this woman in gym clothes (NOT meant to be seductive by nature, but to allow for free range of motion) to distract you enough to not partake in the Eucharist is on YOUR part weak and shameful.

I suppose my point is that we are never in the true position to judge what another is wearing to Mass. What if they came from somewhere else, and had to make a split decision between missing Mass and going home to retrieve “proper attire?” I think that making it to Mass is more important.

What if they are very poor, and only able to shop at thrift stores or wear hand-me-downs? Although this probably isn’t the case the majority of the time, it is the case SOME of the time. If a woman’s shorts are enough to distract you from the sacrament, perhaps you need to do some more meditation and reflection.

I did some thinking. I realize I was wrong to expect the church to be something of an oasis of safety. Jesus said there will be ravenous wolves in His Church. Even Judas, who betrayed him, was one of his own apostles. So, I guess, I shouldn’t expect the Church, and church buildings, to be exempt of bad things. There’s probably no safe place on this earth, not even inside a Catholic church. Children abused by priests could probably tell more about this. So, if what I see inside the church, during Holy Mass, upsets me, I should remember to take up my cross and follow Jesus. I’m only encountering people who show disrespect to Christ and to the heavenly hosts (Angels, Saints), as well as to their fellow men in attendance at the Mass, by the way they dress. But Christ encountered Judas in the Garden of Gethsemane, his own disciple, who came to betray him with a kiss.

So, I guess, my problem is that I have the wrong attitude. I should embrace this small cross, and unite it to Christ’s incomparably greater sufferings.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Are you talking about Tinkerbell, and the Geat Fairy Rescue?Seems to me tinkerbell has always worn this sort of costume. NO???

Yes, Faithfully, this is it. The new Tinkerbell in this Disney production from 2010. Thanks for the info.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

So, Here is my question.

What are you going to do about it?

Yes, this woman was dressed for her running workout, not for Mass. Heck, maybe she ran to Mass. No idea.

But rather than sit here and complain I’m wondering what pro active thing you have done?

See. Now. If it were me… I’d rather be asking for help to write an article that was not condensending, or abrupt, about proper attire for church. Realizing that full suits, and floor length skirts are not the standard in your area. And what it means to present yourself in Front of God in HIS holy house. And I’d take it to my priest, and say… May I make a donation and have this placed in the Church bulletin? Or, Would it be ok, If I ran several copies off, placing one on the Church Bulletin board. I would not try to impose just my opinion, but rather an improve since of modesty. Hem lines AT LEAST between mid thigh and ankle. Shirts that cover stomachs. V necks that aren’t deeply cut. Or suggest scarves, wraps or light sweaters as an extra layer/cover. For men, suggest PRESSED jeans, or slacks. That are anchored in an appropriate location. No t-shirts with words… Basically, if you’d wear it to the beach, perhaps consider it’s NOT right for church. However, don’t allow your lack of wardrobe prevent you from visiting with God. Just make your best, conservative effort. Perhaps whatever you would wear to a job interview. Realizing that the finanacial analyst and the burger king candidates will have different ideas. And well, hopefully the ones applying to Hooters will realize you don’t their job???

It is entirely possible that the priest is just glad to see people in Church… You do live in an area where it’s seemingly ok to walk down the street in a bikini. So… I mean, her dress was “modest” in comparison…

But I’ve got to be honest. When you’re sitting in God’s house, there is NO room to judge a single person that saw fit to make it there. And I’ll admit, I’ve rolled my eyes a time or two at what I see walking through the church. Young girls who look like their mothers just drug them from a pool, and just grabbed a bathing suit cover.

There was a man, who always made it to Mass at a parish I used to go to. Filthy hair. dirty tattered clothes. And the stink was enough to make your eyes tear. But it was important to him, if nothing else to be there. And sometimes he would fall asleep. Probably because it was the safest warmest place he’d been all night… And I suspect, God was perhaps even more pleased to see him than to see me.

So, Now… What are you going to do about it???

I will join various activities at the parish located on the University campus and I will speak out. Simple message. This is what the Vatican expects from you. This is what’s expected of you, if you set foot in a Catholic church, anywhere in Italy. Be covered up from your shoulders to your knees, whether you are a male or a female. And these are not poor people. I understand that some people have financial difficulties, and they will wear whatever they get. But we are talking about people who wear really expensive, and really inappropriate stuff at church.

 

[spunjalebi]

Spunjalebi, I apologize, because my post suggested that only women offend. Maybe I should have started a separate thread, because this thread seems to be aimed only at immodesty and women, while I certainly see plenty of immodest and/or inappropriate dressing by guys in my area. Previously, I used to live in New Orleans, which was recently “awarded” the dubious distinction of the city with the worst climate in the USA. Very hot and very humid. Yet, I almost never saw guys attending Mass in shorts. And now in Miami, which certainly has a better climate than New Orleans (less humid, breezy), the church is full of guys in shorts. There’s something deeply wrong about this. I mean, can the guys in New Orleans bear the heat and humidity and still dress in a way that respects the sacrifice of Mass (because we are remembering and celebrating Jesus Christ’s supreme sacrifice on the cross, at each Holy Mass), but the guys from Miami can’t? I don’t believe this. But they will surely dress up appropriately and nicely when going to work, going to the doctor, going to court, have a job interview or whatever. The Vatican only asks that your pants should cover your knees, when going to church. You don’t have to put on a suit. But apparently, this request is too much to a lot of guys down here. Time to bring back the draft (compulsory military service). It will really help these man-boys grow up.

In the Vatican I can see how wearing shorts would be a problem especially if it’s a city-wide rule. However if you’re dressed nicely in church in the U.S. in whatever city I personally don’t see a problem with it.

I’m going to be honest-- I have talked to backslidden Christian about issues such as this and it was the undertone of “holier than thou” attitude which continued to repel these people from attending church. One guy I knew from high school no longer attends church (hasn’t since he went to college). He didn’t like how he had to dress nicely in order to go to church as a requirement. He never understood why wearing clean, yet nice shorts was such a problem. He saw all of these issues as part of a hypocrisy with Christianity, because many of the people from our graduating class would tout their selves as holy modest churchgoers yet emotionally torment him on the bus. In his mind, where was the modesty?

Modesty is so much more than just about what you wear going to church or in general.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

In the Vatican I can see how wearing shorts would be a problem especially if it’s a city-wide rule. However if you’re dressed nicely in church in the U.S. in whatever city I personally don’t see a problem with it.

I’m going to be honest-- I have talked to backslidden Christian about issues such as this and it was the undertone of “holier than thou” attitude which continued to repel these people from attending church. One guy I knew from high school no longer attends church (hasn’t since he went to college). He didn’t like how he had to dress nicely in order to go to church as a requirement. He never understood why wearing clean, yet nice shorts was such a problem. He saw all of these issues as part of a hypocrisy with Christianity, because many of the people from our graduating class would tout their selves as holy modest churchgoers yet emotionally torment him on the bus. In his mind, where was the modesty?

Modesty is so much more than just about what you wear going to church or in general.

The Vatican enforces this. Churches throughout Italy enforce this. If you show up in shorts, you cannot enter the church. If you show up with your shoulders bare, they will give you something to cover your shoulders. And there are churches in the USA (e.g. Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament, Hanceville, Alabama) that enforce the same rule.

I have my backslidden Christian friends, too. One of them was elated to tell me how he visited a church (probably not a Catholic church) in the Netherlands that served beer in a small hall at the entrance to the main hall. I guess he would be even more elated if the church also served marijuana.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Spunjalebi, does your backslidden Christian acquaintance wear shorts to work? Does he go to visit his doctor in shorts, or to the court, or to a job interview, in shorts?

With work, I will qualify it like this. I’m not talking about someone doing farm work, servicing a car engine, or other jobs where they are not in face-to-face contact with other people. But I have yet to see a customer service representative, front office person, waiter, doctor, pharmacist, or attorney, wearing shorts when dealing with customers. It has to do something with respect for the other person.

So, why would it be acceptable to go meet the Creator of the Universe, and all the Heavenly Hosts participating at Holy Mass, in an attire that doesn’t even cut it for the clerk at my local Tire Kingdom shop to wear, when dealing with his customers?

P.S. Hooters excluded. I have never been to Hooters.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Faithfully wrote:

I agree, I admire that man, and I hope my response to him would be charity and compassion, not eye-rolling and nose-pinching.

I tend to agree with bhall. Now, I don’t think that workout clothes are appropriate for Mass (and neither would I find it appropriate for someone to go to a gym in a three piece suit). However, I think if the alternative is the person not going to Mass at all, then God would prefer that the person go to Mass.

However, Joseph L Varga, I sense a lot of anger in your post, and you make it sound like this woman somehow forced you to sin. Hmm, that reminds me of how Adam tried to excuse his sin to God by blaming Eve…

It’s not just immodesty, but any sin in general. I’d hope we all have the ability to control how we react to sin. I’ve also read posts by people who sit in Mass checking off every nontraditional aspect and get so angry, they probably aren’t in a state to worthily receive, either.

Yeah, I clearly have a problem controlling my anger.

And I don’t know what to do next. The two churches that would be my logical choice based on proximity to where I live upset me almost every time. A third church, the one I first started to attend when I moved to Miami, I also abandoned on this basis. There’s a church downtown in the business district, a beautiful church named Gesu Church, which I love to attend. People there dress modestly, and there’s possibility to go to confession every single day of the week. But parking is expensive there. Yet, I will probably be best off attending Gesu whenever I can. I can park some 1 mile away for free, and walk to Gesu from there.

 

[Serap]

Joseph, don’t be so hard on yourself!!! It’s a reality that our world has degraded itself to a very poor level of judgement on dress and attitude. You are surrounded by it in Miami.

It’s hard.

 

[bhall0689]

But we are talking about people who wear really expensive, and really inappropriate stuff at church.

That’s precisely what I mean! Sitting there and making a discernment on whether “this dress is appropriate or not” and whether it’s “expensive enough” to eliminate financial burden as a reason for dressing shabbily is just not worth it! Judging another’s culpability by the expense and cut of their clothes is WRONG, and I can promise you not something Jesus would be doing. He would be treating these people with love, happy they are in His house to celebrate.

I hope you can find solace in the Mass. Practically, there’s enough people straying away from the Church as it is. If we were to try to enforce some sort of “modesty police,” I’m sure many, many more people would leave.

 

[Serap]

That’s precisely what I mean! Sitting there and making a discernment on whether “this dress is appropriate or not” and whether it’s “expensive enough” to eliminate financial burden as a reason for dressing shabbily is just not worth it! Judging another’s culpability by the expense and cut of their clothes is WRONG, and I can promise you not something Jesus would be doing. He would be treating these people with love, happy they are in His house to celebrate.

I hope you can find solace in the Mass. Practically, there’s enough people straying away from the Church as it is. If we were to try to enforce some sort of “modesty police,” I’m sure many, many more people would leave.

But Joseph is not the son of God and he feels lust even if he doesn’t want to. Joseph doesn’t feel comfortable b/c he’s human.

I’m sure Joseph is still very kind to everyone, but he’s venting on CAF b/c most of us agree that scantily clad women at church is a bit of a distraction whether the clothes are expensive or not.

 

[mommamaree]

Joseph,
I can see how your response to the witnessed immodesty troubles you. It seems like your reaction is more troubling to you than the stimulus that caused the reaction. I think this is a positive sign. God is working in your heart, identifying a stronghold that He wants to break down within you in order to conform you more perfectly to His Son. When you see immodesty or lack of reverence in attire and feel upset by it (whether it is by a female or male), and you feel those unwanted emotions and words rising within you, perhaps you can pray a quick prayer. Try praying that God give you His heart for this person. God wants to help you see this person as He sees them. A saint (sorry, as a new Catholic, I cannot remember which one) was very famous for his response when his fellow brothers would hold up for criticism the behavior of others in his presence. He would always respond “Wouldn’t it be interesting if that person is closer to God than we?” When I read that this past year, I felt so convicted. We cannot possibly judge the contents of a person’s heart. We cannot know where they are on their faith journey. It is true we are called to lovingly correct each other when we witness our brothers and sisters in Christ falling into sin. But this is not the same thing as assuming we know someone’s motivation for doing something that offends or scandalizes. Perhaps they were simply unaware of the consequences of such actions? Or maybe God had been working in their hearts and lives on other areas, and they had not yet felt convicted in that area? God does not expect a lightning change to happen upon conversion. He allows for our weaknesses, our stubbornness, our resistance to change. And He keeps working on us, perfecting us and conforming us to Himself as a lifelong transformative experience. So we should always assume the most charitable things about others, even when we are put in a situation of needing to speak with them about something they are doing that is scandalous.
And I want to be clear, that even as I am sharing these thoughts with you, I am reminding myself. I am just as guilty as anybody with getting angry about witnessing other people sinning or being scandalous. I guess it is just really hard to see past that darn plank in my eye!

 

[Serap]

Joseph,
I can see how your response to the witnessed immodesty troubles you. It seems like your reaction is more troubling to you than the stimulus that caused the reaction. I think this is a positive sign. God is working in your heart, identifying a stronghold that He wants to break down within you in order to conform you more perfectly to His Son. When you see immodesty or lack of reverence in attire and feel upset by it (whether it is by a female or male), and you feel those unwanted emotions and words rising within you, perhaps you can pray a quick prayer. Try praying that God give you His heart for this person. God wants to help you see this person as He sees them. A saint (sorry, as a new Catholic, I cannot remember which one) was very famous for his response when his fellow brothers would hold up for criticism the behavior of others in his presence. He would always respond “Wouldn’t it be interesting if that person is closer to God than we?” When I read that this past year, I felt so convicted. We cannot possibly judge the contents of a person’s heart. We cannot know where they are on their faith journey. It is true we are called to lovingly correct each other when we witness our brothers and sisters in Christ falling into sin. But this is not the same thing as assuming we know someone’s motivation for doing something that offends or scandalizes. Perhaps they were simply unaware of the consequences of such actions? Or maybe God had been working in their hearts and lives on other areas, and they had not yet felt convicted in that area? God does not expect a lightning change to happen upon conversion. He allows for our weaknesses, our stubbornness, our resistance to change. And He keeps working on us, perfecting us and conforming us to Himself as a lifelong transformative experience. So we should always assume the most charitable things about others, even when we are put in a situation of needing to speak with them about something they are doing that is scandalous.
And I want to be clear, that even as I am sharing these thoughts with you, I am reminding myself. I am just as guilty as anybody with getting angry about witnessing other people sinning or being scandalous. I guess it is just really hard to see past that darn plank in my eye!

me too…I can be the biggest hypocrite too.

 

[spunjalebi]

Spunjalebi, does your backslidden Christian acquaintance wear shorts to work? Does he go to visit his doctor in shorts, or to the court, or to a job interview, in shorts?

With work, I will qualify it like this. I’m not talking about someone doing farm work, servicing a car engine, or other jobs where they are not in face-to-face contact with other people. But I have yet to see a customer service representative, front office person, waiter, doctor, pharmacist, or attorney, wearing shorts when dealing with customers. It has to do something with respect for the other person.

So, why would it be acceptable to go meet the Creator of the Universe, and all the Heavenly Hosts participating at Holy Mass, in an attire that doesn’t even cut it for the clerk at my local Tire Kingdom shop to wear, when dealing with his customers?

P.S. Hooters excluded. I have never been to Hooters.

I’ve been to the doctor’s in shorts. I’ve seen men wearing shorts at the doctor’s. My husband wore nice khaki or dark jean shorts to church over the summer. I’ve seen customer service reps wearing nice shorts-- had to be khaki/Docker’s type stuff. I’ve worn dressy Bermudas to church.

I would really urge you to think about why this issue causes so much anger. I’ve seen churches that plainly say “This is a house of God. The following are not allowed: food, drinks, or immodest dress.” And I’ve never seen huge problems with that.

 

[Serap]

I’ve been to the doctor’s in shorts. I’ve seen men wearing shorts at the doctor’s. My husband wore nice khaki or dark jean shorts to church over the summer. I’ve seen customer service reps wearing nice shorts-- had to be khaki/Docker’s type stuff. I’ve worn dressy Bermudas to church.

I would really urge you to think about why this issue causes so much anger. I’ve seen churches that plainly say “This is a house of God. The following are not allowed: food, drinks, or immodest dress.” And I’ve never seen huge problems with that.

Joseph…do you feel picked on by us women

 

[spunjalebi]

Well I am asking that in all seriousness. I have noticed that when Christians feel that certain issues are huge sources of contention, it becomes so big and bad that often it clouds clear thinking and good judgment. I once came across a man who had huge convictions about how he thought women weren’t allowed to cut their hair. My hair at the time was rather short and he pretty much made it obvious that he thought it was wrong. Turns out he was never exposed to women in his family with long hair and it always bothered him, and many of the women he met never had the hair length he liked.

Or I could just be psychoanalyzing this too much. Eh.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

That’s precisely what I mean! Sitting there and making a discernment on whether “this dress is appropriate or not” and whether it’s “expensive enough” to eliminate financial burden as a reason for dressing shabbily is just not worth it! Judging another’s culpability by the expense and cut of their clothes is WRONG, and I can promise you not something Jesus would be doing. He would be treating these people with love, happy they are in His house to celebrate.

I hope you can find solace in the Mass. Practically, there’s enough people straying away from the Church as it is. If we were to try to enforce some sort of “modesty police,” I’m sure many, many more people would leave.

So, is the Pope straying from what Jesus would be doing?

He surely knows, I suppose, that his Swiss Guards are acting now as “modesty police” throughout the Vatican, and not allowing people into the churches or onto the St. Peter Square, for wearing shorts and shoulder-baring tops! Are the Swiss Guards doing the WRONG thing, by judging another’s culpability (well, not really judging culpability, IMO, but preventing them to become culpable in the first place, by trespassing against the dress code), and by stopping them from coming to celebrate in God’s house for something as trivial as wearing shorts? I mean, are the Swiss Guards now being mean spirited and even sinning with the Pope’s full knowledge and approval?

And is the Pope himself sinning against the spirit of love by which Jesus would be treating these people, regardless of whether they were to wear shorts, bikinis, or fig leafs, just being happy that they came to His house to celebrate, even if they came in their birthday suits?

I know that the media used to call Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of Faith as “God’s rottweiler”, because he was as mean-spirited as to not allow the ordination of women priests and the blessing of “gay marriages”. So, is this more of the same on his part, knowing full well that the Swiss Guards play “modesty police” in the Vatican, and churches across Italy do the same, preventing Rihanna and other tourists from entering in shoulder-baring stuff and while wearing mini dresses?

Is the Pope sleeping at the wheel, unaware that the Bishops in Manila (Philippines), Colombo (Sri Lanka) are now enforcing dress codes? That the church associated with Mother Angelica’s convent (Shrine of the Blessed Sacrament, Hanceville, Alabama) does the same? Or is he part of this scheme, aimed to play “modesty police” across the globe, and preventing people from coming into God’s House to celebrate in shorts, spaghetti strap tank tops, swimming trunks, scuba diving suits, bikinis, and birthday suits?

just kidding…

So, here’s God’s rottweiler, now Evil Pope Benedict XVI, who presides over the Swiss Guards’ crackdown on shorts and tank tops, instead of covering (sp?) and hiding under a rock in the wake of the sex abuse scandals, as the secular media so lovingly pointed out…

But wait, there’s more… that bearded monk who self-suggested and hypnotized himself until he grew nail holes in his hands and feet… Padre Pio! Another loveless Catholic male who would scare people by talking to them about Hell, and throwing them out of his confessional if their skirts did not reach so-and-so inches below the knee!

Do you think if he was still alive, Saint Padre Pio would have any of this, people coming in shorts and sports bras, into his confessional, or to the Holy Masses celebrated by him? I mean, the Saint was infamous for his temper and for yelling!!! I would have rather NOT risked his ire, by going into his confessional in shorts!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Joseph…do you feel picked on by us women

Yes… :bighanky:

…and by men in shorts! :bigyikes:

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Well I am asking that in all seriousness. I have noticed that when Christians feel that certain issues are huge sources of contention, it becomes so big and bad that often it clouds clear thinking and good judgment. I once came across a man who had huge convictions about how he thought women weren’t allowed to cut their hair. My hair at the time was rather short and he pretty much made it obvious that he thought it was wrong. Turns out he was never exposed to women in his family with long hair and it always bothered him, and many of the women he met never had the hair length he liked.

Or I could just be psychoanalyzing this too much. Eh.

OK, at the risk of sounding like a broken record…

…the Vatican, the Pope, the Swiss Guard, and the churches in Italy…

I guess you already know the rest of what I was going to say

 

[silentstar]

You might be better off going to the church with the expensive parking where people dress modestly. Maybe you find it frustrating that you’d have to pay for parking due to this, but what will make you feel better over time? Also you mentioned maybe parking a mile or so away and walking to the church. Maybe they have deals on parking where if you get a monthly or yearly pass, it’s less expensive.

I’m not going to say whether you ‘should’ be upset or not, but since you are, maybe the other church is better, unless there is a real problem with walking and/or the parking fees would be a serious financial hardship. And I used to work in DC and know that parking can be really expensive.

 

[spunjalebi]

Or maybe J.V. can do what another poster mentioned, and that would be taking the practical route.

I would imagine most churches have a bulletin which gets distributed every week? Is there any way that at your own particular church, you can write in an anonymous letter asking why there is such a lack of modesty, and what can we do about it? For instance, are people just becoming so unaware of their immodesty that they don’t really think about it? Or that they aren’t truly aware of the rules?

Sometimes church bulletins have to remind people of things which would seem obvious, such as not taking communion if you aren’t Catholic, waiting until after the Mass has ended to leave NOT after taking communion, etc. Even in the last few months, there was a short advice column for Q & A’s (which I daresay, was a clever way to bring up issues to the forefront without offending anyone) where someone had asked why people in church had a tendency to make very loud sounds when putting away the hymnal books. The person asking the question mentioned that the sound was almost a cacophony and it was rather rude. The Q & A person then mentioned that yes, that was true and one thing that we could all do is take better care in putting away the books. A week after during Mass, oh my gosh was putting the books away ever so quiet.