Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[bhall0689]

Wow! It seems as if I’ve really ruffled your feathers! I appreciate the extensive response.

There are many beautiful churches in Italy (I’ve been!), but there are Catholic churches around the world, in every single country. Every single one of those countries is rich, diverse, and has a different standard of modesty and morality. Very little dress is worn in some countries, while very, very (some might say overly) modest dress is worn in others.

The United States is a very BUSY culture, with very, very, very many people of very different financial and social backgrounds. Miami is certainly such a place!

The point is, Joseph, you do not KNOW these peoples financial or social backgrounds. You are too caught up in the law of the matter, like the Pharisees, rather than the spirit of the matter.

I know that the media used to call Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of Faith as “God’s rottweiler”, because he was as mean-spirited as to not allow the ordination of women priests and the blessing of “gay marriages”. So, is this more of the same on his part, knowing full well that the Swiss Guards play “modesty police” in the Vatican, and churches across Italy do the same, preventing Rihanna and other tourists from entering in shoulder-baring stuff and while wearing mini dresses?

What? Why does gay marriage have to enter every Catholic debate?

Frankly, bombastic radicals like you are what drove me away from the Church to begin with. I was raised Catholic all of my life, attended Catholic school all of my life, and like to consider myself educated and spiritual. I’m 21 years old and attending a liberal Catholic college in Austin, Texas. I, however, no longer attend Mass, because of the hypocritical and ‘holier-than-thou’ attitudes I saw in many devotees.

If it’s worth it to you, great. I was exploring the forum in hopes of discovering something I’d overlooked in my 18 years with the Church, but I’m done here. Thank you for your mocking and condescending response.

 

[Serap]

Wow! It seems as if I’ve really ruffled your feathers! I appreciate the extensive response.

There are many beautiful churches in Italy (I’ve been!), but there are Catholic churches around the world, in every single country. Every single one of those countries is rich, diverse, and has a different standard of modesty and morality. Very little dress is worn in some countries, while very, very (some might say overly) modest dress is worn in others.

The United States is a very BUSY culture, with very, very, very many people of very different financial and social backgrounds. Miami is certainly such a place!

The point is, Joseph, you do not KNOW these peoples financial or social backgrounds. You are too caught up in the law of the matter, like the Pharisees, rather than the spirit of the matter.

What? Why does gay marriage have to enter every Catholic debate?

Frankly, bombastic radicals like you are what drove me away from the Church to begin with. I was raised Catholic all of my life, attended Catholic school all of my life, and like to consider myself educated and spiritual. I’m 21 years old and attending a liberal Catholic college in Austin, Texas. I, however, no longer attend Mass, because of the hypocritical and ‘holier-than-thou’ attitudes I saw in many devotees.

If it’s worth it to you, great. I was exploring the forum in hopes of discovering something I’d overlooked in my 18 years with the Church, but I’m done here. Thank you for your mocking and condescending response.

I don’t agree with everything Joseph says but don’t compare him to a Pharisee b/c he is actually a very nice man who has admitted that maybe he’s being “silly” already.

I don’t think he was trying to mock you. You are an intelligent person and coming here was great. No matter where you go you will find all different types of attitudes everywhere. So if you like the Catholic church, you don’t have to like all of it’s people. There are nice and mean people everywhere, including the church. Don’t let it chase you away.

You are too intelligent to fall for that. It’s easy to let the devil feed your resentments and chase you away. Jesus wouldn’t want you to leave. He would be very sad b/c he loves you.

 

[mommamaree]

Joseph,
I mentioned this in my last response to you, but after reading your most recent posts, I feel that maybe I didn’t explain it clearly enough. So I’ll try to be more clear here.
Responding to impropriety (mistaken or purposeful) and informing the person that they have made a mistake is not the same thing as judging a person’s “culpability” or, as I prefer to say, their motivation. We cannot know what is in a person’s mind or heart, and we are warned against assuming that we can judge another person. Only God knows the heart. What we CAN do is go to the person who is committing an offense and inform them of their error and the potential scandal they may cause. But we should do this with humility and charity.
As an example, several times posters have mentioned the idea of typing up a kind but firm little article to place in the church bulletin. This would be a good way to inform people without shaming them. What we CANNOT do is assume the person is doing it on purpose, nor can we blame them for our angry reaction. Of course, some people will ignore the bulletin announcement, just as people everywhere oftentimes prefer to continue in scandal and sin rather than amend their lives. This is where the pastor of the church must step in, not a fellow parishioner.
I hope you are able to overcome this temptation. I know how challenging lack of modesty issues are, and especially for men. But you are being given an opportunity here to continue in building Christian virtue. Any time a temptation is repeatedly placed before us, we can go to our Lord and receive the grace we need to perservere and that helps us grow in virtue. Saying a prayer for you, Joseph…

 

[MotherNoRest]

This is gonna be good! Let the heated debate begin!

btw…I was wearing skin tight pants and a skin tight halter top when my husband met me and he fell in-love with me and married me. It took him a month before he even tried to kiss me and I wore mini skirts, low waisted jeans, tight tops and heals on every date.

Gosh, you sound proud of your sleazy dress. How many other men noticed and were thinking thoughts they should not be thinking? You affect others by the way you dress. Will you teach your precious daughter to dress in “heels, tight, low-waist jeans and halter tops.” I hope not, for her sake.

Whatever you think of the posts/posters here, it doesn’t matter. How does Jesus view that sort of dress? Would his mother have walked around in that attire?

 

[spunjalebi]

I think Serap may have been a little tongue-in-cheek here. I don’t think wearing high heels, halter tops, or low-waisted pants necessarily means one was dressing sleazily. Most of the pants nowadays are low-waisted and it’s almost impossible to find high-waisted unless you want to look ridiculous, or even mid-rise jeans. Heels are worn almost everywhere-- I see girls at my university wearing heels with jeans and sweaters. And halter tops aren’t necessarily immodest, as long as you’re looking for the correct fit and coverage. I have a halter top that ties by the neck, exposes some back, but is high cut in the front. I’m just saying.

I think the question of whether the Holy Mother would have walked around in that attire is moot, considering the fact that at that time, women were required to cover their hair all the time and wore Islamic-style clothing.

 

[mommamaree]

Gosh, you sound proud of your sleazy dress. How many other men noticed and were thinking thoughts they should not be thinking? You affect others by the way you dress. Will you teach your precious daughter to dress in “heels, tight, low-waist jeans and halter tops.” I hope not, for her sake.

Whatever you think of the posts/posters here, it doesn’t matter. How does Jesus view that sort of dress? Would his mother have walked around in that attire?

This is not a fair thing to say to Serap. She has contributed many good things to this discussion. Many of us women who have participated in this discussion have admitted our past mistakes with our wardrobe choices. Serap is a good mother and is very encouraging to other mothers here.
When I met my husband, I often wore short shorts, tank tops, and wedge espadrilles, all to make the most of my tall lean frame. Does that make me sleazy? No, it makes me naive and foolish. But my parents, despite being Baptists, never told me about modest dress appropriate for Christian ladies. I had to learn the hard way on my own, after experiencing the leering and inappropriate comments directed my way from older men. I fully intend to raise my daughter(s) with far more common sense and understanding of biblical womanhood than how I was raised.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Um, I don’t think Serap is boasting about the way she dressed for dates. I think her point is that even though she dressed in a way many here would consider “sleazy” or immoral, her husband did not treat her with any less respect than, I assume, he’d treat, say, a nun dressed in a full habit (well, other than the dating, kissing, and marrying part). In other posts, she has written about men who did assume she was a “bad girl” and pressured her for sex, etc. I think her point is that it’s not inevitable that a man treats a scantily clad woman with disrespect, and I agree.

As I’ve noted before, it seems that modesty discussions often wind up being very uncharitable in regard to women who dress a certain way, as if they are purposefully trying to entice men around them to lust and sin. It also seems that by doing so, men can take themselves off the hook and say “Look, these sinful women are tempting me at every turn, there’s no way I can be pure!” And it seems many men, once they’ve labeled a woman as a “bad girl”, use this as an excuse to treat her with disrespect, or to treat her differently than a “good girl”. I think the question is, is that justifiable? Or should a man treat every woman with respect?

For example, the New York Jets football team has unfortunately been in the news lately due to inappropriate behavior toward women by current and former players. In one case, a female reporter went into the locker room and was greeted with very immature behavior (laughing, hooting, etc). I read about this on some sports blogs and many people thought the players had done nothing wrong, that the reporter “asked for it” both by going into the locker room and from the way she dressed. Now, I’m sure some people would argue that it is indeed inappropriate for a woman to enter a male locker room, even though that’s been allowed in the pro sports world for a while where female reporters are concerned. And male pro athletes (even those who claim to be Christian) aren’t really notorious for being chaste. But even in the secular world, the athletes were disciplined and the Jets team had to pay for sexual-harassment training for the whole league. So, the idea that the way a woman dresses automatically excuses disrespect, I think, is really not cool.

 

[spunjalebi]

Absolutely right ToeintheWater. Much of the attitudes which are still in existence are “a girl like that doesn’t deserve to be treated with respect.” If men were taught that no matter how badly a woman was dressed, she deserved respect a lot of these issues wouldn’t be so bad. And it would actually give ill-clad women the impression that they are worthy of respect and don’t need to dress like a lady of the night in order to get a man’s attention.

Immodestly dressed women aren’t the only ones who experience this. A girl I work with at school recently went to a country close to the Middle East and was dressed for their culture-- no shorts, long skirts, long dresses, at least 3/4 sleeved tops, etc. She told me that after a couple weeks of being there, she couldn’t stand the degrading cat calls anymore. She felt that even if she had walked around wearing an abaya it wouldn’t have mattered. Really sad.

 

[mommamaree]

Immodestly dressed women aren’t the only ones who experience this. A girl I work with at school recently went to a country close to the Middle East and was dressed for their culture-- no shorts, long skirts, long dresses, at least 3/4 sleeved tops, etc. She told me that after a couple weeks of being there, she couldn’t stand the degrading cat calls anymore. She felt that even if she had walked around wearing an abaya it wouldn’t have mattered. Really sad.

This is so sad. :sad_yes: And it demonstrates how much of the disrespect shown to women has its roots in the attitudes of men, and in what they perceive women’s value and dignity to be. Many times I have thanked God to have been born and raised in the Midwest U.S., and I am again reminded of just how lucky I was. I am also very thankful to be raising my children in a small Southern town, where people tend to be rather more respectful and friendly with each other. Why, just last week, I was at Wal-Mart, of all places, and I was about to load my car with my cartful of groceries. A man who worked there, and was out collecting carts, rushed over and invited me to relax in my car because there was no way he was going to let me lift the heavy bags into my trunk (I am nine months pregnant). I was stunned at his chivalry and I’ll tell you, it made my day! That is part of what we have lost in our culture at large, but there are a few holdouts that insist upon gentlemanly behavior for themselves and set a good example. That is how my husband is, and it is how we intend to raise our son(s).

 

[PaulinVA]

I was stunned at his chivalry and I’ll tell you, it made my day! That is part of what we have lost in our culture at large, but there are a few holdouts that insist upon gentlemanly behavior for themselves and set a good example. That is how my husband is, and it is how we intend to raise our son(s).

Well, I agree with you completely.

However, many of your fellow women and many men do not agree with us. In their quest for “equality” many women would find that incident of chivalry insulting. Since woman have joined the workforce, men and women are now competitors for the same jobs, so, for some men, chivalry is dead.

 

[MotherNoRest]

I do not have time to read all these posts, but get the gist of this thread. I am a woman and fully agree with the immodesty problem. I am mom to 9 (and maybe soon 10) boys. I see them struggle with purity. It is very disturbing to take them to mass to try to steep them in God and focus on their relationship with God when a few young girls choose to sit right in front of us with skin tight pants and bras showing through their skin tight shirts. It is not fair to the young men. Holy mass should be a refuge from the world. Women who defend immodest dress and say it is the man’s problem and so on can’t let go of their preferred modes of dress or perhaps cannot enforce it with their own daughters and have caved in.

Additionally, I noticed a post about breastfeeding and got the impression that is some “sick bozo” with “sick thoughts” who might think inappropriately in the face of breastfeeding. One woman said she normally uses a blanket but her older infants would not tolerate it. I would like to note here that a very holy priest who brought beauty back to our mass and lovely statues in our church and who was beloved by our congregation once pulled a mom aside and asked her to please stop nursing in the first pew. As I recall, she nursed discreetly but not without a blanket and our relatively young priest, trying to be faithful to his vows, found it distracting as he celebrated mass, because of what the activity with the breast brought to his mind. I do not believe he is a sick bozo - he is still a faithful priest in our diocese.

Women need to be sensitive to the plight of men and how difficult it is to remain pure. For some it is a bigger struggle - not a fault of their own, but because God has given them a greater struggle as a cross.

Women need to be aware and stop selfishly defending the right to dress however they want.

 

[Serap]

This is not a fair thing to say to Serap. She has contributed many good things to this discussion. Many of us women who have participated in this discussion have admitted our past mistakes with our wardrobe choices. Serap is a good mother and is very encouraging to other mothers here.
When I met my husband, I often wore short shorts, tank tops, and wedge espadrilles, all to make the most of my tall lean frame. Does that make me sleazy? No, it makes me naive and foolish. But my parents, despite being Baptists, never told me about modest dress appropriate for Christian ladies. I had to learn the hard way on my own, after experiencing the leering and inappropriate comments directed my way from older men. I fully intend to raise my daughter(s) with far more common sense and understanding of biblical womanhood than how I was raised.

I could just kiss your beautiful pregnant belly

Yes, I was young and foolish. My father abused me (that way - yes very sad) and I had very little self-respect. I learned it over time.

I will teach my daugther otherwise. I now know better.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Wow! It seems as if I’ve really ruffled your feathers! I appreciate the extensive response.

There are many beautiful churches in Italy (I’ve been!), but there are Catholic churches around the world, in every single country. Every single one of those countries is rich, diverse, and has a different standard of modesty and morality. Very little dress is worn in some countries, while very, very (some might say overly) modest dress is worn in others.

The United States is a very BUSY culture, with very, very, very many people of very different financial and social backgrounds. Miami is certainly such a place!

The point is, Joseph, you do not KNOW these peoples financial or social backgrounds. You are too caught up in the law of the matter, like the Pharisees, rather than the spirit of the matter.

What? Why does gay marriage have to enter every Catholic debate?

Frankly, bombastic radicals like you are what drove me away from the Church to begin with. I was raised Catholic all of my life, attended Catholic school all of my life, and like to consider myself educated and spiritual. I’m 21 years old and attending a liberal Catholic college in Austin, Texas. I, however, no longer attend Mass, because of the hypocritical and ‘holier-than-thou’ attitudes I saw in many devotees.

If it’s worth it to you, great. I was exploring the forum in hopes of discovering something I’d overlooked in my 18 years with the Church, but I’m done here. Thank you for your mocking and condescending response.

Bhall0689, just in case you read this: Sorry if my post came through as mocking and condescending. It was not my intent to mock you or to treat you condescendingly. I was just trying to inject some humor into my point but I obviously failed to achieve my purpose. Again, please accept my sincere apologies.

I will try to re-phrase my point like this: we, as Catholic laity, do not make the rules. It is not my role, and not your role, to make up the rules. It is the Catholic Bishops, lead by the Pope, who make the rules. Our role as laypeople is simply to listen to our Pope and to our Bishops, as if Jesus Christ himself was speaking to us, and to do our best to obey those rules. The Pope and the Bishops have spoken clearly. We are supposed to be covered from the shoulders down to the knees when visiting Catholic churches. Frankly, it doesn’t matter whether you or I like these rules, or whether we dislike them. Our duty, as laypeople, is to educate ourselves of what God, through His representatives, namely the Bishops in union with the Pope, expects from us, and to wholeheartedly follow those teachings.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Joseph,
I mentioned this in my last response to you, but after reading your most recent posts, I feel that maybe I didn’t explain it clearly enough. So I’ll try to be more clear here.
Responding to impropriety (mistaken or purposeful) and informing the person that they have made a mistake is not the same thing as judging a person’s “culpability” or, as I prefer to say, their motivation. We cannot know what is in a person’s mind or heart, and we are warned against assuming that we can judge another person. Only God knows the heart. What we CAN do is go to the person who is committing an offense and inform them of their error and the potential scandal they may cause. But we should do this with humility and charity.
As an example, several times posters have mentioned the idea of typing up a kind but firm little article to place in the church bulletin. This would be a good way to inform people without shaming them. What we CANNOT do is assume the person is doing it on purpose, nor can we blame them for our angry reaction. Of course, some people will ignore the bulletin announcement, just as people everywhere oftentimes prefer to continue in scandal and sin rather than amend their lives. This is where the pastor of the church must step in, not a fellow parishioner.
I hope you are able to overcome this temptation. I know how challenging lack of modesty issues are, and especially for men. But you are being given an opportunity here to continue in building Christian virtue. Any time a temptation is repeatedly placed before us, we can go to our Lord and receive the grace we need to perservere and that helps us grow in virtue. Saying a prayer for you, Joseph…

Mommamaree, thanks for your kind words and for your prayer. I think, I just received a small portion of that bitter cup that Jesus had to drink, looking at our sins, and in that particular instance I didn’t handle it well. The feelings of anger, the sadness, the bitterness, I think they are not the problem. They are just natural reactions to the scandal that’s all around us. The problem is that I was not able to channel those emotions correctly. The problem is that I lost control and started swearing under my breath. I did not have the magnanimity of Jesus Christ who prayed for his own executioners, saying, “forgive them, Father, for they don’t know what they are doing”. So, I have plenty of room for improvement. And I do plan to channel those gut reactions into constructive action.

 

[spunjalebi]

Women need to be aware and stop selfishly defending the right to dress however they want.

Most Christian women are aware, and most Christian women don’t selfishly defend the right to wear “whatever” they want. However, it’s the few Christian women who do who cause the rest of us to deal with the consequences. It’s the whole one bad apple spoils the rest of the bunch.

One thing we need to remember is that this issue is twofold: while there are people out there dressing inappropriately looking for that attention, there are also people who dress appropriately yet get negative attention.

Oh yeah speaking of this issue I can remember a very ironic comment that I’ve heard guys say: when a woman covers up it leaves more to the imagination. What?? So either way, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. I don’t want to be covering up so some guy can use his “imagination” more.

 

[faithfully]

One thing we need to remember is that this issue is twofold: while there are people out there dressing inappropriately looking for that attention, there are also people who dress appropriately yet get negative attention.

Oh yeah speaking of this issue I can remember a very ironic comment that I’ve heard guys say: when a woman covers up it leaves more to the imagination. What?? So either way, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. I don’t want to be covering up so some guy can use his “imagination” more.

I was just writing something about this… and just couldn’t get the words right. But here goes. I used to work in “professional casual” office. Meaning, if we didn’t have clients coming in jeans were fine. Clients = dress up. And only if you’re in the meeting…

So, normally I wore jeans. Then one day, I needed to dress up. So I wore a really pretty dress. Sleeves to the elbow, length to mid calf, v-neck NO cleavage. Hair up. Absolutely appropriate for Church. And it was the first time that I had to endure the open mouthed head to toe gawking of my bosses. Yeah, it was uncomfy. There were comments. Nothing gross. But basically gets to the point of “leaving more to the imagination…” and you have to actually watch the clicking and grinding… blech! Quite frankly, I’d just rather watch your eyes bug out if I’m in a short skirt… as opposed to watching you undress me. It’s more invasive… a bit violating… Weird huh?

 

[masha]

So, is the Pope straying from what Jesus would be doing?

He surely knows, I suppose, that his Swiss Guards are acting now as “modesty police” throughout the Vatican, and not allowing people into the churches or onto the St. Peter Square, for wearing shorts and shoulder-baring tops! Are the Swiss Guards doing the WRONG thing, by judging another’s culpability (well, not really judging culpability, IMO, but preventing them to become culpable in the first place, by trespassing against the dress code), and by stopping them from coming to celebrate in God’s house for something as trivial as wearing shorts? I mean, are the Swiss Guards now being mean spirited and even sinning with the Pope’s full knowledge and approval?

Joseph,

I think you are right in that we do have not only the right, but really the responsibility to judge what we see. At Liturgy, if we notice clothing, we are naturally going to make a judgement call: “the see-through dress & bikini combo is immodest, and wrong for the Liturgy. It should never have been worn to Church.” If anyone either can’t or won’t make this judgement call, they’re are failing in training them selves to understand virtue. At the same time, we can’t make a judgement call about the person wearing the immodest clothing. She may be striving after an undeveloped and misguided modesty, she may be lost, she may have put on the dress in the dark, never noticing it was see-though. My point is, you shouldn’t be afraid to say “these people are dressing immodestly” but you should avoid jumping to the conclusion that “these people are immodest.”

You should also avoid allowing the obvious, immodest dress all around you to intrude on your inner-self. You are worshipping God, whether they are as well is not your concern. You can rejoice with Christ that they are (hopefully) on their way back to Him, and weep with Him that they chose to present themselves to Him as they did (because, honestly, as thrilled as I’m sure He is that they came, you know Jesus is just a bit ticked off that they came dresses awfully. Remember the wedding garment story in the Gospels).

Blessings, and good luck down there!

 

[MotherNoRest]

Most Christian women are aware, and most Christian women don’t selfishly defend the right to wear “whatever” they want. However, it’s the few Christian women who do who cause the rest of us to deal with the consequences. It’s the whole one bad apple spoils the rest of the bunch.

One thing we need to remember is that this issue is twofold: while there are people out there dressing inappropriately looking for that attention, there are also people who dress appropriately yet get negative attention.

Oh yeah speaking of this issue I can remember a very ironic comment that I’ve heard guys say: when a woman covers up it leaves more to the imagination. What?? So either way, we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t. I don’t want to be covering up so some guy can use his “imagination” more.

Most young Catholic/Christian girls nowadays do dress inappropriately. That’s a fact. I am speaking about teenagers and young adults. I’ve seen them engage in the dress of the culture quite commonly. I am acutely aware raising 9 boys.

I would not use that comment to say “we’re damned if we don’t” regarding leaving more to the imagination. Modest dress is better, period. There’s no debate.

Sleazy dress is what serap described and she seemed proud of it. I commented on that. I didn’t read all the posts, don’t know how she dresses now. How on earth could I be judging her presently - I only read the one comment by her.

Immodest dress doesn’t belong in church, ever. Modest dress is always better and more appropriate. Women who dress with tight, revealing clothes look sleazy - whether they consider themselves that or not. I’m surprised a no-brainer has elicited such a long conversation.

 

[Serap]

Most young Catholic/Christian girls nowadays do dress inappropriately. That’s a fact. I am speaking about teenagers and young adults. I’ve seen them engage in the dress of the culture quite commonly. I am acutely aware raising 9 boys.

I would not use that comment to say “we’re damned if we don’t” regarding leaving more to the imagination. Modest dress is better, period. There’s no debate.

Sleazy dress is what serap described and she seemed proud of it. I commented on that. I didn’t read all the posts, don’t know how she dresses now. How on earth could I be judging her presently - I only read the one comment by her.

Immodest dress doesn’t belong in church, ever. Modest dress is always better and more appropriate. Women who dress with tight, revealing clothes look sleazy - whether they consider themselves that or not. I’m surprised a no-brainer has elicited such a long conversation.

You were given the chance to explain yourself and many other posters defended me and you chose to be uncharitable again.

I was never proud of my dress and I was never dressed sleazy so you stop judging me!

 

[CountrySinger]

You were given the chance to explain yourself and many other posters defended me and you chose to be uncharitable again.

I was never proud of my dress and I was never dressed sleazy so you stop judging me!

Don’t worry about MotherNoRest. If I had 9(!) boys and no rest, I would be frustrated too. And probably be busy starting a baseball team. This was my poor attempt at humor, there was no insult meant to anyone.

Keep doing what you are doing. You are always so kind and willing to defend me.