Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[EasterJoy]

A woman can dress modesty and very attractively without looking dowdy or frumpy. It all depends upon the effort she wants to put into it. I may be wrong, but at times I think most women just don’t want to make the effort - easier to go with the flow. The problem is that the flow, just like water, doesn’t flow up to heaven, but down to the other place.

Yes, and a woman can ride a horse without putting pants on, too. The problem is, the “effort” required is a side saddle, which is less safe for both the rider and the animal. So…should the woman and horse be put in danger, should women be forbidden the pleasure of riding a horse, or should men be able to keep their tongues in their mouths when they see a woman wearing clothes that are no more than what is suitable for what she is doing? (Yes, a side saddle can be ridden safely, but it does require far more care than what is required for methods that allow one to ride astride the horse.)

IOW, I agree with your general concept–actually, I don’t see that “very attractive” is high on the priority list compared to modesty and safety for a woman and a beast–but there are those who take the idea to preposterous lengths.

 

[bhall0689]

Yes, and a woman can ride a horse without putting pants on, too. The problem is, the “effort” required is a side saddle, which is less safe for both the rider and the animal. So…should the woman and horse be put in danger, should women be forbidden the pleasure of riding a horse, or should men be able to keep their tongues in their mouths when they see a woman wearing clothes that are no more than what is suitable for what she is doing? (Yes, a side saddle can be ridden safely, but it does require far more care than what is required for methods that allow one to ride astride the horse.)

IOW, I agree with your general concept–actually, I don’t see that “very attractive” is high on the priority list compared to modesty and safety for a woman and a beast–but there are those who take the idea to preposterous lengths.

Even though I have not spoken for several (if not more!) pages, I have been following this thread silently. EasterJoy, even though I am not Catholic I would like to praise you for the insight you add to to the discussion. I can see that you are a devout Catholic, and we believe different things, but you are a true Christian. True Christians have a special way of looking at and thinking about things subjectively and with love, and explaining them to other. Pope John Paul II was the ultimate example that I have witnessed in my lifetime, and can of course think of many more “normal” people who have touched me.

Anyways, thank you for your kindness and insight.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I’ve been reading this for a while too after I stopped posting in it, and it reminds me of the Aesop’s fable about the man and his son taking a donkey to market. They start out walking beside the donkey, but then they come across people who laugh at them at walking when there’s surely room for at least the boy to ride the donkey. So the man puts his son on the donkey. Then they come across some people who criticize the son for riding the donkey while letting his poor old man walk. So they switch places. But then they come across someone who says it’s cruel for the man to ride the donkey and make his poor child walk. So they both get on the donkey, only to come across someone who says its cruel to the donkey. Anyway, they wind up carrying the donkey who of course doesn’t like this at all and thrashes about, and at the end all three of them wind up ditched in a stream when the donkey gets loose while they are crossing a bridge. Point being that these two were so concerned about what other people thought and trying to get everyone to agree with their actions that they wind up acting very foolishly.

I actually think I dress modestly myself though a lot of that is because I live in a fairly cold climate. I don’t like low-necked shirts or mini skirts. I don’t wear tight clothes because I’m on the overweight side. However, I know that some people will judge me as immodest because I almost always wear pants especially in the winter, because I don’t like pantyhose that I’d have to wear under skirts to keep warm then.

I am not saying I think men or women should have license to dress however they like. However, from some posts in this topic, I get the idea that if a woman is in a room with 100 men, that unless all 100 men are completely free of any unchaste thought toward her, that if even one man looks upon her with lust, she must have been dressed inappropriately. It’s almost like there’s an assumption that there must be some magic combination of clothes that is guaranteed to be 100% lust-proof, and that all women are responsible for finding out what that is. I find such a standard to be just as silly as the Aesop’s tale I wrote about.

 

[spunjalebi]

It’s almost like there’s an assumption that there must be some magic combination of clothes that is guaranteed to be 100% lust-proof, and that all women are responsible for finding out what that is. I find such a standard to be just as silly as the Aesop’s tale I wrote about.

I think they’re called burkahs…but oh yeah that’s right, even women in fundamentalist Islamic countries still get raped and blamed for being temptresses.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was thinking this morning that the times I have worn pants that were too tight did not come from a vanity that desired to display my behind too obviously when I bought the pants in the first place, but from the vanity that denied I had gained enough weight so that this was what I was doing when I was still wearing them “X” pounds later!

 

[spunjalebi]

I was thinking this morning that the times I have worn pants that were too tight did not come from a vanity that desired to display my behind too obviously when I bought the pants in the first place, but from the vanity that denied I had gained enough weight so that this was what I was doing when I was still wearing them “X” pounds later!

Oh my gosh, I do that all the time! I can’t accept the fact that I have to buy new jeans at times, because it can get very expensive. Lately I’ve been traipsing around in sweats and baggy pants.

 

[BlueSprite]

I think they’re called burkahs…but oh yeah that’s right, even women in fundamentalist Islamic countries still get raped and blamed for being temptresses.

Exactly.

The sad notion here is that in such cultures, the women must cover themselves up entirely, thus implying, that men are incapable of controlling themselves; (as if a mere glance of an ankle or elbow could send them over the edge). Yet oddly enough in such cultures, men control* everything*. Which strikes me as odd…to place those you view as without control, in control.

But where do we draw the line? At what point do we go from common-sense to burkahs…or on the opposite side of the spectrum, nudist colonies? That’s what I wanna know.

I think what determines dress to be appropriate, is culturally defined. Because the US is so varied, and because lately we see such an amalgam of cultures being represented, we experience a lot of friction as to what is or is not appropriate. It’s hard to agree with one’s neighbor, when one’s neighbor has a completely different set of cultural rules (aka value system) that they follow.

And to further complicate matters there are subsets within cultures, and of course stratification within families themselves! Is this part of modern-day life? The lack of cohesion?

But I digress…

 

[EasterJoy]

Oh my gosh, I do that all the time! I can’t accept the fact that I have to buy new jeans at times, because it can get very expensive. Lately I’ve been traipsing around in sweats and baggy pants.

No, I just meant that I am afraid that my jeans only “show it off” when “it” has gotten to the point that it is no longer a thing anyone would consider a point of pride!

(I suppose I should be thankful that this time I was too slothful to give the bigger-sized pants away to the poor!)

 

[BlueShadow123]

I’m surprised this thread is still going, lol! I know I posted in here before, but I think common sense tells what modesty is. Everybody knows what society sees as sexual and what could come off as a little ‘showy’. So, like I said, I think it has to do with common sense, too. However I don’t see any problem with people wearing less clothes in the summer. Notice i said less clothes not no clothes. Just don’t want anybody getting that confused.

 

[spunjalebi]

Exactly.

The sad notion here is that in such cultures, the women must cover themselves up entirely, thus implying, that men are incapable of controlling themselves; (as if a mere glance of an ankle or elbow could send them over the edge). Yet oddly enough in such cultures, men control* everything*. Which strikes me as odd…to place those you view as without control, in control.

And I think that’s also where the respect aspect comes in. People should be respectful of others no matter what they are wearing. Cultures which follow similar standards as I had described tend to have “respect grades” for women especially. Give 100% of your respect to the women who cover up everything and bend over backwards to make sure a man doesn’t look of have lustful thoughts, but that woman whose curves are sticking out just a tad too much? Knock it down to 75%. And oh yeah, those girls who dress scantily only need 25% or less.

Just because we give respect does not mean we approve. We give respect because everyone’s body is a temple and because everyone is created in the image of God. That’s why I even say “excuse me,” to the homeless guy on the bus when I need room to move, even though he smells unpleasant and looks very disheveled. Pushing him over or walking on his feet to get to my destination may accomplish my goal, but it doesn’t exactly look great to God.

 

[spunjalebi]

Exactly.

The sad notion here is that in such cultures, the women must cover themselves up entirely, thus implying, that men are incapable of controlling themselves; (as if a mere glance of an ankle or elbow could send them over the edge). Yet oddly enough in such cultures, men control* everything*. Which strikes me as odd…to place those you view as without control, in control.

And I think that’s also where the respect aspect comes in. People should be respectful of others no matter what they are wearing. Cultures which follow similar standards as I had described tend to have “respect grades” for women especially. Give 100% of your respect to the women who cover up everything and bend over backwards to make sure a man doesn’t look of have lustful thoughts, but that woman whose curves are sticking out just a tad too much? Knock it down to 75%. And oh yeah, those girls who dress scantily only need 25% or less.

A girl who I referenced a page earlier or so in this thread was in an Islamic country near the Middle East and dressed in a manner which was appropriate for their level of modesty. Yet she was cat-called, whistled at, and called names simply because she was an American Caucasian woman. So those men there decided based on that, they were only going to give her some of their respect, even though she even went out of her way to abide by their cultural standards, and even covered her hair in public.

Just because we give respect does not mean we approve. We give respect because everyone’s body is a temple and because everyone is created in the image of God. That’s why I even say “excuse me,” to the homeless guy on the bus when I need room to move, even though he smells unpleasant and looks very disheveled. Pushing him over or walking on his feet to get to my destination may accomplish my goal, but it doesn’t exactly look great to God.

 

[EasterJoy]

And I think that’s also where the respect aspect comes in. People should be respectful of others no matter what they are wearing. Cultures which follow similar standards as I had described tend to have “respect grades” for women especially. Give 100% of your respect to the women who cover up everything and bend over backwards to make sure a man doesn’t look of have lustful thoughts, but that woman whose curves are sticking out just a tad too much? Knock it down to 75%. And oh yeah, those girls who dress scantily only need 25% or less.

Just because we give respect does not mean we approve. We give respect because everyone’s body is a temple and because everyone is created in the image of God. That’s why I even say “excuse me,” to the homeless guy on the bus when I need room to move, even though he smells unpleasant and looks very disheveled. Pushing him over or walking on his feet to get to my destination may accomplish my goal, but it doesn’t exactly look great to God.

There is no amount of clothing that will keep a man from giving himself permission to be a cad. Some men will not treat any woman poorly for any reason, some will not treat any woman as a full human being, but rather as an object, no matter what she does or looks like, and some have “categories” of women, a situation where they feel entitled to “deny” or “grant” respect.

Of course culture has to be taken into account, because there is a locally-understood message that this dress or that carries with it, but this is why modest dress is best done to please God and protect virtue, and cannot be gauged by exactly what reaction someone else feels entitled to have. There is no winning that little game.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I did some search on what our Church teaches about proper attire when visiting churches, and at Holy Mass. And by our teachers I mean the Bishops, because our teachers are our Bishops, in union with the Pope.

Here’s an essay by Bishop Robert Vasa (Baker, Oregon). He discusses proper dress in the context of proper disposition, attitude, and respect for the place (God’s house) and for the event (Holy Mass), which includes silence - silence is almost as often violated in our churches as the dress code. I only quote the part where he starts to talk about dress code in the Catholic Church, but the whole essay is well worth reading (see link to website).

Question: would we feel offended if our Priests, our Bishops, our Pope showed up in shorts and tank tops, to celebrate the Holy Mass? And if the answer is yes, how do we dare to show up in shorts and tank tops?

adoremus.org/11-00-vasa.html

Dress, Demeanor, Discipline
Show how We Value Holy Mass

by Bishop Robert Vasa

Several years ago I had the opportunity, while visiting Washington, DC, to observe the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery.

…

I have reflected repeatedly on the Arlington experience as it relates to what we do in our Catholic Churches. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most significant event in the world.

…

Several years ago, the Holy Father reinstituted a dress code for the churches of Rome, his diocese. No one in shorts or sleeveless shirts was to be admitted into the church building.

An American sense of rights and freedom rebels against such rules, calling them absurdities. Yet it was done and it was enforced. Tourists who had traveled across an ocean to see a church were turned back at the door unless they were properly attired. This was only to visit a church while no other liturgical action was going on. The Holy Father saw a need to institute a policy aimed at restoring, in a very concrete way, a proper sense of reverence for the house of God.

I have often heard the argument that the administrators of churches should be pleased to see that people come, regardless of how they are dressed. The other side of that is that people need to demonstrate in word and deed the proper disposition and attitude. I am certain the American people would be rightfully chagrined if the guard at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier were to show up in plaid shorts, a tank top and half-laced tennis shoes. It is hard to imagine that he could have a proper interior attitude to the job at hand were he to come to “work” dressed like that.

Our liturgy is a sacred “work”. How we come to that work is probably as important as the fact that we come. We must recognize that we come to church for sacred work, sacred worship. This demands a decorum commensurate with the dignity of the work to be done. Even if that “work” is to utter a private prayer, it still demands an appropriate decorum.

The soldiers at Arlington know the sacredness of the work which they do. Their dress, their demeanor, their discipline all speak of their recognition of that sacredness. Seeing them is a source of pride for me.

I am proud of what they represent, proud of the values which their discipline bespeaks, proud of the country which at heart still knows that honor and fidelity are worth defending.

For these values people live, and for these values people give their lives. The dress and demeanor of these troops says that they truly honor and respect the life and death of those represented at the Tomb of the Unknown.

Catholics likewise need to know the sacredness of the liturgical “work” which they do. Their dress, their demeanor, their discipline, ought all to speak of their recognition of that sacredness.

Seeing the dress and demeanor of Catholics in Church ought to be a source of pride. They ought to manifest a genuine respect for Jesus present, as well as for the values of the Catholic Church. For these values, saints, declared and not declared, gave their lives; for these values each Catholic must be willing to dress in a fashion which shows recognition and respect.

Bishop Vasa, a native of Lincoln, Nebraska, was made bishop of the Diocese of Baker, Oregon, in 1999.

This essay originally appeared in the Catholic Sentinel June 30, 2000.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

The assay by Bishop Robert Vasa also addresses the logical fallacy that we should be pleased to see that people came at all, no matter how they are dressed, and that they should be admitted to church when not dressed properly. The Bishop, and the Holy Father, obviously don’t think that such laxity should be allowed in our churches.

 

[spunjalebi]

JLV, I don’t know what it’s going to take for you to understand that if people show up to church in shorts, it doesn’t mean they are purposefully being disrespectful. If a church has specific rules however about attire, such as the Vatican does, then yes people should abide by the rules and not wear shorts. However here in the Midwest of the U.S., if men wear nice, clean clothes and they involve shorts, I’m personally not going to throw a hissy fit.

And furthermore, it seems you are purposefully ignoring the various circumstances which can cause people to show up to church in less than “perfect” attire. My husband while working labor-intensive jobs refused to allow his work interfere with attending Mass on Holy Days of Obligation, even if that meant rushing to church after work wearing his grubby sweater, t-shirt, or jeans. Are YOU going to be so bold to tell someone they shouldn’t bother attending church because you don’t like what they wear? If so, I believe your problem exists much deeper than what appearances show, and is something with your heart. Make this right with God before you drive everyone crazy. Thank you.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

JLV, I don’t know what it’s going to take for you to understand that if people show up to church in shorts, it doesn’t mean they are purposefully being disrespectful. If a church has specific rules however about attire, such as the Vatican does, then yes people should abide by the rules and not wear shorts. However here in the Midwest of the U.S., if men wear nice, clean clothes and they involve shorts, I’m personally not going to throw a hissy fit.

And furthermore, it seems you are purposefully ignoring the various circumstances which can cause people to show up to church in less than “perfect” attire. My husband while working labor-intensive jobs refused to allow his work interfere with attending Mass on Holy Days of Obligation, even if that meant rushing to church after work wearing his grubby sweater, t-shirt, or jeans. Are YOU going to be so bold to tell someone they shouldn’t bother attending church because you don’t like what they wear? If so, I believe your problem exists much deeper than what appearances show, and is something with your heart. Make this right with God before you drive everyone crazy. Thank you.

I’m just posting what our Bishops, and our Pope, are teaching us to do. What’s wrong with that? And I posted it because someone raised the question of whether it is possible at all to have objective standards. As Catholics, we look to our Bishops, and our Pope, for objective standards. So, these are the teachings of our Bishops and our Pope, these are the objective standards for Catholics (and non-Catholic visitors) to follow, when visiting Catholic churches.

 

[spunjalebi]

Okay JLV, what are you going to do about it? No offense but you can post and post and post till kingdom come, but I am really wondering what you think you’re going to accomplish.

Until the day comes where every single diocese in the entire world receives formal instructions that men aren’t allowed to wear shorts, women aren’t allowed to wear jeans, pants, slacks, trousers, sleeveless tops, or have their calves and knees showing unless they want to be forbidden from church attendance and possibly excommunicated, what do you think you are accomplishing here? Hmm?

And you still haven’t answered how people who may not be wearing perfect clothes should handle going to church right after the job. Or are you implying that they shouldn’t bother going to church anyway? For the record, my husband refused to not go to church simply because his job at the time required him to wear grungy clothes. I’ve seen people at church wearing nursing scrubs, but then again how dare they show up in those clothes since it’s not appropriate? Or better yet, why can’t they just find a different church to go to?

 

[EasterJoy]

JLV, I don’t know what it’s going to take for you to understand that if people show up to church in shorts, it doesn’t mean they are purposefully being disrespectful. If a church has specific rules however about attire, such as the Vatican does, then yes people should abide by the rules and not wear shorts. However here in the Midwest of the U.S., if men wear nice, clean clothes and they involve shorts, I’m personally not going to throw a hissy fit.

And furthermore, it seems you are purposefully ignoring the various circumstances which can cause people to show up to church in less than “perfect” attire. My husband while working labor-intensive jobs refused to allow his work interfere with attending Mass on Holy Days of Obligation, even if that meant rushing to church after work wearing his grubby sweater, t-shirt, or jeans. Are YOU going to be so bold to tell someone they shouldn’t bother attending church because you don’t like what they wear? If so, I believe your problem exists much deeper than what appearances show, and is something with your heart. Make this right with God before you drive everyone crazy. Thank you.

One can ask why fewer and fewer people are being purposefully respectful without accusing anyone of being purposefully disrespectful. Believe me, Bishop Vasa does not have a diocese full of clothes horses. The Diocese of Baker is composed mostly of ranches and farms, many of them remote. I would give very very good odds that one could compare the dress for Mass in that diocese 100 years ago to the dress that is seen now and have a great deal of difficulty defending the idea that the ability to dress better does not exist there. It is not just that there are more people required to work on Sunday than in the past (although that is part of it, I wouldn’t doubt.) There have always been a few who came to Mass wearing far less formal clothing than they’d like or in a state below what they’d like. That is some people now, but it isn’t everyone now, and we all know that. Rather, people feel more free to wear casual clothing everywhere but everywhere, and it has spilled over into the Mass. The dress code for *gas station attendants *used to be higher than what is now expected at Sunday Mass!

We can also differ in opinions without telling someone who disagrees with us that they need to “make this right with God”. That is crossing a line. Please do not do that again. It is worse than a “hissy fit.”

 

[spunjalebi]

My apologies for the ill wording on my part. What I was attempting to say was that if this is such a huge issue that someone is having a hard time with, maybe the appropriate venue would be to ask God what to do about it, instead of repeating the same things over and over. If men wearing shorts to church is such a huge issue to anyone to the point where they are trying so hard to get someone to listen, I suspect that some other action should be taken.

I once had an issue with women wearing headcoverings (Christian women). It bothered me so much that I once implied to another woman that she shouldn’t do it. I probably deserved a slap on the face for even saying so and I realized that when I needed to do was think about the issue, study what the Bible said, and pray about it. Ironically enough, now I believe in covering BUT I do not do what I did in the past, by admonishing those who don’t cover.

I do think we are treading a dangerous line here-- I personally wouldn’t want to teach the idea that if we aren’t showing up to church in formal clothes, such as fancy dresses, suits, and ties, that one isn’t being respectful or modest. I’ve seen that sort of legalistic thinking in many Protestant churches and thought that I left that when I joined the Catholic church.

I would also assume that if one has the time and opportunity, they would dress nicer to go to church. If I worked a job that required gross clothing but I had at least 15 minutes to change, I would do it. Some people can’t. When I was in RCIA last year, there were a couple of men in the group who had to leave church right after and head to work. They had to wear their work dress code-- one was the t-shirt for a sporting goods store, and the other was a shirt with the name of the company on it, though not a t-shirt. They literally had to leave once Mass was done and book it to work. I am asking people to consider those situations and to at least give them a little wiggle room.

I believe for every 10 people, one of them probably dresses inappropriately because they don’t care, 5 may be dressing in ways which are inappropriate but aren’t aware, and 4 are dressing appropriately in a purposeful way.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

I think they’re called burkahs…but oh yeah that’s right, even women in fundamentalist Islamic countries still get raped and blamed for being temptresses.

True, but the Burkah is hardly a truly modest piece of clothing. Modesty is far more than just how much skin is covered. I would bet that the rates of rape in countries where the Burkah is commonly worn are probably not as low as we’d expect, as the Burkah demeans the woman, and makes her appear to be a helpless target with no identity.