Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

[Shin]

Well, I will say that modesty and its failure to be practiced is at the root of contraception, abortion, and the culture of death.

Amongst other vices…

Truly it’s practically the key to everything.

 

[Debora123]

Amazing how often women believe that the workings of a man’s mind automatically lead him to lust when he sees skin. It is about her intent and even a man can determine intent of a woman.

Men notice women but that doesn’t mean it is lust, even if the woman is wearing less than some other women may think is appropriate or modest. Most men are not THAT shallow. Men avoid being controlled and manipulated by attempts to either repress or exploit sexuality. Men are drawn to the feminine and for those of you that wear skirts, keep in mind that we men notice the way your hips move and the skirt sways. No, we may not see every aspect of your shape, but men like seeing the feminine. It is just an appreciation of beauty and not merely physical.

Men notice the shape of women and then men look to her face to see her eyes and a smile to consider what kind of personality she might have. It is rare that a man would go thru the mental effort to undress her in his mind. Just because men notice a tastefully femininely dressed woman and pays her attention is not scandalous. How rare is it that men actually have the opportunity to see this! Men appreciate a feminine good woman, so men are drawn to this and sometimes this may cause such a woman to feel uncomfortable. This does not mean that the men are ogling her. Whatever her feelings, those feelings are not the final arbiter of truth or reality.

It is possible to see and observe the beauty of a woman without lust. Maybe a review of JPII’s definition of lust would be helpful. It can be found in Love & Responsibility. Also Fr. Thomas Loya has some great talks on this subject.

Many confuse modest dress with respectful dress, when it comes to Mass. Often in life men see a women dressed inappropriately showing a lot of skin, then silently laugh because it is too over-the-top. Also no one has mentioned the correlation between use of Birth Control and the prevalence of women to dressing to attract. There are physiological and societal factors due to unintended consequences that are not commonly understood.

Certainly modern air conditioning and the invention of rubber (bottle nipples) has reduced normal historical breastfeeding which has affected the manner of dress. Breasts used to be considered more utilitarian, but now are considered more ornamental. This makes breasts more sexual. Of course respectful dress is a good thing, but historically it was not immodest for a woman to feed her hungry crying child, which would not have been draped because of heat. So what! OH MY, I MUST AVERT MY EYES. Big deal, if this was common!

I remember when I interviewed a young beautiful woman half my age for a professional job. She had a low cut blouse and she sat right across from me. I was distracted the whole time because I thought that she had dressed inappropriately for the interview. There was no lust. It greatly affected how I perceived her. Her manner of dress drew my eyes to where her cleavage was. I had to resist looking there not out of lust but just out of distraction. She did not get hired and I had no desire to “jump her,.”

No one mentioned the definition of lust. Lust is not attraction, desire, or mere appreciation of beauty. Men notice women but that doesn’t mean it is lust. (I have not defined lust either as I expect any woman accusing men of lust to know the meaning.)

The projections that women make about what goes on it the mind of a man are often twisted and the characterization of decent Catholic women as dressing like “hoochies” is misguided. Now I challenge any of you highly moral women that would take issue with my statements on a man’s mind to reflect on 1Tim2:11-15, and of course consult Love & Responsibility.

On this thread many women show quite a lack of respect for men by projecting men as being cads or lewd. This is mostly based of the perceived experiences of women and how women feel. I have little time for sanctimonious women because they seem to be too concerned with the potential thoughts of others and interpret most interactions based on their own projections.

I know I said I was done with this thread, but I would just like to thank this gentleman for his awesome post. As a woman, I appreciate his support of femininity and the natural, God given beauty of our bodies. He has made me feel the most respected and “whole” amongst all you others who are trying to say women should cover up 75% of their bodies. God created me, and he saw that it was good. Thank you sir, for this awesome message.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Well, I will say that modesty and its failure to be practiced is at the root of contraception, abortion, and the culture of death.

Amongst other vices…

Truly it’s practically the key to everything.

With all due respect, I think that may be an over-simplification. It certainly is a problem but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is at the root of contraception, abortion, and the culture of death.

The root is much deeper and it’s tangled, IMHO.

I do understand what you’re saying, though.

 

[Serap]

Amazing how often women believe that the workings of a man’s mind automatically lead him to lust when he sees skin. It is about her intent and even a man can determine intent of a woman.

Men notice women but that doesn’t mean it is lust, even if the woman is wearing less than some other women may think is appropriate or modest. Most men are not THAT shallow. Men avoid being controlled and manipulated by attempts to either repress or exploit sexuality. Men are drawn to the feminine and for those of you that wear skirts, keep in mind that we men notice the way your hips move and the skirt sways. No, we may not see every aspect of your shape, but men like seeing the feminine. It is just an appreciation of beauty and not merely physical.

Men notice the shape of women and then men look to her face to see her eyes and a smile to consider what kind of personality she might have. It is rare that a man would go thru the mental effort to undress her in his mind. Just because men notice a tastefully femininely dressed woman and pays her attention is not scandalous. How rare is it that men actually have the opportunity to see this! Men appreciate a feminine good woman, so men are drawn to this and sometimes this may cause such a woman to feel uncomfortable. This does not mean that the men are ogling her. Whatever her feelings, those feelings are not the final arbiter of truth or reality.

It is possible to see and observe the beauty of a woman without lust. Maybe a review of JPII’s definition of lust would be helpful. It can be found in Love & Responsibility. Also Fr. Thomas Loya has some great talks on this subject.

Many confuse modest dress with respectful dress, when it comes to Mass. Often in life men see a women dressed inappropriately showing a lot of skin, then silently laugh because it is too over-the-top. Also no one has mentioned the correlation between use of Birth Control and the prevalence of women to dressing to attract. There are physiological and societal factors due to unintended consequences that are not commonly understood.

Certainly modern air conditioning and the invention of rubber (bottle nipples) has reduced normal historical breastfeeding which has affected the manner of dress. Breasts used to be considered more utilitarian, but now are considered more ornamental. This makes breasts more sexual. Of course respectful dress is a good thing, but historically it was not immodest for a woman to feed her hungry crying child, which would not have been draped because of heat. So what! OH MY, I MUST AVERT MY EYES. Big deal, if this was common!

I remember when I interviewed a young beautiful woman half my age for a professional job. She had a low cut blouse and she sat right across from me. I was distracted the whole time because I thought that she had dressed inappropriately for the interview. There was no lust. It greatly affected how I perceived her. Her manner of dress drew my eyes to where her cleavage was. I had to resist looking there not out of lust but just out of distraction. She did not get hired and I had no desire to “jump her,.”

No one mentioned the definition of lust. Lust is not attraction, desire, or mere appreciation of beauty. Men notice women but that doesn’t mean it is lust. (I have not defined lust either as I expect any woman accusing men of lust to know the meaning.)

The projections that women make about what goes on it the mind of a man are often twisted and the characterization of decent Catholic women as dressing like “hoochies” is misguided. Now I challenge any of you highly moral women that would take issue with my statements on a man’s mind to reflect on 1Tim2:11-15, and of course consult Love & Responsibility.

On this thread many women show quite a lack of respect for men by projecting men as being cads or lewd. This is mostly based of the perceived experiences of women and how women feel. I have little time for sanctimonious women because they seem to be too concerned with the potential thoughts of others and interpret most interactions based on their own projections.

good post

 

[Serap]

Well, I will say that modesty and its failure to be practiced is at the root of contraception, abortion, and the culture of death.

Amongst other vices…

Truly it’s practically the key to everything.

Whaaa?

 

[Serap]

This thread sucks!!! Topics like this should be avoided on CAF. No one can ever agree.

I wore another tight sweater and fitted jeans today while walking my baby stroller. I wonder if anyone lusted after me. At this point, I’d be happy if someone lusted after me

No sleep and 2 kids later…I look like a disaster.

 

[CountrySinger]

This thread sucks!!! Topics like this should be avoided on CAF. No one can ever agree.

I wore another tight sweater and fitted jeans today while walking my baby stroller. I wonder if anyone lusted after me. At this point, I’d be happy if someone lusted after me

No sleep and 2 kids later…I look like a disaster.

To quote the woman at my Bible Study who hates me: “you are a bad woman”! How dare you wear something form fitting! Mumus for all! I want one with big flowers on it. Forget my pretty wedding dress, I’m just going to get married in a mumu!

Mumus might be the solution. Then we can all be stylin’ like Homer.

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://newdressaday.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/homer-simpson-muumuu1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://newdressaday.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/day-5-360-days-and-360-left-to-go/&usg=__ipDCJKZibwdRtJaw_Zb-mqW0VfM=&h=351&w=300&sz=51&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=B6qaer6HzKvu_M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhomer%2Bsimpson%2Bmumu%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-USfficial%26biw%3D1241%26bih%3D770%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=119&vpy=154&dur=56&hovh=243&hovw=208&tx=96&ty=115&ei=yUvHTO6xO4SqsAPJmI2LDQ&oei=yUvHTO6xO4SqsAPJmI2LDQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

QUOTE=CountrySinger;7204560]To quote the woman at my Bible Study who hates me: “you are a bad woman”! How dare you wear something form fitting! Mumus for all! I want one with big flowers on it. Forget my pretty wedding dress, I’m just going to get married in a mumu!

Mumus might be the solution. Then we can all be stylin’ like Homer.

Or Mrs. Roper (are you too young to know her?) Anyway, irrespective of the mumu she wasn’t the postergirl for chaste thoughts.

 

[John21652]

Well,it looks like respect for women is on the rise in Italy…:

.Women who wear miniskirts or show too much cleavage will face fines of up to 500 euros (£440) under new rules to be introduced by an Italian town

:crying:

 

[BlueSprite]

Amazing how often women believe that the workings of a man’s mind automatically lead him to lust when he sees skin. It is about her intent and even a man can determine intent of a woman.

Men notice women but that doesn’t mean it is lust, even if the woman is wearing less than some other women may think is appropriate or modest. Most men are not THAT shallow. Men avoid being controlled and manipulated by attempts to either repress or exploit sexuality. Men are drawn to the feminine and for those of you that wear skirts, keep in mind that we men notice the way your hips move and the skirt sways. No, we may not see every aspect of your shape, but men like seeing the feminine. It is just an appreciation of beauty and not merely physical.

Men notice the shape of women and then men look to her face to see her eyes and a smile to consider what kind of personality she might have. It is rare that a man would go thru the mental effort to undress her in his mind. Just because men notice a tastefully femininely dressed woman and pays her attention is not scandalous. How rare is it that men actually have the opportunity to see this! Men appreciate a feminine good woman, so men are drawn to this and sometimes this may cause such a woman to feel uncomfortable. This does not mean that the men are ogling her. Whatever her feelings, those feelings are not the final arbiter of truth or reality.

It is possible to see and observe the beauty of a woman without lust. Maybe a review of JPII’s definition of lust would be helpful. It can be found in Love & Responsibility. Also Fr. Thomas Loya has some great talks on this subject.

Many confuse modest dress with respectful dress, when it comes to Mass. Often in life men see a women dressed inappropriately showing a lot of skin, then silently laugh because it is too over-the-top. Also no one has mentioned the correlation between use of Birth Control and the prevalence of women to dressing to attract. There are physiological and societal factors due to unintended consequences that are not commonly understood.

Certainly modern air conditioning and the invention of rubber (bottle nipples) has reduced normal historical breastfeeding which has affected the manner of dress. Breasts used to be considered more utilitarian, but now are considered more ornamental. This makes breasts more sexual. Of course respectful dress is a good thing, but historically it was not immodest for a woman to feed her hungry crying child, which would not have been draped because of heat. So what! OH MY, I MUST AVERT MY EYES. Big deal, if this was common!

I remember when I interviewed a young beautiful woman half my age for a professional job. She had a low cut blouse and she sat right across from me. I was distracted the whole time because I thought that she had dressed inappropriately for the interview. There was no lust. It greatly affected how I perceived her. Her manner of dress drew my eyes to where her cleavage was. I had to resist looking there not out of lust but just out of distraction. She did not get hired and I had no desire to “jump her,.”

No one mentioned the definition of lust. Lust is not attraction, desire, or mere appreciation of beauty. Men notice women but that doesn’t mean it is lust. (I have not defined lust either as I expect any woman accusing men of lust to know the meaning.)

The projections that women make about what goes on it the mind of a man are often twisted and the characterization of decent Catholic women as dressing like “hoochies” is misguided. Now I challenge any of you highly moral women that would take issue with my statements on a man’s mind to reflect on 1Tim2:11-15, and of course consult Love & Responsibility.

On this thread many women show quite a lack of respect for men by projecting men as being cads or lewd. This is mostly based of the perceived experiences of women and how women feel. I have little time for sanctimonious women because they seem to be too concerned with the potential thoughts of others and interpret most interactions based on their own projections.

Bravo! Great post indeed! :clapping:

 

[Prayerfully]

Well,it looks like respect for women is on the rise in Italy…:

Women who wear miniskirts or show too much cleavage will face fines of up to 500 euros (£440) under new rules to be introduced by an Italian town.

:crying:

Let’s hope the next step is banning Speedos on men!!! Not only is it immodest, when worn on most men; it’s just downright scary!!

 

[John21652]

Let’s hope the next step is banning Speedos on men!!! Not only is it immodest, when worn on most men; it’s just downright scary!!

Too true!

 

[Serap]

Well,it looks like respect for women is on the rise in Italy…:

Women who wear miniskirts or show too much cleavage will face fines of up to 500 euros (£440) under new rules to be introduced by an Italian town.

:crying:

That’s just silly

 

[CountrySinger]

Let’s hope the next step is banning Speedos on men!!! Not only is it immodest, when worn on most men; it’s just downright scary!!

And they need to ban banana hammocks as well, shudders

And what is the definition of too much cleavage? Is a little big too much, or are we talking about hanging out so much that we might see a nipple? It is open to interpretation.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Women who wear miniskirts or show too much cleavage will face fines of up to 500 euros (£440) under new rules to be introduced by an Italian town.

I’ve been to Masses where people stand outside and make sure all the women walking in are dressed appropriately. If a girl tried to get in wearing a skirt above her knees, or a shirt that was too revealing, she’d be given a long sweater or skirt to put on from the dusty room in the back. I think this should be done at every Mass. You’d think good Catholic girls would know how to dress. But they don’t so let’s give them a multi-colored dream coat to put on–that 'el show 'em!

And what is the definition of too much cleavage? Is a little big too much, or are we talking about hanging out so much that we might see a nipple? It is open to interpretation.

My interpretation of too much cleavage is if the word “cleavage” has to be said.

** Note: added definition of “cleavage” **

Cleavage is the space between a woman’s breasts lying over the sternum revealed by a garment with a low neckline. It is associated with low-cut women’s clothing, such as evening gowns, swimwear, casual tops and other garments, designed to emphasize the display of breasts.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleavage_%28breasts%29

 

[Captain_America]

Some additional points:

(1) men as well as women can be ogled at. This is especially the case if they happen to have some noteworthy attribute. It’s unfortunate (at times), but there are also times when a person might be glad he’s getting the attention. It’s tough to generalize here. (I DO think women are MUCH better at giving men an unobtrusive once-over; men are much more obvious).

(2) men as well as women have modesty choices to make. Unfortunately, the range of male apparel has always been pretty limited, so it reduces the subtlety a good deal: it’s probably easier for men to know when they’re dressing immodestly.

(3) women as well as men like to flirt, even if married; there’s a nudge of positive self-esteem this generates (“I still got it!”). Even though this is the Catholic Answers board, I think a good deal of this kind of stuff is harmless. (I’d be apprehensive of a woman or man who INTENTIONALLY sought to flirt, rather than have it happen casually and spontaneously). I mean, at some point, we all take some pride in having some measure of sexual appeal.

(4) It’s clear (e.g., cleavage) that women can dictate the terms of an interaction. And that when men TRY to be sexually appealing, they just as often get laughs as real attention.

 

[CountrySinger]

Cleavage is the space between a woman’s breasts lying over the sternum revealed by a garment with a low neckline. It is associated with low-cut women’s clothing, such as evening gowns, swimwear, casual tops and other garments, designed to emphasize the display of breasts.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleavage_%28breasts%29

I have cleavage in very high necked tops. Aw, the joys of having big breats. And high neck tops makes them look bigger, as discovered by my mom when I was younger. So showing a little actually makes them appear like they are not trying to take over the world. A v-neck top coupled with a lace cami is God’s gift to me. And I don’t wear push up bras, otherwise, they would block my vision.

When I was a postulant in the convent, the outfits they had for us made my breasts look huge, that I would get guys just staring at me. It was hilarious! They were checking out a future nun! And I was wearing a long sleeved button down shirt, a sweater vest, a veil, and a long skirt. With a HUGE cross that hung down in that area, so maybe they were just staring at the cross.

 

[John21652]

I have cleavage in very high necked tops. Aw, the joys of having big breats. And high neck tops makes them look bigger, as discovered by my mom when I was younger. So showing a little actually makes them appear like they are not trying to take over the world. A v-neck top coupled with a lace cami is God’s gift to me. And I don’t wear push up bras, otherwise, they would block my vision.

When I was a postulant in the convent, the outfits they had for us made my breasts look huge, that I would get guys just staring at me. It was hilarious! They were checking out a future nun! And I was wearing a long sleeved button down shirt, a sweater vest, a veil, and a long skirt. With a HUGE cross that hung down in that area, so maybe they were just staring at the cross.

It has long been a major complaint of mine that far, far too many women have breasts that were purpose built to maintain eye contact. It has never been fair.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Hm, I wonder if God gave us breasts for a purpose.

To emphasize through low-cut shirts?

To be ogled at by strangers?

Hm. Toughy.

:manvspc:Warning; this poster has resorted to sarcasm]

Well…

 

[CountrySinger]

Hm, I wonder if God gave us breasts for a purpose.

To emphasize through low-cut shirts?

To be ogled at by strangers?

Hm. Toughy.

:manvspc:Warning; this poster has resorted to sarcasm]

Well…

Nope, they are for weeding out the bad guys! I find that guys that looks at my breasts instead of my eyes are losers. When a man’s response isn’t “I like two things about you, and they are the left one and the right one”, he’s a somewhat decent guy! Believe me, I’ve had slime balls have their jaws to the ground, it is funny now. I just joke that my future babies will be well fed.

I know that breast size has nothing to do with milk supply, but it quiets people down.