Immoral to have children?

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Definitely not saying having kids is a sin. I have a child and am pregnant with another. It just makes one feel the weight of the huge responsibility of it all, and I thought it’d be interesting to hear some perspectives.
 
So it’s not that they didn’t want to raise children, they just see another way to help. Would this still be a valid marriage?
Maybe.

It depends on what their intention was regarding the ordering of marriage to procreation and whether they excluded marital acts apt for the generation of children (i.e. per se ordered to procreation).
 
People being predestined to hell before they were even born and without any consideration for their faith and works in their life… that violates free will. That’s not Catholic teaching
No it’s not. It’s Calvinist double-predestination and is condemned.

It does not change my previous statement. Predestination is Catholic teaching and is de fide.
 
Well I have children, do you think I should repent for that? What an insulting thought process!
That’s CAF for you.

There are some pretty odd thought processes from various posters that sometimes just gets me scratching my head.

I’ve been on CAF for about eighteen years now. It’s only relatively recently that these kinds of things became prevalent.
 
Then what are you referring to? Please explain
Catholic predestination states that God, out of nothing but his sovereign will, has predestined certain people to eternal salvation. The sovereign, eternal, infallible decree will be fulfilled.

But that said, Catholicism requires us to work within a set of divinely-revealed parameters, outside of which is heresy. These are:
  1. God desires the salvation of all, that none may perish. Therefore
  2. God gives sufficient grace that all may attain salvation; but
  3. God has given man free will, and man is free to cooperate with or reject that grace; and
  4. God, through is own sovereign will, has predestined a fixed, unknown number of people to salvation.
That’s it. Calvinists deny #2, and so effectively deny #1 (which is Biblical), and #3. So the result of their affirmation of #4 is double-predestination.

Within this framework, the Church has allowed thought to flourish. So to the question of whether God predestines with or without consideration of foreseen merits is not defined, and the Church allows both positions. The Thomists hold to predestination without consideration of foreseen merits. The Molinists hold on to predestination with consideration of foreseen merits. Both are acceptable in Catholic thought, and outside of the parameters defined above, the Catholic Church does not definitively teach the details.
 
God, through is own sovereign will, has predestined a fixed, unknown number of people to salvation.
Does that mean that there is a cap total of people that can go to Heaven and after that Heaven is too crowded and nobody else can get in? How is that fair?
 
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porthos11:
God, through is own sovereign will, has predestined a fixed, unknown number of people to salvation.
Does that mean that there is a cap total of people that can go to Heaven and after that Heaven is too crowded and nobody else can get in? How is that fair?
No there is no “cap” but Catholic teaching is that the number of the predestined is both fixed (because God is immutable), and unknown. Without special revelation, no one has certainty of faith that he is one of the elect.

And it makes sense, because since there is no difference between God and his attributes, this means his will and his providence are both as immutable as he is.

As for “fair”, I refer you back to #3. God has given man free will. How this free will fits into the sovereign decree of election is where the Church has declined to define, which is probably a good thing. I tend towards the Molinist explanation, which for me it just makes more sense (while recognizing that it’s probably not a perfect explanation either).

So while affirming predestination as a divinely revealed doctrine, we also need to affirm in the same breath that man’s free will is factored into that plan, and that if anyone goes to hell, man is still responsible for it. This is what the Catechism means by “God predestines no one to hell” (against Calvinism), but in the same section affirms that man’s free will is accounted for in “God’s plan of predestination.”

The theology of predestination, while interesting, is also extremely difficult.
 
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So someone could be predestined to Heaven and even if they commit moral sin all their life it doesn’t matter if they were predestined anyway?

Maybe this is all going over my head, I’m lost
 
So someone could be predestined to Heaven and even if they commit moral sin all their life it doesn’t matter if they were predestined anyway?

Maybe this is all going over my head, I’m lost
No, it does not. If they commit mortal sin all their life and die in a state of mortal sin, then they obviously were not predestined to heaven. If they were predestined, they will make it to heaven, and God will somehow factor in their free will in ensuring this happens and that they die in a state of grace. Again, while no one knows for certain if he is of the elect, the Church recognizes certain signs that they may likely be of the elect. These include a love of the Church, of God, charity towards neighbor, love of the Sacraments, Scripture and other holy things, and a devotion to the Blessed Virgin.

Again, it can be over one’s head especially considering that the Church itself has refrained from trying to reconcile all the details while affirming what must be affirmed.
 
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The title of your thread about the immorality of having children indicates potential sinfulness. The fact that you are pregnant and seeking clarification on this is very alarming. God’s first command to humanity is to multiply. Implying that it is sinful is insulting to those of us who have children.
 
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Now that I’ve heard some thoughts from others I’d like to add additional personal perspective and some theology I’ve been pondering.

I fully intend to raise my children in the church, partake in the sacraments, and do my best to provide a rich example of walking the Christian path. But like I mentioned before, I can’t be so vain to think I’ll be more successful than some of the best parents in the Bible who have plenty of descendants that turned their backs on God. I don’t care if my kids go to college, get married, have steady employment, or anything else compared with my desire for them to have a relationship with the Lord. But isn’t it natural for me to worry about something as important as their salvation, and how my greatest examples of God loving parents in the Bible had children who probably aren’t in Heaven?

Second point to ponder: I had my first child pre-conversion. I wasn’t thinking that having a child would glorify God, I was thinking that children are a joy and raising the combination of my husband and I would be an unmatchable experience. In other words, it was a selfish choice. The birth of my child was actually what prompted my conversion, for so many reasons, including realizing that it was up to me to raise this child to be a follower of Christ.

For my second child, though I am a follower of Christ, I still worry and it still feels like a selfish decision. If I were a truly selfless person, wouldn’t I have rescued a poor parent-less child who had never known a loving home? After all, we are told to love our neighbor as ourselves. A parallel statement to that would be “love the children of others as you love your own child”. Because I chose to have a biological child, I denied another child the chance of a loving home. That child may never know a Christian family or be involved in church, not having much of a chance at salvation at all, and at the end of the day, my efforts for my biological child to follow Christ could be in vain.
 
But isn’t it natural for me to worry about something as important as their salvation, and how my greatest examples of God loving parents in the Bible had children who probably aren’t in Heaven?
Not in the way your are expressing here. You are expressing irrational levels of fear on this topic.

Do you have general anxiety or is it just about this topic? Maybe some spiritual direction could help you.
If I were a truly selfless person, wouldn’t I have rescued a poor parent-less child who had never known a loving home?
Not everyone is called to adoption. And it’s not either/or. You can have biological children and foster children or adopted children.
 
I’m not implying that’s it’s sinful to have children or you’d need to repent for having one. What I’m wondering is along this lines: in the Bible, Christians were told not to marry non Christians. Also in the Bible, Christian converts were told not to leave their non believing spouses. There were reasons for both situations. Paul also expressed his personal preference for not getting married, but never advocated for leaving ones spouse.

I’d also like to emphasize that my title says “immoral?” Not “immoral.” As it is just something I’m pondering during my constant self examination of am I following God’s will.
 
Is it really moral to have biological children? What if, though we put forth our best effort, our child or grandchild grows up to turn away from God?
Nuclear irony here - the mere question is it moral to have children is questioning God (“be fruitful and multiply”) and thus is already turning away from God.
 
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Can someone not of the elect also go to Heaven? I’ve never heard of this before
 
I was not blessed with children due to biological reasons. I can’t afford to adopt, so I will die lonely in my old age. Children are a blessing. I was a step father for a few years and really enjoyed it. I don’t know why some people dislike children.
 
One vows at marriage to lovingly welcome children from the Lord. This does not mean they have to even consummate the marriage (there are valid Josephite marriages) let alone try to conceive. As long as the couple uses moral means to avoid conception, they can adopt a thousand children from foster care, have both adopted and natural children, have foster and adopted and natural children, it is all loving.
Josephite marriages are always an option, however, they are relatively rare. Quite frankly, I’ve never heard of anyone being in one, i.e., deliberately choosing from “day one” never to consummate the marriage if it is otherwise a valid sacramental marriage. I suppose anything’s possible, and it is also possible that Josephite spouses would choose to keep this fact private and not broadcast it.

I would be interested to know if a Josephite marriage could later be dissolved by the Pope because it had never been consummated (ratum sed non consummatum). It’s probably pretty far-fetched to think that a married couple, pious enough to agree to enter a permanently Josephite marriage, would later divorce and seek to have their marriage dissolved, but again, I suppose anything’s possible.

Now, as for your comment — if I’m understanding it correctly — that a couple could use moral means to avoid conception (as opposed to living in a Josephite marriage, I assume), and as you say, “adopt a thousand child from foster care”. I always value your opinions and comments, TLL, but as far as deliberately seeking entirely to avoid having natural children, and adopting children instead, I’d really be interested to see a priest here on CAF weigh in on this. Where are you getting it, that a couple could choose to do this? Has the Church ever allowed this?
 
Your line of thinking is odd to me. God told mankind to procreate, the Church holds that we are co creators with God in procreation. God wills for people to have children even though He as our Father knows some may be lost. He still desires them! As far as your view of biblical parents, outside of the Holy Family there arevery little examples of parents I would consider better than most people I know in modern day real life. Are you familiar with Catholic theology on children and procreation and the sacredness of life?
 
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