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Paddy_Walker
Guest
Stephen Schneider (leading advocate of the global warming theory)
(in interview for Discover magazine, Oct 1989)
youtube.com/watch?v=gDM3T0-o3r0
- Status
(in interview for Discover magazine, Oct 1989)
youtube.com/watch?v=gDM3T0-o3r0
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O_F
Guest
Warming and cooling are NORMAL cyclical processes which have been there throughout the whole Earth history. Hysteria and desire to make money on scaring people is also nothing new under the sun.
New is how many people are being readily brainwashed without even looking into BOTH sides of the arguments.
there is a great book out there - Cool It - which sums it up precisely - GW is occurring but there is no need to faint and have convulsions over the issue - it is slow, cyclical and we can adjust to it. Unless you plan to make millions on stupid people by scaring them - but that’s a whole different issue
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O_F
Guest
I do not believe in scary -]movies/-] stories
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LisaA
Guest
YES! I’ve heard the author interviewed a number of times and while he believes there has been a slight warming trend (which seems to have ceased lately) the amount of additional CO2 in the air, the impact of the slight warming is not going to cause the sky to fall.
As one Rabbi noted, GW, enivironmentalism is simply a new religion. Ironically it takes a lot more faith to believe some of the claims of environmentalists than to believe Moses parted the Red Sea. The more their theories are debunked the more strident and shrill they become, yet the less credible. I think the high point (or low) of this movement has been Al Gore’s sale of Current TV to oil infested and supported Al Jazzera…priceless! As you said in the final sentence…it’s all about the money honey!
Lisa
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SamH
Guest
Is our climate changing? The succession of temperate summers and open winters through several years, culminating last winter in the almost total failure of the ice crop throughout the valley of the Hudson, makes the question pertinent. The older inhabitants tell us that the Winters are not as cold now as when they were young, and we have all observed a marked diminution of the average cold even in this last decade. - New York Times June 23, 1890OK, I realize this is pointless as the cult of climate change deniers will say that Scientific American and every scientific organization is part of the conspiracy. I also know that evidence and data mean nothing to them . But here goes!
scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=thousands-of-us-weather-records&WT.mc_id=SA_DD_20130116
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/08/16413805-noaa-2012-was-warmest-year-ever-for-us-second-most-extreme?lite
environment.nationalgeographic.com/environment/global-warming/gw-effects/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_global_warming
bnd.com/2012/12/13/2426838/senator-appreciative-of-corps.html#storylink=cpy
news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/12/ticking-arctic-carbon-bomb-may-b.html
spiegel.de/international/world/climate-change-scientists-forecast-dramatic-temperature-increase-a-870638.html
worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15512957-sea-level-rose-60-percent-faster-than-un-projections-study-finds?lite
scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=us-ranchers-struggle-to-adapt-to-climate-change&WT.mc_id=SA_WR_20121121
Yeah, those leftist cattle ranchers!
usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/22/15354660-worst-us-drought-in-decades-deepens-to-cover-60-percent-of-lower-48-states?lite
See below for the C.I.A. and military’s part in the conspiracy.Everyone knows that the CIA and military are commies! (Sarcasm)
nytimes.com/2012/11/10/science/earth/climate-change-report-outlines-perils-for-us-military.html?_r=0
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change
“Fifth ice age is on the way……Human race will have to fight for its existence against cold.” – Los Angles Times October 23, 1912
America in longest warm spell since 1776; temperature line records a 25 year rise - New York Times 3/27/1933
“Gaffers who claim that winters were harder when they were boys are quite right…weather men have no doubt that the world at least for the time being is growing warmer.” – Time Magazine Jan. 2 1939
It is now pretty clearly agreed that the CO2 content [in the atmosphere] will rise 25% by 2000. This could increase the average temperature near the earth’s surface by 7 degrees Fahrenheit. This in turn could raise the level of the sea by 10 feet. Goodbye New York. Goodbye Washington, for that matter.- - Presidential advisor Daniel Moynihan 1969
By 1985, air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half…" Life magazine, January 1970.
New Ice Age Coming—It’s Already Getting Colder. Some midsummer day, perhaps not too far in the future, a hard, killing frost will sweep down on the wheat fields of Saskatchewan, the Dakotas and the Russian steppes……Los Angles Times Oct 24, 1971
Arctic specialist Bernt Balchen says a general warming trend over the North Pole is melting the polar ice cap and may produce an ice-free Arctic Ocean by the year 2000. - Los Angles Times - May 16, 1972
A RECENT flurry of papers has provided further evidence for the belief that the Earth is cooling. There now seems little doubt that changes over the past few years are more than a minor statistical fluctuation – Nature - March 6, 1975
Forgive me if I don’t adopt the Chicken Little theory of global warming. We’ve heard it all before.
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lynnvinc
Guest
This is great. Thanks.
Of course since 1989 they did find at the celluar level a link between smoking and lung cancer.
And climate science has greatly advanced since then, as well. But Schneider’s message is completely relevant for all times, and what I’ve been saying all along – why take dangerous risks. And I would add, esp since mitigating CC at least down to a 50%, even 75% reduction can be done cost-effectively & thereby help the economy, as well as mitigate a host of other problems.
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lynnvinc
Guest
How about scary real possibilities/probabilities that may not impact us old fogies much, but may be harming our descendents badly?
How about buying insurance on your home…just in case some harm arises?
Or leaving some inheritance or wherewithal so as to help our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren survive and thrive?
My husband and I regrettably were not blessed with children, but I am bequeathing to other people’s kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, and so on my efforts to help ensure a habitable earth. I can understand that their own parents are so busy and burdened with immediate child-rearing that they cannot think much about the future, so God in His wisdom has allowed me the freedom to think about the future and do something good (or stop bad, that is) for the sake of future generations.
So I don’t blame any of you here if you are turned off re mitigating climate change, considering all the other heavy responsibilites you have (whether you be a student or parent of minor children), but would hope once your child-rearing days are over, you might reconsider and do something to mitigate CC and help the youth and yet-to-be-born.
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Erich
Guest
In post 75 on this thread, you outlined how you thought this could be accomplished (i.e. “go solar”, “get 100% wind generated electricity”, “Chevy Volt or Nissan Leaf”, “compact fluorescent and LED bulbs”, “artificial Christmas trees”, “low-flow showerhead, toilet”, etc. Guess you don’t remember what was in posts 77-82.
“Cost effectively” mitigating CC down to a 75% reduction? Not when you include the impacts to the economy.
As I mentioned in a previous post, at the end of last month, a comprehensive survey of U.S. energy trends by Bloomberg New Energy Finance found that U.S. carbon emissions are at their lowest in nearly 20 years, as reported in Britain’s The Guardian newspaper and in the online publication EnergyMic, among other places. At about 5300 megatons CO2 equivalent in 2012, they are almost 13 percent lower than at their peak when the global financial crisis erupted four years ago, and barely more than 5 percent higher than in 1990–the baseline for cuts in the Kyoto Protocol, which the United States repudiated.
We’re all still paying the cost of this 13% reduction, in the form of a down economy. And you want a 50%, even 75% reduction?
http://cdn.washingtonexaminer.biz/cache/w200-140e8bd10842c324ab0e7228ed9db7f5.jpg
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LisaA
Guest
I have to give you credit for sticking with your belief although I don’t share it. A couple of thoughts though; don’t you think that other people’s children and grandchildren are far more likely to be impacted by our grossly bloated spending, debt and deficits than the possibility that a) there is global warming and b) it will have a negative impact on future generations.
The debt, deficits and top heavy government are with us now and we are already seeing the impact. The great increase of dependency, on the State as Daddy or the Nanny State, is breeding an increasing number of people who will expect more and more while providing less and less to society.
I don’t have children of my own but it’s heartbreaking to me to see the beautiful children and their smiling faces although I believe the country they will inherit will be a shadow of the blessings I received thanks to the thrift, hard work and integrity of previous generations.
I’m not a bit worried about global warming because I don’t believe it’s happening to an extent of creating doom and destruction. But I AM very worried about this country’s future even though I’ll probably be long gone before the big crash.
Lisa
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lynnvinc
Guest
There are 100s of things we have done and are doing (with many more to be pursued), not just the ones I mentioned earlier – including I get my paper from the library recycling bin and use the unused side, take a hankie to wipe hands in public restrooms, we insulated the house in several ways, we’ve live close to work for 43 years, we keep tires inflated, hypermile, take reusable shopping bags, use cloth napkins and other reusable items, and 100s of other tiny to big things. The Volt is just the icing on the cake (and we’re saving hand over foot on that, as well).
Please read Natural Capitalism by Hawken and Lovins to understand how it can be done cost effectively - natcap.org . For example, one company redid their piping, so the pipes were straight rather than angling around their huge motor, adding the motor in afterwards. Due to much less friction in that arrangement, they required a much much smaller motor – saving them 90% in energy costs.
Years ago I was preparing a “Business & the Environment” course and got materials from a few businesses re how they reduced greatly, like 3Ms 3P program – Pollution Prevention Pays, and Dow’s WRAP – Waste Reduction Always Pays. The 3M CEOs were just trying to comply with upcoming regs in as less expensive a way as possible, putting the word out to all their employees to come up with such solutions, and to their utter surprise ended up saving $1millions. When they asked, “Why didn’t you come up with these things before, since it is saving us so much money,” to which the employees responded, “bec it wasn’t put to us that way.”
There was a plating company in MA that was trying to reduce its river pollution due to upcoming regs. They tried everything, but nothing worked, until they hit upon a closed-loop water system that recycled their water, taking out the pollutants (that were actually valuable materials). They figured their savings on water would pay for the system in some 2 years or so, but shortly after installation, the city main broke and water was cut off for 3 days, but they were able to keep up production, earning them enough money that it paid for their system within a week.
I could go on and on with story after story about how to save money while saving the earth. People who do not know that saving the earth is a gold mine of saving money and helping the economy, just haven’t tried to do anything yet (that goes for environmentalists as well as anti-environmentalists).
I’m saying that when you seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, ALL things will be added unto you. This is so true, no matter how much people might deny it and disbelieve the words of our Lord.
If people would just give life and God’s kingdom a teeny tiny chance, they will see I am correct on this, and their tiny baby steps will lead to larger steps, and goodness will bloom and triumph. It helps tremendously to say little prayers as one tries to do the EC (environmentally correct) things, and to have faith that one’s love makes even the smallest deed infinite, as Mother Teresa told us.
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LisaA
Guest
Look, you offer very reasonable steps that can be and are taken by many many non-believers in GW. I bet if you asked those who disagree with you on GW whether or not they recycle, are judicious about using their cars, use cloth napkins or cleaning rags you’d probably find a lot of kindred souls.
Quite honestly between recycling and composting, I rarely have a single bag of trash to be picked up. I take old tee shirts, dish towels etc and use them instead of paper towels. I have washable pads on my floor cleaner, I keep my thermostat low when I’m asleep or not at home (which is about 18 hours out of 24).
As to shopping I try to buy locally if possible, farm to table within 100 miles. I have a plain old push mower that I use.
I’m not saying this to try to pat myself on the head but to demonstrate that there is no reason to conclude that if we do not believe the sky is falling or that a cap & trade transfer tax should be implemented, that we don’t do what we can in our own homes. My grandmother did much of the same and she didn’t have a clue about weather patterns, she was just a very thrifty farmer’s wife.
What I find from MOST (maybe not you) of the GW supporters is the desire for some kind of big government solution with higher taxes and regulations to make our lives miserable and under the increasing control of the secular elites in Washington. If that is NOT your philosophy then why not spend more energy letting people know what they can do, if nothing else to save money.
Lisa
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O_F
Guest
Honestly, I do care about other much more grave things awaiting kids and grnadkids ( as our debt, for instance) to be worried about non-existent scares of “climate change”
However I do consider many of your proposals quite reasonable.
it’s the mass-media hysteria and heavy attack on fossil fuels ( which you will eventually find out are THE MOST ECOLOGICAL FOR THIS PLANET- just look into heavy side-effects on everything with so-called “green” energy - start with ethanol) which is really upsetting
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Paddy_Walker
Guest
this thread is about climate change. technically, the climate is always changing, and in a cyclical fashion. if it is not warming then it is cooling. climate is never static, never a straight line. and it is utterly foolish to imagine we can control the climate. can we stop the ice-ages? no. can we prevent the warm humid climate the dinosaurs needed? no.
no, no, no. it is a vain and a foolish thought to imagine we can alter the climate.
both ice-ages and dinosaur climates were caused by changes of a cosmic nature.
the continent of antarctica and the northern continents had to move to the south pole and arctic circle to gather ice to cool the climate, the earths orbit and tilt have to vary to vary the temperature.
continents have to move out of the way, antartica as a landmass has to go away from the south pole, the other continents need to open up to allow an uninterrupted ocean current around the equator to get those dinosaur and desert temperatures you are talking about.
i think you should start a second thread about self-sufficiency, things our ancestors did, bring back the rag-and-bone man from the war years, etc., etc.
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tomarin
Guest
I get your ethos, and I like it. However I have a question. Whenever I hear someone talk about the importance of buying local things, I always wonder – what happens when you want to eat something (say an avocado, or a grapefruit) that isn’t grown in a temperate climate? Do you go without? If you wanted to make chilli con carne how would you do so without chilli peppers from Mexico? Just curious.
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LisaA
Guest
My point was that when I CAN, I buy locally. I love strawberries and raspberries and our state has among the most delicious of varieties but the season is very short. During the season I buy flats and freeze, make jam, etc. If I want fresh strawberries in February I know they are from Mexico and that’s fine. I just think making the effort, when you can to support local businesses, farms and other producers is worthwhile.
IOW I am not a purist when it comes to buying locally but I do make an effort to do so when it makes sense. I am very fortunate to live in a state with a large agricultural base so I can get everything from meat to vegetables to milk to fish locally. Unfortunately I realize all states do not have this same opportunity so more difficult for those in other states.
Lisa
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Ridgerunner
Guest
At first I bristled at your post, but then I realized you said your state has AMONG the most delicious strawberries and raspberries. Undoubtedly you said that in recognition that THE most delicious strawberries and raspberries are actually grown here in the Ozarks.
i apologize profusely for almost jumping to a rash judgment.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Oh, and by the way, raspberries freeze well. Stawberries, not so much, but you can make frozen jam out of either, and I suspect it contains all the vitamins, etc that the fresh ones do. Whether it does or not, there’s nothing on earth quite so welcome as frozen strawberry jam on a homemade biscuit in January. Tastes just like fresh strawberry shortcake.
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LisaA
Guest
Ridge first appreciate your loyalty to your state as well. Our local berries are MUCH better than those rather overgrown but somewhat tasteless berries we buy off season. I do a lot of freezing during berry season. Raspberries are SO fragile that if you don’t eat them in a day they sort of turn to mush so better to freeze and enjoy them later. Freezer jam is ALMOST like fresh berries…YUM!
Many states have special crops and products produced locally and I know at least here there is a lot of encouragement to take advantage of our homegrown delicacies.
And it’s a good thing to do for the planet as well!
Lisa
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wittgenstein
Guest
Response to post 285
Umm your most recent evidence was from 1975(and even that was a minority opinion),most was from the early 1900s.
Computers and technology have vastly increased since then. Of course, I am not claiming that all science from all eras has equal validity (you are).
Please at least try to refute the current evidence (from legitimate sources,or is NASA, Scientific American, American Meteorological Society…ad infinitum part of the conspiracy?
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Umm your most recent evidence was from 1975(and even that was a minority opinion),most was from the early 1900s.
Computers and technology have vastly increased since then. Of course, I am not claiming that all science from all eras has equal validity (you are).
Please at least try to refute the current evidence (from legitimate sources,or is NASA, Scientific American, American Meteorological Society…ad infinitum part of the conspiracy?
)!
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Ridgerunner
Guest
One of life’s major joys for me is to sniff that sort of “pollen-y” smell a just-picked, sun-warmed strawberry has. That’s the one thing a home-grown strawberry loses, maybe within an hour.
One of life’s disappointments is that the law now prohibits minors from picking strawberries for money unless they’re family. When I was a kid, that’s how you paid for stuff you wanted. Um, I’ll mention that in some of the “pick you own” places kids still do. (shhhhhhh)
The “peak of the pyramid” in picking when I was a kid was to pick 100 quarts in one day. I never got to that level myself, but some did. Usually it was a late teenage girl, and usually only one could do it in any given season, if even one.
Uh, yes, the topic. Mmmmm. Stawberry patches only last so long. If unattended thereafter, they usually grow up in tree sprouts. Young trees are the biggest carbon-eaters one can have. Sooooo, if one wants to sequester carbon for the sake of GW, one could not do much better than to let trees take over an old strawberry patch.
Well, there’s also agrichar; plowing charcoal into the soil. I will be trying it this spring. Supposed to do a lot for the soil. Of course, you have to burn the tree limbs and brush to get the charcoal.
Charcoal in the soil will supposedly last for centuries, retains moisture and fixes nutrients.- Status