Importing foreign priests is not the answer. The Catholic Church's vocations crisis: LaCroix International Article

[jack63]

The Catholic Church’s vocations crisis - Catholic news – La Croix International

First, my experiences with priests from Africa and elsewhere have been positive. In the US it is hard not to run into them sometimes, and I have no complaints and only positive things to say with my individual interactions with them and their homilies. However, this article raised some issues from the larger view that I think are worth discussing.

Basically, the point of the article is that, except for some stand-out regions in Africa, there are not enough priests in Africa and most of Africa is not evangelized. The article was written from a European perspective, but the same ideas could be applied to the United States. Why strip good African priests from Africa where they are needed when you could use Viri Probati (older married men) as priests in Western countries?

I’d be interested in people’s thoughts and comments either negative or positive…

Objectively, the figures do not lie. It is a fact that the numbers of young men joining the seminary and being ordained presbyters are not keeping pace with the overall increase in the numbers of baptized Catholics. Nowhere. Not even in Africa, where some people would have us believe the situation is not so dire. And where they believe that the “vocations-rich” African Church will become the protagonist of some new, “reverse evangelization” of the now greatly secularized, established Churches of Europe and the developed world. They are very wrong.

The latest Vatican-published Statistical Yearbook of the Church shows that in Africa there are currently just over 5,000 Catholics for every priest. It’s even worse throughout Latin America where the ratio is upwards of 7,000 to one. Compare that to the Churches in Europe, North America and Oceania where the figure hovers around 2,000 Catholics for every priest.

There are a number of possible steps that could be taken to shorten this widening gap. But the most likely to be accepted at this time, also for historical and practical reasons, would be to change the criteria for admission to Holy Orders by expanding the pool of candidates to include married men of proven virtue – the so-called viri probati. Unfortunately, most of the world’s episcopal conferences have been reluctant or stubbornly opposed to exploring this option even despite gentle encouragement to do so by both Paul VI and Pope Francis. Instead, the bishops have opted for an easier and safer way forward – import priests from countries where, continuing the myth, they believe there is an abundance of vocations.

There is, again, a more objective reason why it is not a bonafide solution for a long established Church in the West to import foreign priests – especially from the younger churches of Africa where, despite rapid growth, they are still living in largely un-evangelized mission territory.

 

[HeDa]

People move to other countries and some priest have to follow them. Anyone who has been to Confession in a language that you or the priest don’t master can say that it is very hard. Older people also tend to forget the new languages they learnt as adults.

 

[jack63]

People move to other countries and some priest have to follow them. Anyone who has been to Confession in a language that you or the priest don’t master can say that it is very hard. Older people also tend to forget the new languages they learnt as adults.

Sure this explains a very small part of the imported priests, but check out another quote from the article below:

“Some dioceses in Africa and Asia have a third or even half of their diocesan clergy in other countries, for financial reasons. I know of one that has 83 priests abroad, while within the country evangelization is stagnating,” he lamented

I can understand sending a handful of priests along when people emigrate from a certain country. This is not what is going on here. The US and Europe are importing a significant number of foreign priests to make up for their vocation crisis…they are not just importing a handful of foreign priests to minister to their own people.

 

[Anicette]

Yes we need priests in West…

In my diocese, rural one in France, where there is only 2 seminarians, and at best 1 sacerdotal ordination every 5 years, without African priests… Well the situation would be untenable, and mass, marriages, baptisms would be very difficult to celebrated.

On the other side, we cannot take all the ressources of a poorer continent to met our needs.
The use of foreign priests does not make the Church grow in the West. It is just a management of the brutal decline of human ressources: aging faithfull, and disapearing priests.

 

[Anicette]

People move to other countries and some priest have to follow them.

Perhaps in some newer nations (such as Autralia, for eg, I don’t know?).

Not where I am, in my diocese inn Europe. The African priests are sent where they need. Which means were the others priests does not want to go, and where the population is not very practicing, aging, poor or diseminated on large areas: rural, periruban, and more difficults neigborhoods.
And we have a lot of foreign priests to manage the decline.

In my parish, there is no pastor or a priest who have residency, or a rectory. The mass is served by an African priests who reside in another rectory. Without him, there will be no mass in the parish.

 

[phil19034]

The problem is really two part:

1. there are too many dissent bishops and vocations directors
2. there are too many dissent seminaries

In today’s Western world, where homosexuals can be open in society - homosexuals no longer have to “hide in the priesthood.” Also, in today’s society, the devil no longer has to focus on attacking the Church when there are enough secular lawyers. To quote a very good line from the movie “The Devil’s Advocate,” the law profession is the new priesthood. Therefore, I would argue that the vast majority of young men who want to join the priesthood are extremely orthodox in their faith.

Orthodox Catholics are either (a) not going to want to serve under a dissent Bishop, or (b) and dissent bishop, vocations Director, and/or seminary formation faculty are not going to want to ordain an orthodox priest.

Therefore, we often see better vocation numbers in Diocese where we have all three of the following: good bishops, good vocations directors, and good seminaries.

But if one of those three are dissent, the vocations numbers plummet because a dissent bishop, vocations Director, or seminary is not going to allow an Orthdox Priest to be ordained.

So to combat this: we need pressure holiness from our bishops. And we need to know who our vocations directors are and what kind of priest they are. And we need to know what kind of seminary our Diocesan priests are being sent to. If it’s know for dissents, then we need to encourage our bishops to use another seminary - even if that means the seminarians must go to another diocese, state/region, country, and/or continent.

Only AFTER we are doing this, can we look at potentially ordaining select married men from our current permanent diaconate ranks.

God bless

 

[jack63]

Yes we need priests in West…

In France would most Catholics be ok with Viri Probati (i.e. older married men as priests) to make up for the decline in priesthood ordinations? Would they have concerns, similar what @phil19034 discussed, about dissent seminaries and vocation directors, etc? What do you think?

 

[Anicette]

In France would most Catholics be ok with Viri Probati (i.e. older married men as priests) to make up for the decline in priesthood ordinations?

I cannot speak for all the Catholics.

The polls realized by medias show that among Catholics, the vast majority want married priests, women priests etc.
So I don’t think Viri Probati will annoy the majority of them.

I even think it will not be enough: one of our main problem here is the aging Church, because there had been a gap in faith transmission since the babybommers.
Then, adding Viri Probati will not solve the problem of the dying Church. It will be only a managing of the decline, but with no perspective in the future.
More, to form them will cost €€€€€ for a diocese (and our finances is very very hard to maintain!) for priests who would be active a very few years in the sacerdoce.

Many Catholics, (I am not sure,) would prefer younger priests, men, and women.

For the faithfull active in our Churches communities, more would disapprove married priests, I think. Some would be afraid of any changes in the discipline of celibacy.

I have not heard something from the local clergy near me until now. Priests are usually discreet and not openly militants for changements.

TO BE CONTINUED for the next question!

 

[Anicette]

Would they have concerns, similar what @phil19034 discussed, about dissent seminaries and vocation directors, etc? What do you think?

General context:
In France, I don’t know any diocese, seminary or vocation director who officially “dissent”.
We don’t have openly “gay friendly” parishes, as in California, or openly gay friendly priests.
We (my opinion, only) perhaps don’t have the same rampant homosexual culture in seminaries and priesthood. Yet we have some gay/pedophile abuse scandals.

Vocations are much more higher in urbans areas. The seminarians usually come from united large catholics families. the number decrease, and 1/10 are now from TLM communities.

Yet, I approve the observation of @phil19034,

When the bishop is conservative and dynamic, the vocations tend to be higher.
I will illustrate my purpose with the most shinning exemple. The diocese of Frejus-Toulon.

Frejus-Toulon is a very urban diocese of the South of France( Côte d’Azur). (a land where the ordinations are historically lower than in the West).

His bishop, since 2001 is Mgr Dominique Rey. All faithfull Catholics who cares of their Church know is name.

He is described as a “conservative”, “uncompromising”, who works for the “Catholic reconquest”. He is alos smarts, and is not the man who is noisy without any benefice.

He had visited Rick Warren american megachurch to find ideas.

He has transformed his Church. Since his ordination, the numbers of seminarists has gone from 15 to 90 now. (Paris’s diocese, the larger of the country =28 seminarists!)
Why? Because young men from others french diocese are attracted to his dynamism. He also implanted priests and religious communties from aboard in his diocese. (ex; some Brasilian sisters).

He favor all dynamism in his Church: charismatic communities and traditional one. Latin tridentine mass is favorised, evangelisation to muslins too (a big taboo in our country, because we discuss with others cults, but never evangelize!). He implanted a “Courage” group in the country.

He had a priest who evengelized to dancing night club.
He finds new ideas for mourning ministry.

For the public place, he goes to the walk for life in Paris (few bishops do it). He had openly opposed gay marriage, and now the extension of artificial reproduction without a father.
He had invited a popular representent of nationalist party to a political meeting. He big taboo too, because until a few years, we, French, cannot be Catholic in good standing according to the bishops’s conference and vote for the nationalists.

Dans le Var, Mgr Rey, évêque de la reconquête catholique

 

[angell1]

some people blame the church for homosexuals hiding in the priesthood in the first place, that Christian teaching didn’t allow them to be open in society. a lot of people these days, still regard the priesthood as a place where someone goes if they have some sort of abnormal sexuality. many older parishioners expressed concern whenever a new young priest gets ordained, since most of them openly say that they were previously engaged, or in relationships, they are actually worried that priests are attracted to women, I find it quite bizarre

but the problem is even bigger than that. many people are poorly catechized, or not properly evangelized

the priesthood as a calling is practically ridiculed these days. even among faithful cahtolics, if you suggest someone’s son try and sicern the priest hood, you will most often get a reponse like “oh, no, no, not my son, he’s meant to get married, I want grandkids”

 

[Anicette]

but the problem is even bigger than that. many people are poorly catechized, or not properly evangelized

oh yes!

the priesthood as a calling is practically ridiculed these days. even among faithful cahtolics, if you suggest someone’s son try and sicern the priest hood, you will most often get a reponse like “oh, no, no, not my son, he’s meant to get married, I want grandkids”

yes. Not my kid, in small families particularly! It also show how the faith is…

I think there is a problem with seminarists. A lot full of faith youngs men I know left the seminary. some for monastery/communities. Some fear engagement. I think the diocese is not attractive, and the age of parishioners, loneliness too…

 

[adgloriam]

import priests from countries where

FIRST: You don’t “IMPORT” human beings. Human beings are not IMPORTABLE.

That’s a captious misnomer that starts by dehumanizing the persons to next allow objectivafiying them as if they were objects and material goods. You can even import live stock, but you can not import persons.

SECOND: When a MISSIONARY, catholic or not, goes to another country there’s a need for them and for their work. PERIOD. Cultural or ethnic differences shouldn’t be made because the PERSON of the MISSIONARY is a quintessential example when any such differences become secondary - to redundant.

THIRD: Vocation crisis is a problem in of itself. There’s no overlap or distinction to be made between foreign or domestic missionaries.

FOURTH: VOCATION CRISIS IS A PROBLEM, as a cause there is a nexus to increased foreign missionaries.

Meaning: The vocation crisis does not make foreign missionaries a problem.

 

[jack63]

While I agree there is a short term need for missionary priests to the US and Europe, the long-term need for missionary priests is a fair discussion.

I think the fact the priests are “foreign” is relevant because, in this case, you are pulling priests from Africa which is largely not evangelized and where there are few priests per lay person.

As for your other comments, I know better by now than to get in a discussion with you on word choice…

 

[ZMystiCat]

The latest Vatican-published Statistical Yearbook of the Church shows that in Africa there are currently just over 5,000 Catholics for every priest. It’s even worse throughout Latin America where the ratio is upwards of 7,000 to one. Compare that to the Churches in Europe, North America and Oceania where the figure hovers around 2,000 Catholics for every priest.

Because no link is given, I tried tracking down the statistics. The closest I got was this report from 2017, which doesn’t explicitly separate Latin and North America. It simply gives a figure of 5000+:

The situation in America, where the Catholics per priest ratio exceeds 5,000 units and keeps increasing throughout the period, is particularly critical.

While this is in-line with the situation in Africa, the major difference comes in the trends seen. Specifically, the number of priests in the Americas is increasing at a considerably lower rate than those in Africa and Asia:

The total amount of priests in the world in 2015, compared to 2010, has increased by 0.83% (from 412,236 to 415,656 units). While Africa and Asia show a sustained trend (respectively + 17.4% and + 13.3%) and America has remained almost stationary (+ 0.35%)

Or to do some rounded math, that means that Africa is seeing increases at 1600% higher rates than America, and Asia is seeing them at 1200% higher rates. (Asia is also in a much better position than Africa or America in terms of layperson-to-priest ratios, though it has the lowest percentage of Catholics of all areas considered.)

Now, both are also seeing rates of Catholicism grow faster than the rates of priests:

in Africa there is an increase of 19.4%…Intermediate situations with respect to the two described above are found in America and Asia, where the growth of Catholics is certainly important (respectively + 6.7% and 9.1%)

Again with some quick math, that is a 12% difference in Africa, 600% difference in America, and 44% in Asia.

Granted, while the numbers make Africa seem more stable, it doesn’t reflect the relative difficulty of being a priest in each area, so a pure number crunching game might be difficult. For instance, it doesn’t account for devotion of laypeople, which might require more out of a priest than dealing with a nominal congregation who doesn’t seek his services.

(Note: This is just to cover the numbers, since I don’t think the article did a great job of it.)

 

[Jehu2077]

When people contracept their whole marriage and wind up with only one son, human pride takes over.

 

[jack63]

A few things…

Some families struggle to have children and aren’t on birth control and sometimes they only get one or two children…you really just never know.

Also, natural family planning has been taught be the Catholic church for decades and is fairly effective. It is also very much encouraged by Pope Francis. His words…

‘Some think that — excuse the word — that in order to be good Catholics we have to be like rabbits. No.’

So yes it is a new reality in the last few decades that there are fewer children in Catholic famalies. This is not necessarily bad, nor does it mean that families aren’t following the teaching on birth control.

 

[jack63]

Thanks for your analysis. I like numbers.

It certainly looks like the number of priests is growing far faster in Africa than other places. While this is interesting, it doesn’t mean the article is wrong to say the ratio of priests to lay people in Africa is still very low and much of Africa is not evangelized.

 

[adgloriam]

As for your other comments, I know better by now than to get in a discussion with you on word choice…

Because, I’ve met over a hundred catholic missionaries and not a single one bothered mentioning the false problematic that pundit you linked is posing to raise. Just down the street from me there’s a HUB where they pass through going either way, and I frequently go to a church mostly ministered to by missionaries. They’ve had that mobility for thousands of years, yet all of the sudden some reporter thinks he knows best…Fact is: former missionary countries are becoming countries of mission, and vice-versa. That’s just part of church dynamics.

And the reporter managed to mis-word a 7 word long subtitle, what noble craftsmanship…

 

[jack63]

Yes…it does seem like all of a sudden. The thing is this type of discussion (i.e. about viri probati) has not really been allowed in Catholic newspapers or online until recently. I’m grateful to have the discussion. I’d like to think I’m open to both points of view and can expect to learn something too.

Yes foreign missionary priests do a great job, but it is a fair question to ask why take foreign missionaries from a place where the ratio is 1 priest to 5000 lay people and send them to a place where there is a ratio of 1 priest to 2000 lay people.

 

[adgloriam]

The thing is this type of discussion (i.e. about viri probati) has not really been allowed in Catholic newspapers or online until recently.

Not meaning to contradict, pope JP II pondered and answered the question thoroughly (unlike the linked BBC/ABC pseudo-insider). A wealth of reflection and debate was produced that left little, if anything, to add. Popes Benedict XVI and Francis reiterated there wasn’t much to add.

Then, the “discussion” has been allowed (we get it on CAF weekly). And it isn’t any discussion, just a form of insinuation and suspicion and misinformation.

but it is a fair question to ask why take foreign missionaries from a place where the ratio is 1 priest to 5000 lay people and send them to a place where there is a ratio of 1 priest to 2000 lay people.

You do understand this is “THE CLASSIC ANTI-CATHOLIC BASH” with a new SPIN. There are 3 issues:
1ºclerical celibacy
2ºvocation crisis
3ºmissiology

Now, you intend to establish a direct link between the 1º through 3º whilst assigning blame to the church for “Censorship”. And pertaining to solve 2º and 3º through changing 1º (whilst, yet again, blaming the church).

1 priest to 5000 lay people and send them to a place where there is a ratio of 1 priest to 2000 lay people.

That’s an issue that missionaries should comment on firstly, not reporters. Then, the missionaries I’ve met said there wasn’t that much of a shortage because they have a “different kind of busy” in Africa that can’t compare in any way, shape or form.

What’s more, given those ratios moving a few dozen priests seems to unbalance the ratio heftily, you seem to forget a significant number of African priests spend prolonged periods in Europe for medical care, furthering studies, etc. Any African priest requiring dialysis is probably moving to Europe for the rest of his life. Plus, if you look at an African parish they are SUPER busy in that the laity simply FLOCKS towards the Shepard. Meaning, the ratio is offset because CHURCH ATTENDANCE will be MUCH HIGHER in an active parish. Plus, you need more availability in Europe because life is -incomparably- much more hectic, and tight schedules on part of the laity demands high availability from the religious. More so, because population in Europe is aging and the performance of funeral ceremonies will take the lion’s share in any parish priests time…