Importing foreign priests is not the answer. The Catholic Church's vocations crisis: LaCroix International Article

[CTBcin]

Do you know what year this map of the United States is from?

I’m not sure.

So when it says “Nombre de pretres incardines”…does this mean number of ordained priests? Why is this number sometimes greater than the “Nombre de pretres en activite” (I’m assuming this means number of active priests)?

I think it means “number of priests incardinated”/ “number of active priests”. The number of incardinated is often higher because it would include priests who are retired or not currently in active ministry for some reason. I think.

 

[Anicette]

the french map is from 2012.

@CTBcin has answer the other question, incardinés = active priests and retired priests (over 75 years old).

 

[Anicette]

thanks for the map!

I have a doubt ; is what we see in the USA map are the dioceses or the ecclesiastical provinces? (i have go to wikipedia and…)

Note: the numbers of people per priest indicated in the french map is the general population, not only the catholics (i think).

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

• there are too many dissent bishops and vocations directors
• there are too many dissent seminaries

Why does the Roman Catholic Church have too many bishops, vocations directors and seminaries in dissent, but the Russian Orthodox Church does not ?

Who does the Russian Orthodox Church doesn’t? There are surely a ton of them who are in dissent with Constantinople.

There were/are surely a ton of them in dissent when they would cozy up to the USSR and now Putin.

 

[CTBcin]

The map I shared indicates individual dioceses.

 

[AlNg]

There are surely a ton of them who are in dissent with Constantinople.

There were/are surely a ton of them in dissent when they would cozy up to the USSR and now Putin.

Do you see a difference between dissent in political matters and dissent in Church moral, ethical and religious teachings?

 

[jack63]

I would assume the many of the retired priests are still playing a role, and they are included in the overall number of priests vs. general population? For example, when it says more than 8000 priests per inhabitants in dark blue, this includes retired priests, n’est-ce pas?

If that is the case, within a decade or two, it looks like France’s vocation crisis will get much much worse quickly as retired priests can no longer help and pass away. Is this what you forsee?

It seems like it would be very difficult for foreign priests to make up for this deficit.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

There are surely a ton of them who are in dissent with Constantinople.

There were/are surely a ton of them in dissent when they would cozy up to the USSR and now Putin.

Do you see a difference between dissent in political matters and dissent in Church moral, ethical and religious teachings?

Yes. Assenting to communism is not in keeping with Christian teaching.

 

[AlNg]

Assenting to communism is not in keeping with Christian teaching.

How do you explain that Catholic priests in Poland collaborated with the communist government? The Catholic seminarians in Iasi, Romania, under Cearcescu had to undergo serious training in Marxist Leninist philosophy. These were things that were necessarily forced on them by the government. It does not indicate dissent, as much as a requirement for survival.
Free dissent from Catholic teachings on theology, morals and ethics is something quite different from doing what you had to do to survive under a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

Assenting to communism is not in keeping with Christian teaching.

How do you explain that Catholic priests in Poland collaborated with the communist government? The Catholic seminarians in Iasi, Romania, under Cearcescu had to undergo serious training in Marxist Leninist philosophy. These were things that were necessarily forced on them by the government. It does not indicate dissent, as much as a requirement for survival.
Free dissent from Catholic teachings on theology, morals and ethics is something quite different from doing what you had to do to survive under a totalitarian dictatorship.

Priest may have in Poland, but the Bishops didn’t. Pope John Paul II was the perfect example.

 

[nunsuch]

This is not entirely true. See, for example: An End to the Lies: The Polish Church's Secret Past - DER SPIEGEL

 

[AlNg]

This is not entirely true.

Of course you are right. But you don’t have too much choice under a totalitarian dictatorship.

The problem is really two part:

1. there are too many dissent bishops and vocations directors
2. there are too many dissent seminaries

This is the Catholic problem. There are also Catholic theologians, who teach at Catholic universities who dissent from Catholic teachings. This is a completely free choice on their part. There was no compulsion for them to take these dissenting positions. For example:

Holy Cross Theology Professor Says Jesus Was a ‘Drag King’ with ‘Queer Desires’

I have not seen anything like this type of dissent in the Russian Orthodox church or in their schools.

 

[jack63]

You know “I think” if you had older married men as viri probati priests, especially those who had previously been Deacons before, they’d be far less likely to be influenced by this nonsense and dissent.

 

[phil19034]

nunsuch:

This is not entirely true.

Of course you are right. But you don’t have too much choice under a totalitarian dictatorship.

The problem is really two part:

1. there are too many dissent bishops and vocations directors
2. there are too many dissent seminaries

This is the Catholic problem. There are also Catholic theologians, who teach at Catholic universities who dissent from Catholic teachings. This is a completely free choice on their part. There was no compulsion for them to take these dissenting positions. For example:
Holy Cross Theology Professor Says Jesus Was a ‘Drag King’ with ‘Queer Desires’
I have not seen anything like this type of dissent in the Russian Orthodox church or in their schools.

True about the colleges. However, I would argue that many of those colleges really ceased being Catholic a while ago when they refuse to submit to their local bishop.

I personally feel that the only reason Bishops hesitate in revolking a College’s official standing as a Catholic college is because they are hoping future leaders bring back the Catholic identity. But if they revoke a college’s Catholic status, it will most likely be gone forever.

 

[phil19034]

You know “I think” if you had older married men as viri probati priests, especially those who had previously been Deacons before, they’d be far less likely to be influenced by this nonsense and dissent.

Yes and no. It would still depend on the bishop and Vocations Director. A dissent bishop or vocations director is going to try to chase orthodox candidates out… even out of the diaconate.

 

[phil19034]

This is not entirely true. See, for example: http://www.spiegel.de/international...the-polish-church-s-secret-past-a-459791.html

If you are responding to me, I did acknowledge priests were involved. However, the Bishop that was mentioned in the article was a priest at the time. He didn’t become a bishop until approx 1999

 

[Anicette]

The map I shared indicates individual dioceses

thanks you!,
so, I make on observation on the geographical repartition on Catholicism on the territory:

In France the Catholicism is closer of faithfull than in USA.

if we observed the 2 maps:

TEXAS is as vast as FRANCE.

But in TEXAS we have 14 very very big dioceses.

in FRANCE we have 93 metropolitan +11 ultramarine dioceses =104 small dioceses.

in general all episcopal cities are at 1 hour drive maximum to the geographical limit of the diocese.

it is a chance for us, in European catholic countries.

 

[Anicette]

I would assume the many of the retired priests are still playing a role, and they are included in the overall number of priests vs. general population? For example, when it says more than 8000 priests per inhabitants in dark blue, this includes retired priests, n’est-ce pas?

Yes, they are included. and they play a great role as priests are never truly retired.

If that is the case, within a decade or two, it looks like France’s vocation crisis will get much much worse quickly as retired priests can no longer help and pass away. Is this what you forsee?

yes in a decade or 2 the situation will be worst and the situation of geographical implantation will be completely different.
In France, the median age for priests is of 75 years old. (one in two are 75 years old or more, in 2015). The number of ordinations plunged every years.

In my diocese, on 144 prêtres incardinés, I think there is approximately 10 under 50 years old. And only one or two seminarians.
Now, we do not fonctionned anymore on parish level, but on “pôles missionnaires” (a group of parishes, with mutual priests, cathechism, etc).
I think that in 20 years there will be a priest or 2 in the main cities who will deserve a very very large territory.

But on the ratio priest/faithfull, appararently the situation will be manageable, because the number of catholic will plunged because of the non-renewal of Catholic generations.

It seems like it would be very difficult for foreign priests to make up for this deficit.

They are just a temporary remedy.

What is the situation in USA?

 

[Anicette]

I disagree with the opinion that if there was olders maaried priests they will be far less “dissent”.
They are married with children. So much more possibility that they are much more flexible in doctrine such as sexual/anthropological/familial/societal topics.

More, deacons are meant to go on the margins, and see much more atypical situations.

 

[jack63]

Thanks for the interesting responses…

In the US things aren’t as bad…I found one article from 2012 that gave two different numbers for median age. The article a cited a couple studies. One study put the median age as 59, and another study put it at 64. However, the trend was that in the US the population of priests was certainly aging and priests are far more isolated than before.

Study of US priests: Aging is 'most striking trend'

Confirming what the U.S. Catholic community has been observing for many years -- from individuals and religious orders to dioceses and their presbyterates -- a soon-to-be released study on priestly ministry in the United States underscores that “by far, the most striking trend” is “the aging o

www.ncronline.org

I disagree with the opinion that if there was olders maaried priests they will be far less “dissent”.
They are married with children. So much more possibility that they are much more flexible in doctrine such as sexual/anthropological/familial/societal topics.

I’ll have to think about this one…thanks for the response though.